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Race for the Top 4 - 2017/18

tototoner

Staying Alert
Mar 21, 2004
29,387
34,059
Overrated is such an utterly meaningless word. I see it used all the bloody time and it is at best a disguised attempt to apply objectivity to something wholly subjective, such as a film, a novel, a game, a type of pizza, whatever. People like (or "rate") or dislike things precisely as much as they like or dislike them. No more, no less. If I say "That Titanic film is totally overrated", then I am saying that many people either like it less than they are purporting to, or should like it less than they do. Either way it's ridiculous.

Your use of the word is goes even further than that, because in the case of football teams (unlike a film) we actually have objective criteria with which to evaluate them: the most obvious being points scored. By those criteria Liverpool are a team basically as good as we are, this season, and no amount of opinion can change the facts.
Jeez a bit heavy man
 

guiltyparty

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2005
9,023
13,524
Wouldn't be so sure of them finishing 2nd they have a bit of a fixture jam around their CL ties with Man City, think they have Everton sawixhed between those ties or something.

Yep and their record in the PL after midweek CL games reads W1 D4 L2. Also one of those draws was Everton at Home and this time they have them away between the City games.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
Liverpool are mainly being lorded because they are in CL 1/4 final. Which mainly is due to a very easy draw. If they had our draw I’m certain they’d be out. So if they were 4th and out of CL you’d have to say that was an average season. Once city dump them out, I still believe we will finish above them. So for all the pyrotechnics what will that have to show for it. Hopefully we will finish above them and win FA cup. I have no doubt we are a better “team”. They are far more reliant on Salah than we are on Kane.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
The is the sort of post about us that we quote from RAWK and laugh at.

Liverpool are going to finish second. They are a ridiculously good team and you’re in denial if you cannot see that. Sorry.

Ridiculously good based on what ? Flat track bully wins ? I’ve highlighted their only 2 noteworthy results all season. If they beat city over 2 legs fair enough I’ll hold my hands up. But me feeling is they will be totally outclassed. Ok Chelsea are 7 points behind them, but Chelsea game in hand is home to Brighton. Plus Liverpool have to go to the bridge and have CL to contend with. I’d say Chelsea are more likely to catch Liverpool than us.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
Liverpool are mainly being lorded because they are in CL 1/4 final. Which mainly is due to a very easy draw. If they had our draw I’m certain they’d be out. So if they were 4th and out of CL you’d have to say that was an average season. Once city dump them out, I still believe we will finish above them. So for all the pyrotechnics what will that have to show for it. Hopefully we will finish above them and win FA cup. I have no doubt we are a better “team”. They are far more reliant on Salah than we are on Kane.

they are being lorded because they are in the top 4, and are an attacking team and scoring goals for fun most weeks. last season they had the best record against teams in the top 6, this season it has cost them plus a few other dodgy results. they have scored 73 goals this season, 28 of them coming from Salah.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
they are being lorded because they are in the top 4, and are an attacking team and scoring goals for fun most weeks. last season they had the best record against teams in the top 6, this season it has cost them plus a few other dodgy results. they have scored 73 goals this season, 28 of them coming from Salah.

And if we beat Newcastle in our game in hand we are above them. And in an FA cup semi final. My whole initial point was that they are “ overrated “ if you actually drill down into their results which I still stick to.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
And if we beat Newcastle in our game in hand we are above them. And in an FA cup semi final. My whole initial point was that they are “ overrated “ if you actually drill down into their results which I still stick to.

not overrated, because they are there. if we beat Newcastle we go above them correct, if we don't beat Chelsea then they could be above us, with us then both only having 1 real tough game each left (no guarantee either of us won't drop points in other games). ours will be City, whether they win the league the week before or not, they have the chance to create records that won't ever be matched. only bonus might be they will suffer a tough game midweek v Liverpool, but if they blow Liverpool away in the 1st leg, then they might rest players in the 2nd leg. Liverpool's tough game is away to Chelsea on the penultimate weekend, if Chelsea are out of the running then Liverpool might have an easy ride.

no one knows what will happen, but I'd not forecast our finishing position till we know where we are after we have played City at home.

in my honest opinion i don't think anyone is overrated if they finish in the top 4.

Oh and by the way I hate Liverpool big time
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
They are 1 point behind us with an easier run in than us. There isn't much difference between us. If you don't think they are a good side you can't think we are.

