The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

guru said:

It looked to me it was more of an exercise to develop certain players

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I have to agree with this because their is a group of players that seem to play every week no matter how poor they play?

I'll say it again. Without knowing the strategy before the game it's very difficult to judge how well or poorly Burnett is doing. We know that part of player development is setting the side up unfavourably in order to increase the pressure on the players to think, adapt and show some resilience. McDermott has spoken about setting the side up to lose heavily in order to test the lads capability to suck it up and stop it becoming a cricket score.

IGSpur said:

At comparable clubs Smith-Rowe, Foden and Diaz all started for their clubs, ESW and Diaz scoring. City also facing a PL team. Skipp gets 7mins in the League Cup and Poch has done enough to earn praise from the fans, which will no doubt tide him over until next season. Incredible. As I say PL clubs suck at bringing players through and yet Poch still does less. It wont' change and neither will the views of the fans.

The stuff about the players not being good enough is nonsense. They don't need to be as good as Kane just better than our rubbish squad players to get chances. And when the few talents go abroad and seem to do well, when we know full well they would not be playing here, the 'not good enough' excuse surely can only run for so long. People don't honestly believe Sancho would be playing for England if he chose us over Dortmund.

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Whilst you have a point on Pochettino's use of our academy prospects, I've seen you make this point on Sancho a number of times now, and I don't agree. Young English players we've brought in from other clubs have generally been used very well. I think Sancho would far more likely have been a Dele or Dier situation than an Onomah or KWP.

edson said:

U18s 1-0 down

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They've been destroying everyone so this must be a bit foreign for them

The polish keeper on bench looks about 25 on OS lol just turned 17.

coys200 said:

The polish keeper on bench looks about 25 on OS lol just turned 17.

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No, he looks 35 at least.

U18s our keeper just saved a pen Binks sent off.

1-1 full time u18s Patterson with the goal.

Very hard point today our keeper stopped 3 one on one's and a pen,we had one cleared off the line, Markanday put one over the bar and their keeper pushed one round the post and Richards had half a chance in the first half he should have done better with.

A good point today Fulham should have won it but we worked hard for the point.

That Harvy Elliott was playing for Fulham,could not get in the game much but when he did he had a bit of Class about him.

Our best player on the day A.Shashoua

Warning I moan below. Skip this post if it grates you.

Joshua said:

I think it's a balancing act though. I don't think it would've been wise to have just chucked Skipp straight in from the start. Now that he's had a few minutes and looked comfortable the opportunities should come more regular now. Kane and Winks weren't just thrown straight in at 17/18 years old. It's easy to get carried away with excitement when you've got some talented academy players on your hands but it's also easy for them to get ruined by the pressure if asked for too much too early. Also I think the fact that CCV and Onomah who were two who seemed on course for the first team and have now fallen by the wayside has made him more cautious. If they're good enough though they will play.

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This is what usually happens. I think you misunderstand what I and others suggest. No one and I mean no one is saying let's throw players in. Just opportunites here and there. What is annoying though, is when you know your manager will give very very limited opportunities, when a League Cup game does come along you hope that the ONE academy player that dose come on may get more than 7 mins to prove themselves. As we know if we stand a chance of seeing them again, we are hoping for a very favourable FA Cup draw, and then even then, we may seem him for another 7mins. If I had any faith that Skipp might get 7mins a couple of more times this season in CM then I wouldn't care as much that he only got 7mins against West Ham. However it is likely we will not see him but for maybe 2 more minutes for the rest of the season. And no one will care, about the talents that we are wasting.

Ironically regarding Onomah and CCV they were treated with an incredible amount of caution in the first place and shown a general lack of trust, when they maybe should have had more faith shown in them to help with their confidence or if you don't trust them send them on loan. I didn't think you could get more cautious than 2mins every 5 games in an alien position, but here we are.

DezFitz said:

I really respect you as a poster and your knowledge of the youth players we have and the league in general is fantastic. But I feel like there is and has been a negative tone to your posts for a long time. You’re not happy about the youngsters getting enough chances rightly or wrongly, but it’s starting to grate with this constant undertone to all your posts. Even when Poch provides an opportunity its then turned into a negative because it wasn’t long enough. I want the youngsters to succeed as much as anyone and I also wish they would get more opportunities. And now it’s “incredible” because some of us are happy Skipp got some kind of opportunity. It has started to make this thread (which I used to believe was the best) one of the most negative ones to visit.

