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The Mauricio Pochettino thread

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King of Otters

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Jun 11, 2012
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I’ll tell you what is egregious. It’s the opinion that unless you win a trophy, you’ve achieved nothing.

What Pochettino has done has got us into a position where we can play the world’s best teams and feel gutted if we don’t beat them despite outplaying them for most of the time.

Yes, we all desperately want us to get better and win the PL and the CL. That we can now say that sort of thing with a straight face is a sign of how much progress we’re making.

But some people are incapable of framing this type of thing in anything other than negative terms, which I believe reflects more on them than it does on anything that’s currently happening at Spurs.

It's egregious to hear that type of argument from bitter rival fans and thick witted tabloid journos, but it's baffling to hear it expounded by our own fan-base.

In terms of sporting achievement, what we've done under Poch is probably only surpassed in recent years in England by Leicester winning the Premier League, and in Spain by Athletico breaking up the Barca/Madrid duopoly.

Yes it's frustrating that we haven't had the trophies to show for our rapid progression as a club, but that doesn't render the progress that we've made, and the moments that we've enjoyed (the title races, the top 4 finishes, competing in the Champions League for consecutive seasons etc) meaningless.

Football is about the moments, and the feeling of belonging to something that you can be proud of, just as much as it is about winning trophies. We have the first two, which is more than most clubs, and the trophies will surely follow if we keep this team and this manager together.
 
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PeeEyeEmPee

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Aug 31, 2012
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I'm not trying to counter arguments you're making. I'm discussing things, with you.

This isn't about you.

I'm talking about the whole issue. Don't take it so personally.
it's not about me, but then it's a bit confusing if you decide to respond to my posts, but choose only to discuss the points you think others are making rather than the ones you're responding to.
 

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
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it's not about me, but then it's a bit confusing if you decide to respond to my posts, but choose only to discuss the points you think others are making rather than the ones you're responding to.

Is it that unusual to respond to a post because it raises interesting issues?

Does every post have to be an argument or a contest?
 

St José Dominguez

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Jul 15, 2014
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It's egregious to hear that type of argument from bitter fans and thick witted tabloid journals, but it's baffling to hear it expounded by our own fan-base.

In terms of sporting achievement, what we've done under Poch is probably only surpassed in recent years in England by Leicester winning the Premier League, and in Spain by Athletico breaking up the Barca/Madrid duopoly.

Yes it's frustrating that we haven't had the trophies to show for our rapid progression as a club, but that doesn't render the progress that we've made, and the moments that we've enjoyed (the title races, the top 4 finishes, competing in the Champions League for consecutive seasons etc) meaningless.

Football is about the moments, and the feeling of belonging to something that you can be proud of, just as much as it is about winning trophies. We have the first two, which is more than most clubs, and the trophies will surely follow if we keep this team and this manager together.

Poch has done an amazing job and put together a fantastic team caveat. On your last part, "and the trophies will surely follow if we keep this team and this manager together." This below is the age of this team by end of the 2022/23 season, in 5 years:

Lloris - 36
Trippier - 32
Sanchez - 26
Vertonghen - 36
Davies - 30
Wanyama - 31
Dembele - 35
Eriksen - 31
Dele - 27
Son - 30
Kane - 29

I'm going to make the assumption that this path, journey, road we are on is part of the current 'era' we are in and we're not talking about 10 years down the line. Assuming we are talking about the trophies surely following occurring with key players still being here. This era we are in has maybe 5 seasons left in it, 5 seasons to achieve our aspiration of winning the league. Beyond that and most likely sooner we're talking about something completely different, we'll have retiring players to replace, declining players to replace, the odd transferred player to replace and we are no longer this team. Sure Poch maybe will be here but it will no longer be building to something, on a journey with this group because most of them won't still be here. 5 years, 5 seasons and if it doesn't happen then i really don't think i'll see it in my lifetime, to believe it will would just be blind faith based on nothing.
 

