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Japhet

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Aug 30, 2010
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Such a fucking myth peddled by the English. Can’t have watched Ireland Wales or Ireland Scotland in particular.


I think the players are 100% up for every game but often fail to deliver 100%. Fans on the other hand seem to want to beat England more than anyone else and that passion from the terraces gives their team that little boost that can make a big difference.
 

E17yid

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Jan 21, 2013
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Irish crowds are so good as well. Always produce a great atmosphere and really put pressure on referees. Hate it when Ospreys go to Leinster, Munster and Ulster as you always have a full stadium making lots of noise and booing at any half penalty that’s not given their way.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
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I've seen quite a few reports/insights now that Jones has been absolutely beasting the England squad for the whole training period over this Six Nations, with the aim of getting fitter and fitter until the World Cup - which explains why some of them look so knackered currently.

It's clear he works them hard, if this is the case and it's by design then it remains to be seen if its a genius or a dinosaur move. Even so I don't think it excuses campaigns like we've just had, nor explain away some of the real problems in the team.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
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I've seen quite a few reports/insights now that Jones has been absolutely beasting the England squad for the whole training period over this Six Nations, with the aim of getting fitter and fitter until the World Cup - which explains why some of them look so knackered currently.

It's clear he works them hard, if this is the case and it's by design then it remains to be seen if its a genius or a dinosaur move. Even so I don't think it excuses campaigns like we've just had, nor explain away some of the real problems in the team.


England didn't look any fitter than anybody else IMO. The poor performances came about through using players out of position and sacrificing some areas to improve chances in others (i.e. strong lineout but lack of specialist breakdown players). We also rely hugely on a big ball carrying 8 which we didn't have without Vunipola and Hughes. Not breaking the gain line in possession led to an unacceptable level of turn overs, and apart from that there were a huge number of individual unforced errors. Some players are well past their sell by date now as well.
 

E17yid

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Jan 21, 2013
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England didn't look any fitter than anybody else IMO. The poor performances came about through using players out of position and sacrificing some areas to improve chances in others (i.e. strong lineout but lack of specialist breakdown players). We also rely hugely on a big ball carrying 8 which we didn't have without Vunipola and Hughes. Not breaking the gain line in possession led to an unacceptable level of turn overs, and apart from that there were a huge number of individual unforced errors. Some players are well past their sell by date now as well.

I’m biased obviously but thought we looked a lot fitter than England in our game. If that game goes on another 10/15 min I think we win.

Whether that’s down to the English boys playing to much club rugby or Jones working them too hard or whether we’re actually just fitter I’m not sure.
 

Japhet

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Aug 30, 2010
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I’m biased obviously but thought we looked a lot fitter than England in our game. If that game goes on another 10/15 min I think we win.

Whether that’s down to the English boys playing to much club rugby or Jones working them too hard or whether we’re actually just fitter I’m not sure.


If you look at the chart someone posted further back in the thread, the amount of minutes played by many of the English players is ridiculous compared to their opponents. There comes a point where fitness is no compensation for exhaustion.
 

E17yid

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Jan 21, 2013
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If you look at the chart someone posted further back in the thread, the amount of minutes played by many of the English players is ridiculous compared to their opponents. There comes a point where fitness is no compensation for exhaustion.

Though we’ve always been a fit team under Gatland I would say you’re probably right re the amount of mins played by the English compared to their Celtic counterparts, minus 1 or 2 exceptions.

I was definitely quite surprised, at the time, how much fitter we looked (not that that was any consolation) but less surprised when I saw that table a few days back. You can’t discount that.

Mental that we were the only team to not score a try against England. Fycking Italy managed 1 or 2. Even Ignoring the dodgy TMO call we left 2-3 tries out on the pitch that day. We’ve been really sloppy this 6N which is to be expected but still, was a frustrating campaign for us really.
 

E17yid

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Jan 21, 2013
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Another mention to the big man, the beast, the phenomenon that is AWJ. Signed up for the Ospreys in the last few days. Will go down as one of the greatest forwards to ever play for Wales.