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Thank you and I appreciate that but my negative tone, is because 4 years in and being told constantly to wait until next season nothing changes, and we continue to waste an incredible amount of talent. To think that someone who has been watching Skipp since he was 12, posting and sharing information with everyone on here, talking about his development and say how I believe he is good enough for the first team isn't pleased for him is madness. On the contrary I'm very very pleased for him as he has deserved it, it just I don't have your optimism that this is going to lead to anything meaningful. Posters love mentioning the number of debuts Poch has provided, again not that great when compared to similar clubs and yet nothing has come of them as we barely see them again. I don't understand how more people aren't negative. It's not like we are winning anything where we can say they just aren't good enough. Our squad isn't full of top quality or winners, yet better handling of one of the best generations of English talent, which we have contributed to, may have lead to a stronger squad, or more funds available to improve our squad. Yes Levy should probably release more funds but there is a load of money to be made within if we were smarter.

BPR_U16 said:

I think in one way it's fortunate that Windy left the site, for he went on about it at length and still does on Twitter. It's almost like he has his own agenda.
In general I agree that we are not making best use of our youth players and we all know it's part of Levys plan for them to come through its why invested in training facility. But I still back Poch.
However, the incessant negativity in the thread is starting to wear then and I fully agree than this was once one of the best threads on the site and why have always asked for it's own section to allow various threads within it.

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If we aren't making the best of our youth players, why can't it be raised. If Poch kept making bad team selections people would go on about it. I still back Poch and always will, it doesn't mean to say he hasn't handled the academy poorly. We have this conversation yearly, in fact I post a lot less now as it's as tedious for me as it no doubt is for you, and last season I was told to have faith, and what I apparently was waiting and meant to look forward to was 7 mins for Skipp, and a game for KWP eventually, after back to back PL MOTMs.

spurs9 said:

Didn't TOB get a few injuries last season? It seems to happen quite a bit when our youngsters first go full time training with the first team (Georgiou, Edwards & Amos off the top of my head), so I wonder if the difference in the physical intensity between the two is too vast.

FYI, TOB has made the bench for our first team and made for first team mins (a whole minute) for us than Kirby has for Palace and IMO Kirby is the better player.

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Maybe but then if that's the case you'd hope the manager might have a different plan or maybe consider using the loan system more as clearly something isn't working.

Ye as I said all PL clubs suck at this, but I'd argue Kirby is in the better position now. Regarding who the better player is, not many people were saying Kirby was back when he left. I said I think they were equal and have different strengths but many were saying they were happier to lose Kirby than TOB. If there is any difference it was marginal, but now one is on the bench for an u23 side that can't win, after being taken under the wing of the manager.

Hypermusec said:

Firstly, I want to say I enjoy your posts in this thread and I do agree with most of what you say here - to some extent - about the academy boys. I would also like them to be given more chances and was a bit disappointed that skipp didnt get more than 7 mins, especially considering wanyama wasnt at his best. However, I think the situation with City and Arsenal isnt entirely comparable. Arsenal played brentford and city played fulham at home. We played west ham away. It’s a tougher match and more hostile environment. I agree that we need to expose our youngsters to this, but I feel poch likes to do this in a controlled and gradual way. We already had players out there struggling, west ham were piling on the pressure and poch reasoning might have been that he didnt want to throw him into too hot water...

Anyway, I do like to see the youngsters given more chances, but however there are some understandble reasons why skipp wasnt given more than 7 mins and eyoma, marsh were left on the bench.

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Thank you also. And I do get your post and see your point of view and agree to an extent. However, as always over the last 4 years it feels like there will always be an excuse why this player couldn't get on at this time. If there was a better attempt and bringing through players. Even other posters had mentioned bringing one academy player through a year should be possible. Maybe 2 games per season. or 3 15 mins cameos. I feel like even I'm lowering the bar now, but when that doesn't happen, I'm less patient at the reasons given.

At the end of the day the only the club suffers. We know we don't have an influx of money we know Levy won't release more money, but there are definitely ways in which we could be making money or improve our squad, but we will go in this cycle and not win anything and nothing will change. Surely we should start to do something different when we do the same thing with no different outcome.