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
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Poch has done an amazing job and put together a fantastic team caveat. On your last part, "and the trophies will surely follow if we keep this team and this manager together." This below is the age of this team by end of the 2022/23 season, in 5 years:

Lloris - 36
Trippier - 32
Sanchez - 26
Vertonghen - 36
Davies - 30
Wanyama - 31
Dembele - 35
Eriksen - 31
Dele - 27
Son - 30
Kane - 29

I'm going to make the assumption that this path, journey, road we are on is part of the current 'era' we are in and we're not talking about 10 years down the line. Assuming we are talking about the trophies surely following occurring with key players still being here. This era we are in has maybe 5 seasons left in it, 5 seasons to achieve our aspiration of winning the league. Beyond that and most likely sooner we're talking about something completely different, we'll have retiring players to replace, declining players to replace, the odd transferred player to replace and we are no longer this team. Sure Poch maybe will be here but it will no longer be building to something, on a journey with this group because most of them won't still be here. 5 years, 5 seasons and if it doesn't happen then i really don't think i'll see it in my lifetime, to believe it will would just be blind faith based on nothing.

That's quite encouraging, that this whole team is young enough that it could still be playing in 5 years time.

There's no reason to suppose we are any less likely to be successful in the next five years than our competitors, apart from the obvious financial considerations. The only reason for thinking we may not win much is because of the past, not the future.

And I don't believe there's any mystical or psychological or tactical factors at work to prevent us winning trophies,.It's just that compared with our competitors, we've been in a position to do so for far less time. That says plenty about our record in the PL era, but says very little if anything about our future potential.
 

St José Dominguez

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,592
11,648
That's quite encouraging, that this whole team is young enough that it could still be playing in 5 years time.

There's no reason to suppose we are any less likely to be successful in the next five years than our competitors, apart from the obvious financial considerations. The only reason for thinking we may not win much is because of the past, not the future.

And I don't believe there's any mystical or psychological or tactical factors at work to prevent us winning trophies,.It's just that compared with our competitors, we've been in a position to do so for far less time. That says plenty about our record in the PL era, but says very little if anything about our future potential.

Yes I'm very glad our best team I've ever seen us have hasn't occurred with most of the players being in their late twenties. We have time. I think our first season at the new stadium may be a little 'settling in' but if we keep Poch and this group together then I'm looking at seasons 19/20 and 20/21 as the time when we might do it. Key players will be in prime and it could be Vertonghens last hurrah.
 

TwoSaintsComeMarching

PIMP-tastic
Jul 26, 2008
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http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...tus-streetwise-dealing-referees-a8248361.html

So happy to hear Poch speaking like this. We definitely need to improve how we handle the darker side of the game.

Totttenham manager Mauricio Pochettino wants to stop being so nice and learn from the experts on how to put pressure on referees.

The Argentine now wants to copy Juventus’ dark arts after believing their confrontational approach put on referee Szymon Marciniak contributed towards their 2-1 victory over his side at Wembley in the Champions League on Wednesday.

Pochettino had no complaints with the Serie A side’s behaviour but knows his side need to develop a more streetwise mentality.

The Tottenham manager also pointed out that CEO Giuseppe Moratta and chairman Andre Agnelli were in the tunnel during the two ties while vice-chairman Pavel Nedved was heavily involved in the warm-ups.

Additionally, at least four Juventus players were involved in a heated exchange with Marciniak at the start of the second half.

“Maybe I and we need to learn, the coaching staff, like our players, how we put pressure on the referee,” he said. “In this type of game, every minimal detail can help you win the game.

“Look at the second half. Many fouls that weren’t fouls, many times they started the game with the ball moving, players inside the box on goal kicks – you need to take it again. In the Premier League this doesn’t happen. That situation is about experience.

“We of course complained about Barzagli’s stamp on Son in the first half. We put pressure on the referee. It was easy for the referee to manage us because we were very nice people, trying to help to play a game.”

Pochettino believes his staff can fulfil a vital role in winning matches, not just by coaching the players.

“Juventus are specialists, because they have habit to win, the habit to put pressure on the referee,” he said.

“The owner stayed in the corridor, in the tunnel before and during the game. It’s a club with a culture to try to do everything to help the team. It’s a massive opportunity to learn not only on the pitch but outside. It’s two games against this type of club – one on the pitch, one is outside of the pitch.