Funny what 6 months does to players in rugby. People writing him off in the lions tour saying he’s passed it, average player etc etc and there he is this year, yet again putting in 8/9 out of 10 performances winning MOTM, bullying Itoje’s and Lawes at club level and international level too while seeing Lawes and Itoje struggle Kruis can’t even get into the team. Launchbury has been decent though to be fair.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
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Though we’ve always been a fit team under Gatland I would say you’re probably right re the amount of mins played by the English compared to their Celtic counterparts, minus 1 or 2 exceptions.

I was definitely quite surprised, at the time, how much fitter we looked (not that that was any consolation) but less surprised when I saw that table a few days back. You can’t discount that.

Mental that we were the only team to not score a try against England. Fycking Italy managed 1 or 2. Even Ignoring the dodgy TMO call we left 2-3 tries out on the pitch that day. We’ve been really sloppy this 6N which is to be expected but still, was a frustrating campaign for us really.


I don't think the All Blacks or the Wallabies will be shaking in their boots at anything that came out of the 6N.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
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Ireland aside the general standard was average.


The quality of the opposition made Ireland better than they were IMO. No disrespect to them because they beat what was in front of them but I don't think they'd have caused the ABs many problems.
 

E17yid

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Jan 21, 2013
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The quality of the opposition made Ireland better than they were IMO. No disrespect to them because they beat what was in front of them but I don't think they'd have caused the ABs many problems.

The AB’s can be beat but you’ve got to get them on a bad day and you have to perform at 100%.

I think a lot of teams can cause them problems but as you allude to in your post, not to many. We all know they can change gear almost at will and come 60min, if it’s a tight game and someone is causing them problems, they just step it up. Not to dissimilar to what it’s like when Italy play England or wales or whoever.
 

teok

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Aug 11, 2011
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...nsider-copying-irish-model-central-contracts/


English rugby must address the “taboo” subject of central contracts and consider copying the Irish model of tying players to the RFU following their dismal Six Nations campaign, according to players’ chief Damian Hopley.

Eddie Jones’ side finished fifth in the NatWest Six Nations Championship with many of England's British & Irish Lions players looking exhausted having played more than double the amount of club rugby than Ireland’s Grand Slam champions.

Ireland, Wales and Scotland, who finished first, second and third respectively, all use a form of central contracts and Hopley believes England must now consider following suit.

“In all these discussions around ring-fencing and season structure, you have to throw central contracts in there as well,” Hopley, the Rugby Players’ Association chief executive, told Telegraph Sport. “It is a huge taboo within English rugby and this is not the decry what the English clubs have done because without their investment the game would be decimated. When you look at the Irish and New Zealand models you have to say that it is working at international level so is that the answer? It may not be but you need to have these discussions in a mature and enlightened way rather than an arms-folded, let’s have a fight manner.”

Under the English model, the RFU effectively pays the Premiership clubs to release players called up for the national team under the terms of the Professional Game Agreement, which runs until 2024. The advantage of central contracts is that it allows unions to control its players’ workload and grant longer rest periods.

While nine of England’s Lions players started their season in the first weekend of September, the majority of Ireland’s contingent enjoyed an extra four weeks off. Owen Farrell, the England fly-half, has played 1084 minutes for Saracens this season, more than double the 435 minutes his Irish counterpart Jonathan Sexton has played for Leinster. On Monday evening it was confirmed that Bath’s Anthony Watson, the Lion who has played the most minutes of club rugby this season, will miss the remainder of the campaign with an Achilles injury sustained during the 24-15 defeat to Ireland.

Jones, who is contemplating resting some of his Lions players for the summer tour to South Africa, has claimed that his squad’s fitness levels are higher than ever this year according to GPS data. However, England captain Lewis Moody is adamant that it is plan that they look sluggish. “You can have all the stats in the world but sometimes you need to look at the performances subjectively and say they are out on their feet,” Moody said. “There was no lack of effort in any of the games that England have played. They were just lacking the same energy, the same zip that they had last year.

“A Lions tour is a special thing but it takes so much out of you. The last time England lost three in a row in the Six Nations was in 2006 coming after the 2005 tour, which isn’t a coincidence.”

A similar observation was made by Steve Hansen, the New Zealand head coach, who says there is a clear difference between the energy levels of the English and Irish players. “They (Ireland) have got central contracting which allows them to maybe have a bit more control over playing time and playing welfare than the countries where they don't have that luxury,” Hansen told BBC Radio 5 Live's Sportsweek programme.