Ironically as well with the homegrown rule and the way the squad is built, we are now going to have to look for English players who have managed to come through lower league clubs to fill out our squad. The stupid thing is we had just invested in our own players and given them chances we wouldn't have to go looking elsewhere for the Grealishes and Cooks. We are wasting money and paying a premium on players we have better than in the academy, which we can't spend on actual world class players and no one sees it as a problem. People see Cook come through at Leeds and Grealish come through at VIlla and conclude they must be better than what we have as they are playing football, when if they were in our academy they would be nowhere. It is such a ridiculous way of working and a poor way of managing our money and the squad. 8 times out of 10 if a Cat 1 wants a talent they will generally be able to poach them from other clubs, which means the lesser players are in the other clubs. These are the ones coming through which we are then quoted £30-40m to buy. The whole system is set up so the top clubs have the best players, and it is evidence that it works through club results and international results, and yet instead we end up trying to buy from the lesser clubs, then complain we don't have money to spend on top quality.

As I have said, some may notice, and some may not care but I post a lot less now, because it's very tedious getting into the same debate. I have my point of view others have theirs. I guess I have the problem of knowing and seeing the talent English football has to offer, I am doing my best to share as much of the information with everyone on this forum. The evidence is out there and yet seeing it go to waste, as they are 'not good enough' is so annoying. England got the furthest they've done in a World Cup in 20odd years with a squad where the senior players came from the first age group to win a Euro u17s (93s) of the new generation and supported by the even more talented age groups below, also filled with tournament winners. The players that have come through still aren't the best available as development from 19yos to PL football is incredibly poor and even with the lesser players we got to a semi. I believe England should win a World Cup and could do a France and have 5 first eleven of top quality players, but fans don't give a damn. The numbers coming through haven't even changed, but fans of each club continue to back and support the managers decisions to not bring through any players. We are literally seeing us spank France and Germany at youth level and then say they aren't good enough. Some fans are a least seeing it's not a meritocracy now but don't really care when chances aren't handed out. If Foden, Nelson, Sancho,Hudson-Odoi, Sessegnon et al were at our club you are kidding yourself if you believe they would have come through here. It would be the same old guff at that our squad is too good, we need to win trophies, if they are good enough they would get a chance, just believe. And when they inevitably don't make it, point to the 2 times they came on as a sub with 5 mins to go as a reason why they weren't good enough, or when they barged off the ball but a 27 year old unit as a young 17/19 year old in one of their 2 appearances and get told their too lightweight or not ready for first team football.

The only reason you guys know the players mentioned above are decent now is because 2 managed to force a move abroad really early in their career, one played in the Championship, and there is no doubt pressure on City to play Foden. Hudson-Odoi who everyone raved about and tore Bellerin a new one in preseason is getting the same treatment he would here, and I give it a year before people start claiming that maybe he wasn't quite as good as people claimed.

I don't doubt that I bring down this thread, as I said it's a major reason I have partially stopped contributing, but how anyone can expect to be singing praises after seeing a talent get on for 7mins is baffling. The complete mishandling of the talent from the 96s-99s is shocking and fortunately the 00s are being a bit more wary and starting to look abroad.

I know this discussion is ultimately pointless when England has bar none the best talents in the world yet fans of each club will say they are not good enough for their own clubs. How can I debate that?

We(Spurs) have had the best generation of talent we've ever seen at the club, we've had ex pros talk about how they are being wasted, we had a coach that said 2 of the best players he has ever coached were at Spurs. I've quoted various people from coaches to Directors that have said that the English age groups between 01-99 are the best they have ever seen in football, and still my and others frustration is met with bemusement and over-reaction. I once said we might as well pack in our academy and was told I was being stupid. But seriously, all this talent, and one player comes through in 4/5 years, and we're hardly making money off them as they get crap loans. What is the point? How few players need to come through over how many years, before fans go, 'maybe this is bad'. If you're bar on if they're good enough is whether the manager is giving them a chance or not, in the last 4/5 years the level of players we are producing is apparently no better than the Lee Barnard years, as the output has essentially been the same. Fans have gotten to the point where 7mins is seen as a great advert for the academy and are claiming that fans have an agenda for pointing out an incredibly poor return during England's golden age. The output is essentially the same for academies, in fact it is probably worse now than it was when the academies were actually crap. When they weren't producing players like we are now and yet people seem pleased with the progress. I don't even really know who I'm annoyed at most. I can't blame the fans for wanting to win, or just believing in the manager as they aren't privy to the talents about. I get we can't see them in training and I get why no one would just trust the judgement of a couple of fans that watch some u18s matches. I don't know whose responsility it is to help bring these kids through, so much investment has gone into it maybe the Chairman should be a bit more forceful but when certain clubs are winning trophies why would the charimen care, I thought ours would push it more, but then why would a manager risk playing academy players, when their job is on the line. The Premier League and FA can't do much I doubt, tehy try and chnage the rules by forcing more homegrown players on the bench but he manager controls when the come on. Really it's the players that cna control their own destiny and as we are seeing forcing themselves out of this ridiculous system. And I appreciate Soutgate who si making his decision based on the talent/ability of players he knows rather than the old method of choosing players with expereinces. What is the point in choosing a player who has played 30 games in the season if ultimately their ceiling/ability is less than the young player who is strugglign to come through in top 6 club. I guess as everyone says to me, Southgate has seen these kids in training and worked with them, and while some are against it or sceptical he seems to be doing a decent job of choosing the talent that he has worked with.