“Before the game was Agnelli, after the game was Agnelli, Marotta. I saw at half-time how they put pressure on the referee. They were complaining about the penalty in the first-half. Of course.

“Agnelli was on the field during the warm-up – and Nedved. We had two penalties in first half because of the handballs, maybe Jan Vertonghen was a penalty but it’s about balance.

“It’s about small details that count a lot in this type of game, even games that both teams can win. I believe those details can help the club to achieve what we want.

“I am not complaining. It’s only that I saw how they behave. It’s knowing what teams that reach the Champions League final the last three seasons, how they are. It’s good to learn.”

Tottenham know they must immediately find a way of putting disappointment out of their system when they take on AFC Bournemouth away on Sunday.

“There is no time to be sad, because the competition does not wait for you,” said Pochettino. “It is good sometimes to feel the pain, disappointment but sometimes you need your own time. Sometimes in one day you feel good and you feel fresh. Another player needs one day and a half, another player a few hours. More or less in 48 hours, two days, the process for everyone starts to feel better.”
 

PeeEyeEmPee

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Aug 31, 2012
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if he genuinely thinks that we lost because they were better than us at influencing the officials, then we're not really going to learn the lessons that we need to. of course certain decisions could've gone our way, but a fairly huge decision could and should have gone theirs too. there's really nothing wrong with just saying we're inexperienced at that sort of level and will get better, but the Mourinho-type conspiracy theories are cringeworthy as fuck.
 

Archibald&Crooks

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Feb 1, 2005
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if he genuinely thinks that we lost because they were better than us at influencing the officials, then we're not really going to learn the lessons that we need to. of course certain decisions could've gone our way, but a fairly huge decision could and should have gone theirs too. there's really nothing wrong with just saying we're inexperienced at that sort of level and will get better, but the Mourinho-type conspiracy theories are cringeworthy as fuck.
Where's the conspiracy theory in that article?
 
D

Deleted member 27995

if he genuinely thinks that we lost because they were better than us at influencing the officials, then we're not really going to learn the lessons that we need to. of course certain decisions could've gone our way, but a fairly huge decision could and should have gone theirs too. there's really nothing wrong with just saying we're inexperienced at that sort of level and will get better, but the Mourinho-type conspiracy theories are cringeworthy as fuck.
Don't think he is saying that at all tbh - then again I suppose as the individual who reads the piece it is how you in interpret it.
 

RichieS

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Dec 23, 2004
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if he genuinely thinks that we lost because they were better than us at influencing the officials, then we're not really going to learn the lessons that we need to. of course certain decisions could've gone our way, but a fairly huge decision could and should have gone theirs too. there's really nothing wrong with just saying we're inexperienced at that sort of level and will get better, but the Mourinho-type conspiracy theories are cringeworthy as fuck.
That's exactly what he's saying.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

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Aug 31, 2012
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Where's the conspiracy theory in that article?
you mean apart from the whole piece being about them being better at putting pressure on the ref while we were "nice people", and how their CEO and chairman winning the game "off the pitch" influenced the outcome on it? it really isn't that different to Mourinho putting Drogba's red card at the Nou Camp down to Frank Rijkaard talking to the ref at half-time, and if it was him talking like this after a game he'd be getting slated for it.

us going out on Wednesday had nothing whatsoever to do with our ability (or lack thereof) to influence the referee. it's not the "dark arts" we need to get better at, it's finding that little bit extra to get over the hump of closing out these type of games from the winning position we were in.
 

Archibald&Crooks

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you mean apart from the whole piece being about them being better at putting pressure on the ref while we were "nice people", and how their CEO and chairman winning the game "off the pitch" influenced the outcome on it? it really isn't that different to Mourinho putting Drogba's red card at the Nou Camp down to Frank Rijkaard talking to the ref at half-time, and if it was him talking like this after a game he'd be getting slated for it.

us going out on Wednesday had nothing whatsoever to do with our ability (or lack thereof) to influence the referee. it's not the "dark arts" we need to get better at, it's finding that little bit extra to get over the hump of closing out these type of games from the winning position we were in.
No, I mean where's the conspiracy?