“You see the result of that. Guys are coming out and even though they've been on the Lions tour, the same tour that the English boys have been on, they've had the opportunity to rest up and be mentally and emotionally and physically able to go out and play good Test rugby.”

Both the RFU and Premiership Rugby are adamant that the introduction of central contracts would be a non-starter in the short term. “We are only 18 months into the new eight-year Professional Game Agreement which is a binding partnership between club and country, and is not based on the central contract model,” an RFU spokeswoman said.

However, Hopley believes that the discussions need to take place straight away. “We are notoriously bad at waiting for problems to arise rather planning ahead,” Hopley said. “English rugby is not just about the English national team. It is not about taking from one part of the game to give to another, but finding a solution that works for everyone.

“You have got an inbuilt paradox where you are trying to get players to peak for nine games in the autumn and Six Nations and then peak for the clubs in between. There is a lot of talk about player welfare but when you speak to the guys on the coalface maybe that is not always a shared view.”

Hopley also reiterated his claim that Premiership Rugby’s proposal to extend the domestic season to ten months has failed. “The two-month extension is absolutely dead,” Hopley said. “That was always pie in the sky.”

Ring-fencing the Premiership does remain an active discussion ahead of the next meeting of the Professional Game Board in April. But even the principle of central contracts is likely to receive a hostile reception from club owners such as Exeter Chiefs chairman Tony Rowe.

“The RFU struggle to find the money to pay for the players they use and abuse once a year anyway,” Rowe said. “Central contracts sound great, but you can’t just cherry-pick the best players. If they want to contract our players, they would need to contract all of them so I would like to see where they are going to get money for that from.”
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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Anyone would’ve thought England don’t have 12 clubs to choose from.

Not to ignore the minutes played but let’s not forgot about the huge pool
of players England can choose from.
 

Arnoldtoo

The thinking ape's ape
May 18, 2006
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Anyone would’ve thought England don’t have 12 clubs to choose from.

Not to ignore the minutes played but let’s not forgot about the huge pool
of players England can choose from.

Well yes, but if the best players are basically burnt out, you can't just choose the 2nd XV and still expect them to beat the best the other nations have to offer.

I think central contracts are a sensible idea if you want to put the national team at the top of your priorities.
 

E17yid

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Jan 21, 2013
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Well yes, but if the best players are basically burnt out, you can't just choose the 2nd XV and still expect them to beat the best the other nations have to offer.

I think central contracts are a sensible idea if you want to put the national team at the top of your priorities.

I don’t agree. We’ve been hearing for months (prior to the 6N) about the depth England have (compared to say Wales)

We’ve even been hearing about how Armand or Ewells or x or Y should be getting time.

The point is that when you’ve got 12 clubs and a population of £52m the talent you should be able to source from that should be pretty adequate compared to a nation of £2.5m that only has 4 clubs (regions to choose from.

You’re exposing a hell of a lot more players at top flight level (Aviva prem) than Wales, Ireland or Scotland can. We physically can’t do it. I’d go further and say we hear how poor the pro 14 is compared to the Avica so I put it to you again, if you have 12 top quality clubs playing at an extremely high level (higher than their Celtic counterparts) the talent you should be producing should be second to none so it then becomes a question of why aren’t certain players getting exposure if there’s a genuine concern over players getting burnt out.

Like I said initially, I’m not saying there’s nothing in this minutes played debate but the way some are going on (not you or anyone in here) it appears they are laying all the blame at the lions and club level which conveniently ignores the fact you have 12 top class clubs and a fuck load more top class talent to choose from. I mean, should Wales come out and moan how we don’t have 12 clubs, play in an inferior league, don’t have the facilities and the population?
 

Arnoldtoo

The thinking ape's ape
May 18, 2006
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I don’t agree. We’ve been hearing for months (prior to the 6N) about the depth England have (compared to say Wales)

We’ve even been hearing about how Armand or Ewells or x or Y should be getting time.

The point is that when you’ve got 12 clubs and a population of £52m the talent you should be able to source from that should be pretty adequate compared to a nation of £2.5m that only has 4 clubs (regions to choose from.