Luka Van der Bale said:

Whilst you have a point on Pochettino's use of our academy prospects, I've seen you make this point on Sancho a number of times now, and I don't agree. Young English players we've brought in from other clubs have generally been used very well. I think Sancho would far more likely have been a Dele or Dier situation than an Onomah or KWP.

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Defintely not imo. The biggest barrier to youth development is inexperience. Managers fear how a young player might handle playing in front of crowds, in pressure situations or against men. Dier and Alli had played numerous games in league football. The pressure was off, we knew we were getting players that could cope.

Sancho had played zero first team minutes he would have been a lot more on the Onomah/KPW level. Even Foyth had made 7 first team appearances and he struggles to get games. I don't know how hand on heart anyone can believe Sancho would be in the position he is now if he came here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Before, we were linked with him, not many people had seen him. They may have heard about him due to the Euros, but not everyone watched that. I've been following him for the last 2/3 years, he is a special talent but there are and other been others, who didn't manage to get themselves abroad and rotted in England. If he had stayed at City and not played there would be no hype over him. If he had come here, I'd like to know what you've seen in the last 4/5 years that suggests that a completely untested Sancho would have been selected ahead of Eriksen, Alli, Son, Moura,Lamela or even Sissoko.

For perspective and to show you how hindsight affects everything. I have been raving about TOB for ages, easily one of the best players I had seen at u16s at below. One coach said he's the best player he's ever coached along with Kirby. At u16/17 level TOB was I believe regarded as England's best CM at that age group. And I think he was. In that age group he was one of the most important players, in a team that had Sancho, Foden, Gomes, CHO. All the games he played in we cruised. He got KO'd in the semi, and England began to look disjointed. The game against Spain though we should have won, if we kept the ball in the last 5 mins again we looked so poor and ended up losing without him. He was crucial to that team. With him in that team we won the World Cup. Everyone had high hopes for him, but he was kept from playing u18 football and trained with the first team. Maybe had a couple of injures but since coming back from that great opportunity looking at him now everyone thinks he's rubbish and nowhere near good enough. If he had left and gone abroad he would be looked at differently. And that's the point. The development, handling and lack of trust in them means that they get stifled and then everyone concludes they were never that good in the first place. Could easily have happened to Sancho and would have if he was here as well. At the conclusion of the Euro u17s. TOB stayed and Sancho left, they were relative to their positions on a similar footing abilitywise (I'm trying to remember England youth watchers views at that time @JRSG may be able to confirm or not) yet their development curve from there has been drastically different . 95% of people wouldn't have seen them properly at 16/17 would just assume that Sancho was a lot better but I'd argue that isn't true, relative to what they did. Though Sancho is an incredible talent. The main difference is how they were then developed, one has gone up while the other has gone down. The fact Sancho's in blistering form exacerbates the difference, but if it they were reversed, Sancho would be training with our first team and I imagine TOB might be on Dortmund's bench at this point.

guru said:

Terrible performance today . Firstly Burnett has to go . There were no clear instructions coming from the bench , he is killing players off and not allowing them to play their game. It looked to me it was more of an exercise to develop certain players . Other then the goal Maghoma was awful and should have been taken off the pitch at half time . As much as I like Bowden he lost the ball with inaccurate passing more then once and continuously passes back or sideways , he is another one who has been off form lately but continues to be rewarded. Defence was woeful . Sterling was struggling to make anything stick and decision making was poor at times .oakley booth was ok in the first half but non exsistant in the second . Roles wasn’t on his best game , put a couple of good balls through, you can see he is a very clever player but not all are on his wave length which stops him playing his game . We continually slow the game down , take too many touches and hold onto the ball far to long instead of playing our attacking players through quicker

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How do you think Bowden is handling u23 football in general. I haven't seen a lot of them this year

edson said:

U16 lost 4-3,our keeper saved a pen in the first half and we was 2-0 up.

