Why Trophies don't matter any more

Streetspur77 · Feb 26, 2018

Donki said:
When Blanchflower said “The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish.”. I don't think he's saying it's ok just to be a stylish team, or that winning trophies doesn't matter, he is saying you must be successful and win trophies in the right way.

Interesting how different people interpret things because to me that's exactly what he's saying and what people in this thread have been saying, of course we want to win trophies but is it THE most important thing? In my opinion no, it's about the glory which entails doing things the right way.

Wigan, Arsenal and man united in recent years have all won trophies without a process and we've won nothing but with one. I know which team I'd rather be at the moment.

mil1lion · Feb 26, 2018

Donki said:
For how long though? There has to be a limit of this surely.

Not as long as top 4 qualifies for Champions League. Consistent top 4 is priority for me. Although it also depends on the trophy. If we finish outside top 4 (still in the top 6) and win Europa League or CL then that trumps it because it's CL qualification with a trophy.

For me Arsenal didn't have as good a season as us last season despite winning the FA Cup. They missed out on CL. They're a club under pressure and as a result lost their best player in Jan.

Man Utd had a more successful season to us last season because they won a trophy but qualified for CL too.

I think every Spurs fan would say our best memories of Spurs were under Pochettino now and then Redknapp. Nobody is saying the cup winning teams under Ramos or Graham are our best years.

Krule · Feb 26, 2018

Sadly the inequality within the game will always be the same ...financial resources....But the joy of seeing a very rich club spend a fortune on a total flop and then watch a poorer rival discover, or better still create, an absolute diamond of a player is where the beauty of the game still lies. Wealth is never a guarantee of success if placed in the wrong hands....

Donki · Feb 26, 2018

mil1lion said:
Not as long as top 4 qualifies for Champions League. Consistent top 4 is priority for me. Although it also depends on the trophy. If we finish outside top 4 (still in the top 6) and win Europa League or CL then that trumps it because it's CL qualification with a trophy.

For me Arsenal didn't have as good a season as us last season despite winning the FA Cup. They missed out on CL. They're a club under pressure and as a result lost their best player in Jan.

Man Utd had a more successful season to us last season because they won a trophy but qualified for CL too.

I think every Spurs fan would say our best memories of Spurs were under Pochettino now and then Redknapp. Nobody is saying the cup winning teams under Ramos or Graham are our best years.

I agree totally with all you have said, my point is progression is great, the distance we have come since I started supporting Tottenham in the early 90s is great. But part of the progression we are on is surely to win something, no? Are we going to keep on progressing by constantly finishing in the top 4? The next step is to win something, if has to be, if not our progression has halted.

Streetspur77 said:
Interesting how different people interpret things because to me that's exactly what he's saying and what people in this thread have been saying, of course we want to win trophies but is it THE most important thing? In my opinion no, it's about the glory which entails doing things the right way.

Wigan, Arsenal and man united in recent years have all won trophies without a process and we've won nothing but with one. I know which team I'd rather be at the moment.

Were agreeing here but IMO glory entails winning something, in the right way.

mil1lion · Feb 26, 2018

'O Zio said:
I would love the CL to just be the actual league champions of each country. If anything that would make it even more prestigious and would also put an end to the debate about whether 4th place finish is better than winning a domestic cup etc.

Will never happen though as it would make less money.

So you dont want us to be in the Champions League because we finished 2nd? You dont think Barca and Madrid should both be on there?

Surely by being in the Champions League you're getting a fair reward for 38 games of hard work. The League is the marathon and we're in the toughest marathon in the world. The domestic cups on the other hand only qualify for the Europa League. I would prefer the former.

mil1lion · Feb 26, 2018

Donki said:
I agree totally with all you have said, my point is progression is great it is from where we have come when I started supporting Tottenham in the early 90s. But part of the progression we are on is surely to win something, no? Are we going to keep on progressing by constantly finishing in the top 4? The next step is to win something, if has to be, if not our progression has halted.

Were agreeing here but IMO glory entails winning something, in the right way.

It's all relevant to where we finish along what we win. The progression is to win trophies but remain in top 4. That's the next step. If we win a trophy at the expense of finishing top 4 then we've not progressed. The exception is if we win a European cup because the reward is equal to top 4 so we can get away with it like Man Utd did.

'O Zio · Feb 26, 2018

mil1lion said:
So you dont want us to be in the Champions League because we finished 2nd? You dont think Barca and Madrid should both be on there?

Surely by being in the Champions League you're getting a fair reward for 38 games of hard work. The League is the marathon and we're in the toughest marathon in the world. The domestic cups on the other hand only qualify for the Europa League. I would prefer the former.

No I just mean it would eliminate the situation we have at the moment where there's the eternal debate about whether it's better to win a cup but not be in the CL or forever finish 4th but never win anything. It would make the CL a massive reward for winning the league rather than having teams like Arsenal who just randomly finished in the top 4 for 10 years but never really did anything. It's called the "Champions League" after all, so why are most of the teams in it not actually champions of anything?

Donki · Feb 26, 2018

mil1lion said:
It's all relevant to where we finish along what we win. The progression is to win trophies but remain in top 4. That's the next step. If we win a trophy at the expense of finishing top 4 then we've not progressed. The exception is if we win a European cup because the reward is equal to top 4 so we can get away with it like Man Utd did.

Again we are agreeing on that point that top 4 for us is more important than a trophy, but e have finished top for now 2 seasons in a row, this season will be 3 season, we need to push for a trophy.

mil1lion · Feb 26, 2018

'O Zio said:
No I just mean it would eliminate the situation we have at the moment where there's the eternal debate about whether it's better to win a cup but not be in the CL or forever finish 4th but never win anything. It would make the CL a massive reward for winning the league rather than having teams like Arsenal who just randomly finished in the top 4 for 10 years but never really did anything. It's called the "Champions League" after all, so why are most of the teams in it not actually champions of anything?