You’re exposing a hell of a lot more players at top flight level (Aviva prem) than Wales, Ireland or Scotland can. We physically can’t do it. I’d go further and say we hear how poor the pro 14 is compared to the Avica so I put it to you again, if you have 12 top quality clubs playing at an extremely high level (higher than their Celtic counterparts) the talent you should be producing should be second to none so it then becomes a question of why aren’t certain players getting exposure if there’s a genuine concern over players getting burnt out.

Like I said initially, I’m not saying there’s nothing in this minutes played debate but the way some are going on (not you or anyone in here) it appears they are laying all the blame at the lions and club level which conveniently ignores the fact you have 12 top class clubs and a fuck load more top class talent to choose from. I mean, should Wales come out and moan how we don’t have 12 clubs, play in an inferior league, don’t have the facilities and the population?

Logically; statistically, you're certainly right. But it doesn't work that way.

If it did Australia shouldn't bother turning up for the Ashes, England would never fail to get to the quarters of every football tournament it played, we'd have more tennis players in the top 100 than Spain rather than a fifth of their total, and so on.

Don't ask me why, but it's not just a numbers thing.

England should have more better players than they have, but they don't. And if the 15 best players that they've got are collectively knackered, they're gonna lose!
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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Logically; statistically, you're certainly right. But it doesn't work that way.

If it did Australia shouldn't bother turning up for the Ashes, England would never fail to get to the quarters of every football tournament it played, we'd have more tennis players in the top 100 than Spain rather than a fifth of their total, and so on.

Don't ask me why, but it's not just a numbers thing.

England should have more better players than they have, but they don't. And if the 15 best players that they've got are collectively knackered, they're gonna lose!

I don’t think those sports are fair comparisons due to the international appeal of those sports and how important those sports are in those countries.

Australia live and breathe cricket so their 20m or so population means they should produce great players plus you’re only talking g about a handful of countries that actually play cricket so competition is limited.

Football for the opposite reason. It’s the most popular sport in the world (for most countries it is also their national sport)

Tennis, again, has huge world wide appeal with many countries playing so again competition is more fierce. No one likes tennis in the UK (coz it’s shit and boring and is for rich people) the Spaniards love it. Maybe if Tennis was more accessible to ordinary young people it would be different

When you’re talking about Rugby there’s what, 10 decent countries. In England Rugby is the 2nd 3rd most popular sport. It doesn’t even reach the top 3 in Australia. So, in rugby terms, England is the biggest country in population, it’s competition is limited (due to the low appeal world wide of the game) and it still ranks highly, compared to say Australia, in its national sport list which then determines how many people play the game.

Basically, there is no real excuse for England performing as badly as they did other than they weren’t very good. Yes some looked tired but then use your resources better.
 

Arnoldtoo

The thinking ape's ape
May 18, 2006
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I don’t think those sports are fair comparisons due to the international appeal of those sports and how important those sports are in those countries.

Australia live and breathe cricket so their 20m or so population means they should produce great players plus you’re only talking g about a handful of countries that actually play cricket so competition is limited.

Football for the opposite reason. It’s the most popular sport in the world (for most countries it is also their national sport)

Tennis, again, has huge world wide appeal with many countries playing so again competition is more fierce. No one likes tennis in the UK (coz it’s shit and boring and is for rich people) the Spaniards love it. Maybe if Tennis was more accessible to ordinary young people it would be different

When you’re talking about Rugby there’s what, 10 decent countries. In England Rugby is the 2nd 3rd most popular sport. It doesn’t even reach the top 3 in Australia. So, in rugby terms, England is the biggest country in population, it’s competition is limited (due to the low appeal world wide of the game) and it still ranks highly, compared to say Australia, in its national sport list which then determines how many people play the game.

Basically, there is no real excuse for England performing as badly as they did other than they weren’t very good. Yes some looked tired but then use your resources better.

And where in Wales would you say rugby ranks on a scale of 'meh' to 'religion'?

Not saying you're totally wrong, incidentally, just that it's not as simple as resources.
 

teok

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2011
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Discussing the introduction of central contracts is surely an attempt to "use resources better".
 
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