So again, where's the conspiracy?

EDIT: And him offering that up doesn't mean he's saying it's the reason we lost, he's saying its one of the things he'd like to see us improve on.
 
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PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
Don't think he is saying that at all tbh - then again I suppose as the individual who reads the piece it is how you in interpret it.
I don't understand how you can interpret it any other way. to me it reads as "We need to learn how to start putting pressure on referees, as little things like that can be the difference between winning and losing. They spent the whole of half-time complaining, even their CEO and chairman, and then look what happened in the second half....they started getting all the decisions going their way. We on the other hand were way too nice, and it's ended up costing us. There's always two games against this kind of opposition, the one on the pitch and the one off it. If we get better at the one off it, it'll help win the one on it. That's what clubs that consistently reach finals do"

Maybe I and we need to learn, the coaching staff, like our players, how we put pressure on the referee,” he said. “In this type of game, every minimal detail can help you win the game.

“Look at the second half. Many fouls that weren’t fouls, many times they started the game with the ball moving, players inside the box on goal kicks – you need to take it again. In the Premier League this doesn’t happen. That situation is about experience.

“We of course complained about Barzagli’s stamp on Son in the first half. We put pressure on the referee. It was easy for the referee to manage us because we were very nice people, trying to help to play a game.”

“Juventus are specialists, because they have habit to win, the habit to put pressure on the referee,” he said.

“The owner stayed in the corridor, in the tunnel before and during the game. It’s a club with a culture to try to do everything to help the team. It’s a massive opportunity to learn not only on the pitch but outside. It’s two games against this type of club – one on the pitch, one is outside of the pitch.

“Before the game was Agnelli, after the game was Agnelli, Marotta. I saw at half-time how they put pressure on the referee. They were complaining about the penalty in the first-half. Of course.

“Agnelli was on the field during the warm-up – and Nedved. We had two penalties in first half because of the handballs, maybe Jan Vertonghen was a penalty but it’s about balance.

“It’s about small details that count a lot in this type of game, even games that both teams can win. I believe those details can help the club to achieve what we want.

“I am not complaining. It’s only that I saw how they behave. It’s knowing what teams that reach the Champions League final the last three seasons, how they are. It’s good to learn.”
 

SugarRay

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2011
7,984
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Yes I'm very glad our best team I've ever seen us have hasn't occurred with most of the players being in their late twenties. We have time. I think our first season at the new stadium may be a little 'settling in' but if we keep Poch and this group together then I'm looking at seasons 19/20 and 20/21 as the time when we might do it. Key players will be in prime and it could be Vertonghens last hurrah.

I have had a funny feeling for a season or two now that our first season back home will bring the title. Maybe it’s the romantic in me
 

PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
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No, I mean where's the conspiracy?

So again, where's the conspiracy?

EDIT: An offering that up doesn't mean he's saying it's the reason we lost, he's saying its one of the things he'd like to see us improve on.
the conspiracy is that he linked them talking to the referee with us supposedly not getting any decisions our way in the second half, and things like that being the difference between winning and losing. basically we did everything we could, but our naivety in the game off the pitch ended up costing us
 
D

Deleted member 27995

I don't understand how you can interpret it any other way. to me it reads as "We need to learn how to start putting pressure on referees, as little things like that can be the difference between winning and losing. They spent the whole of half-time complaining, even their CEO and chairman, and then look what happened in the second half....they started getting all the decisions going their way. We on the other hand were way too nice, and it's ended up costing us. There's always two games against this kind of opposition, the one on the pitch and the one off it. If we get better at the one off it, it'll help win the one on it. That's what clubs that consistently reach finals do"
I can, but you can't. It really isn't cringe worthy, that's just you being overly sensitive.
 

rocklink

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Aug 23, 2013
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the conspiracy is that he linked them talking to the referee with us supposedly not getting any decisions our way in the second half, and things like that being the difference between winning and losing. basically we did everything we could, but our naivety in the game off the pitch ended up costing us

So what's the conspiracy?
 
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