We've just seen Man City blow away the Turkish league winners away from home for example. The Premier League is superior to a lot of Leagues so it would be silly not to have more than 1 team from the League. We have 5 teams into the knockout stage now.

I think of it as the various league Champions are like the hosts of the tournament and the rest are the challengers.

I dont see any issue with there being a debate about it. The obvious answer is just win the League and then everyone is happy.

mil1lion · Feb 26, 2018

Donki said:
Again we are agreeing on that point that top 4 for us is more important than a trophy, but e have finished top for now 2 seasons in a row, this season will be 3 season, we need to push for a trophy.

Indeed and I dont think anyone is saying winning a trophy is not important. We're just talking about priorities of one over the other. I certainly dont agree with the thread topic of 'why trophies dont matter' because they do. But so does qualifying for CL.

Krule · Feb 26, 2018

Totally agree with your view on the thread title...trophies still matter to the clubs but the winning of some of them (knockout cup competitions especially) no longer implies the same 'superiority' over rival teams as it did in the early years. Success is now measured in a Premier club's continual ability to turn over a good profit and they do that by qualifying for the top European competitions season after season. When you have so many brilliant sides in a competition like the CPL and there can be only one winner it surely must not detract from the performance of the other entrants ?
It's an ambiguously worded statement ...it's not that they don't matter anymore...it's just they are no longer the 'measuring stick' of a succesful football club.

smallsnc · Feb 26, 2018

The article, I believe, was about whether trophies mattered when rating managers. All things being equal, I would say yes; however, managers are not going against each other on level playing fields. Poch has done more with less the past couple of than about everyone else but I would say Conte did the job last year as he won the PL. Likewise Pep gets the nod this year should he win the league plus a couple of cups. However, Poch is close based on what he is doing with less resources and, would climb to the top if we managed to win CL.

What would really be interesting would be to switch Pep and Poch and see if they could each reach the same level of success with the other's squad. Some managers are great at getting top talent to perform but struggle if their team is not as talented, thus Pep was screaming last year that he needed more players. Other managers, can take young squads and get them to perform at a high level even though they may not know exactly how to manage a team of stars.

For me, Poch is the best manager in the world for Spurs situation even if he has not won a trophy yet.

Franc · Feb 26, 2018

Lilbaz said:
Dunno. When forest won the european cup their size compared to the madrids and milans was probably just as big as ours is to them today.
But yes there is massive inequality in football that needs to be dealt with.

And who happened to be their manager at the time? This just proves my point.

guiltyparty · Feb 26, 2018

Just caught this. Fantastic piece

JonnySpurs · Feb 27, 2018

A genuinely brilliant article in my opinion that stirs up a proper football debate where in all honesty, to be either side of the fence isn't the wrong place to be.

All fans want their club to win trophies, to not want to win trophies makes no sense at all as ulitmately football is sport of competition and competitions have winners.

With that said, my view is that in today's modern game there are only two trophies that really mean something special. The Premier League and the Champions League. Poch has pretty much said the same. For a club like Spurs, at this stage in our development, the PL and CL are our top priorities. They must be. The FA Cup and League cup are very much the distant cousins that you're happy to see if/when you see them but ultimately it's not a big deal if you go years without doing so. Don't get me wrong, I don't want that to be the case but that doesn't make it any less of a reality.

At a time where money utterly rules the sport, however sad that may be, domestic trophies cannot stand up anymore and whilst players will ultimately want to win every cup they play for in the season, without a deep squad full of £40+ million players, it is not realistic for that to happen.

I'd be happy for us to win the FA Cup this season but would I be devastated if we don't? Nope, sorry. By the same token, am I impressed that Arsenal have won it 3 times in past 4 seasons? Definitely not.

JimmyG2 · Feb 27, 2018

Supported Spurs for years including the Double season
when we were among the big spenders.
Loved it of course and trophies were the only game in town.

Never been so happy as now though
building not buying for whatever reason.
Harry Kane, king of the home growns.
Ambition oozing from Mauricio's every pore
but for success in the right way.

Great thread.
Well informed opener
Bus Conductor at his best
and not a swear word in sight.

Shadydan · Feb 27, 2018

Great article, headline is a little misleading (to be expected) but it's a rebuttal to those who say that Pochettino absolutely has to win a trophy to be looked at as a successful manager. I think as a club we do need to win a trophy soon just to get the monkey off our back and that it's been so damn long since we won anything but I don't think it's absolutely essential we win something like everyone like to make out, there's far more to it than that.

pffft · Feb 27, 2018

mil1lion said:
I think every Spurs fan would say our best memories of Spurs were under Pochettino now and then Redknapp. Nobody is saying the cup winning teams under Ramos or Graham are our best years.

Sorry mate, but definitely not every one of us. I would imagine it depends on how old people are. I, for example, have much better memories of Burkinshaw's Spurs than I do of Redknapp's.

In fact, much as I love Poch and this current side, I'd have to say my best Spurs memories come from the first half of the '80s. And the trophies are very much a part of that.

mil1lion · Feb 27, 2018

pffft said:
Sorry mate, but definitely not every one of us. I would imagine it depends on how old people are. I, for example, have much better memories of Burkinshaw's Spurs than I do of Redknapp's.

In fact, much as I love Poch and this current side, I'd have to say my best Spurs memories come from the first half of the '80s. And the trophies are very much a part of that.

Sorry I meant to say Premier League manager.

pffft · Feb 27, 2018

mil1lion said:
Sorry I meant to say Premier League manager.

In that case, yeah, you're probably right.

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