Before Liverpool played United, folk on here were proclaiming that they had an easier run-in than us. An independent analysis at that time, utilising various factors and data including league position of remaining opponents, calculated that Liverpool had the second easiest run-in of the top six - who did they calculate as having the easiest? Us! But folk on here were still stating it as a fact that they had an easier run-in. They had United away and Chelsea away out of the top six, and we had Chelsea away and City at home. So, we had a home game against top six opponents they didn't. Now I know folk are setting City aside as a team apart, but personally I believe we are more than capable of giving them one hell of a game. At the Etihad, we had most of our back line missing. They should have had a player sent off before they ran away with it. And we should have had a penalty for the serial fouling of Harry Winks*. Terror of City is a subjective feeling I do not share. Now Liverpool have lost one of those top six match-ups. On top of all this, none of the Liverpool easier run-in claims seem to take their away derby fixture as a hard game. This is a derby, Everton are at home, their manager is Big Fat Sam This is Just Exactly the Type of Game I Like to Feck Over a Team Like Liverpool as a Signature Result, Especially When New to a Club, Allardyce. As if that wasn't enough, Liverpool will have to play it in the middle of an incredibly difficult, and potentially demoralising, CL 1/4 final. We have no remaining game that is comparable in terms of difficulty or potential banana skin - outside of top six match-ups. Liverpool have also shown themselves more than capable of slipping up against bus-parkers who hit them on the break. Have we?

The point that @coys200 is making is not that they are not a good team. It is possible to believe they are a good team, as he has said several times, while also believing they are overrated. They are a devastating attacking team - we are hardly slackers in that department. But we can play, as we did today, with a false nine and roving AM's, just as they do. They can't play with a devastating nine on point - frankly because they don't have one. They are also not as good as us defensively. Afaiac, that is structural, based on how Klopp sets his teams up and not personnel specific. So, IMHO, we are more versatile than them, and we are more balanced as a team. We are moving up the gears, and have a reputation under Poch of finishing the season strongly. We have lost Kane and aren't panicking- if they lost Salah, what would the result be? You compare saying they are overrated to RAWKism - I have read innumerable posts on RAWK claiming we are shite but lucky cheaters. I haven't read many posts on here claiming similar for them - we all acknowledging that they can be devastating going forward. But I see lots of posts that seem fixated on how good they are to the point where they are IMHO overrated. @eddiev14 also compares anyone who wont except they are a ridiculously good team who will indubitably finish second to being in denial. I can't accept that. They are a ridiculously good team who are third (THIRD FFS, not first, not even second) by dint of having played a game more than us. They went out of both the domestic cups early and are still in the CL by dint of the fact that they have had a ridiculously easy group and knock-out draw. That is not a ridiculously good team. That is quite a good team with some remarkable, but still limiting, features - remarkable in the attacking half but not versatile tactically and overdependent on one prolific player. We have had to play the season away from home, dropping a lot of poor points in the first quarter when still adjusting, with crippling injuries, and will still probably have as good or better a season than them.

We have seen this overweening urge to weigh Liverpool mightier than they are, on here, several times before over the last decade. I warrant you this, if Liverpool were having an average season by their standards over the last eight years, finishing sixth once, seventh twice, eighth twice and ninth twice, and we where were we are, there would be plenty of voices saying we were only where we are because Liverpool, ArseAnal and Chelsea were having shite seasons. We have outplayed them twice this season, taking four points. Our position is skewed by dropping early points due to adjusting to Wembley and having a crippling injury list. They are a good team, capable of being devastating in the final third, but somewhat overrated IMHO.


*This isn't the place for debating merits viz. City, but at the start of the season I said that there were two stand-out teams in the division and we were one of them. Their pace at the top has been ferocious, but that aside, I believe without the Wembley readjustment and maybe a bit kinder on the injury front, we would, as coys says, be comfortably second in the league. I expect our lot to be well up for City, even without Kane, whether they have already won the league or not. Rather than overrating Liverpool, I believe a lot of our fans are still underrating us, to be frank.
 

dannythomas

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2004
3,757
2,813
In a strange way Liverpool winning keeps them further away from 5th place and the nightmare scenario of us finishing 4 th and Arsenal / Liverpool winning EL and CL .i know that's extremely unlikely but not impossible. It was extremely unlikely when Chelsea won the CL too. All we have to do is finish above Chelsea.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
For all I’ve said about Liverpool they aren’t far away obviously. Keeper still not totally convinced. Seem to have found a left back,definitely need at least 1 CB. RB not sure what’s going on with clyne, Trent doesn’t look ready at highest level so stil big issue there. They definitely need a Dier/wanyama type as it appears Can is off. Keita to come but still need that coutinho replacement. So after saying they aren’t far off it’s still potentialy 4/5 needed to be real title challengers and that’s not even really addressing depth. Thier exceptional front 3 have carried them somewhat this season. Can they reach those levels again next Season is open to debate. But they definitely need to thicken the squad and still address a couple of key areas. As said our league position is slightly false because of Wembley. We probably should be 6-8 pts better off than them this season due to Wembley and those early draws.
 

tototoner

Staying Alert
Mar 21, 2004
29,387
34,059
Why are so many of our fans obsessed with Liverpool.

We've been a better team on the pitch than them for the last 10 years and we'll soon be bigger economically off it than them also.

They only hammer us on RAWK and other media because they are jealous of us.
 

Westmorland

Active Member
May 21, 2014
290
449
Liverpool looked clueless against United when Two down. Their midfield has very little creativity. Give them space and that front three will beat anyone. Cannot see city playing six at the back like United did so Liverpool will have a chance.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Why are so many of our fans obsessed with Liverpool.

We've been a better team on the pitch than them for the last 10 years and we'll soon be bigger economically off it than them also.

They only hammer us on RAWK and other media because they are jealous of us.

Said it before, the obsession both positive and negative with Liverpool on here is bordering on RAWK levels, it's really weird.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
Why are so many of our fans obsessed with Liverpool.

We've been a better team on the pitch than them for the last 10 years and we'll soon be bigger economically off it than them also.

They only hammer us on RAWK and other media because they are jealous of us.

Not sure we will be bigger economically. Yes we will have a boost to our financials due to playing at wembley, new sponsor deal and nike deal, cl money and tv deal. But they have also increased capacity of their stadium got further in the cl than us and also got tv deal. Their sponsor and kit deals are bigger than ours and they also have a much larger fan base around the world.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
Said it before, the obsession both positive and negative with Liverpool on here is bordering on RAWK levels, it's really weird.

This thread is about top 4. Liverpool and Chelsea are the main rivals.

Besides that they are the most annoying fan base by a country mile.
 

tototoner

Staying Alert
Mar 21, 2004
29,387
34,059
Not sure we will be bigger economically. Yes we will have a boost to our financials due to playing at wembley, new sponsor deal and nike deal, cl money and tv deal. But they have also increased capacity of their stadium got further in the cl than us and also got tv deal. Their sponsor and kit deals are bigger than ours and they also have a much larger fan base around the world.
I meant with the new stadium and the revenue that will generate
 

newbie

Well-Known Member
Jul 16, 2004
6,051
6,342
Liverpool h
For all I’ve said about Liverpool they aren’t far away obviously. Keeper still not totally convinced. Seem to have found a left back,definitely need at least 1 CB. RB not sure what’s going on with clyne, Trent doesn’t look ready at highest level so stil big issue there. They definitely need a Dier/wanyama type as it appears Can is off. Keita to come but still need that coutinho replacement. So after saying they aren’t far off it’s still potentialy 4/5 needed to be real title challengers and that’s not even really addressing depth. Thier exceptional front 3 have carried them somewhat this season. Can they reach those levels again next Season is open to debate. But they definitely need to thicken the squad and still address a couple of key areas. As said our league position is slightly false because of Wembley. We probably should be 6-8 pts better off than them this season due to Wembley and those early draws.

Agree but also think Sala has papered over a few cracks I think attack has masked there Cms and defence.

Will Jose have third season syndrome next year? His on the edge atm of alienating the players?
 

ohtottenham!

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2013
7,497
13,030
Said it before, the obsession both positive and negative with Liverpool on here is bordering on RAWK levels, it's really weird.
Partly explained by the fact that Liverpool are a little like we are. Not financially steroided like City, Chels, and Utd,. We know that that’s going to be a given until the City and Chels financial balloons burst, but Utd will continue to be United anyway

Liverpool also play a similar brand of attacking football to us, and are a direct rival. You can bet if Arsenal were doing better, there’d be more focus on Arsenal. Then there’s the entertainment factor of the Liverpool fanbase, and that’s always fun!

Why obsess over what you perceive as the obsessions of others? Seems a little judgmental.
 
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