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Did you notice if Aird-Munn was playing for Fulham or not. He posted that he beat Spurs 4-2 and got an assist. So there may be some discrepancy in the scoreline. If he did I imagine he;s been released or on trial, which I can understand as he has never really caught my eye. Also suggests we're starting to cull for next season

IGSpur said:

Warning I moan below. Skip this post if it grates you.



This is what usually happens. I think you misunderstand what I and others suggest. No one and I mean no one is saying let's throw players in. Just opportunites here and there. What is annoying though, is when you know your manager will give very very limited opportunities, when a League Cup game does come along you hope that the ONE academy player that dose come on may get more than 7 mins to prove themselves. As we know if we stand a chance of seeing them again, we are hoping for a very favourable FA Cup draw, and then even then, we may seem him for another 7mins. If I had any faith that Skipp might get 7mins a couple of more times this season in CM then I wouldn't care as much that he only got 7mins against West Ham. However it is likely we will not see him but for maybe 2 more minutes for the rest of the season. And no one will care, about the talents that we are wasting.

Ironically regarding Onomah and CCV they were treated with an incredible amount of caution in the first place and shown a general lack of trust, when they maybe should have had more faith shown in them to help with their confidence or if you don't trust them send them on loan. I didn't think you could get more cautious than 2mins every 5 games in an alien position, but here we are.



Thank you and I appreciate that but my negative tone, is because 4 years in and being told constantly to wait until next season nothing changes, and we continue to waste an incredible amount of talent. To think that someone who has been watching Skipp since he was 12, posting and sharing information with everyone on here, talking about his development and say how I believe he is good enough for the first team isn't pleased for him is madness. On the contrary I'm very very pleased for him as he has deserved it, it just I don't have your optimism that this is going to lead to anything meaningful. Posters love mentioning the number of debuts Poch has provided, again not that great when compared to similar clubs and yet nothing has come of them as we barely see them again. I don't understand how more people aren't negative. It's not like we are winning anything where we can say they just aren't good enough. Our squad isn't full of top quality or winners, yet better handling of one of the best generations of English talent, which we have contributed to, may have lead to a stronger squad, or more funds available to improve our squad. Yes Levy should probably release more funds but there is a load of money to be made within if we were smarter.



If we aren't making the best of our youth players, why can't it be raised. If Poch kept making bad team selections people would go on about it. I still back Poch and always will, it doesn't mean to say he hasn't handled the academy poorly. We have this conversation yearly, in fact I post a lot less now as it's as tedious for me as it no doubt is for you, and last season I was told to have faith, and what I apparently was waiting and meant to look forward to was 7 mins for Skipp, and a game for KWP eventually, after back to back PL MOTMs.



Maybe but then if that's the case you'd hope the manager might have a different plan or maybe consider using the loan system more as clearly something isn't working.

Ye as I said all PL clubs suck at this, but I'd argue Kirby is in the better position now. Regarding who the better player is, not many people were saying Kirby was back when he left. I said I think they were equal and have different strengths but many were saying they were happier to lose Kirby than TOB. If there is any difference it was marginal, but now one is on the bench for an u23 side that can't win, after being taken under the wing of the manager.



Thank you also. And I do get your post and see your point of view and agree to an extent. However, as always over the last 4 years it feels like there will always be an excuse why this player couldn't get on at this time. If there was a better attempt and bringing through players. Even other posters had mentioned bringing one academy player through a year should be possible. Maybe 2 games per season. or 3 15 mins cameos. I feel like even I'm lowering the bar now, but when that doesn't happen, I'm less patient at the reasons given.

At the end of the day the only the club suffers. We know we don't have an influx of money we know Levy won't release more money, but there are definitely ways in which we could be making money or improve our squad, but we will go in this cycle and not win anything and nothing will change. Surely we should start to do something different when we do the same thing with no different outcome.





The only reason you guys know the players mentioned above are decent now is because 2 managed to force a move abroad really early in their career, one played in the Championship, and there is no doubt pressure on City to play Foden. Hudson-Odoi who everyone raved about and tore Bellerin a new one in preseason is getting the same treatment he would here, and I give it a year before people start claiming that maybe he wasn't quite as good as people claimed.

I don't doubt that I bring down this thread, as I said it's a major reason I have partially stopped contributing, but how anyone can expect to be singing praises after seeing a talent get on for 7mins is baffling. The complete mishandling of the talent from the 96s-99s is shocking and fortunately the 00s are being a bit more wary and starting to look abroad.

I know this discussion is ultimately pointless when England has bar none the best talents in the world yet fans of each club will say they are not good enough for their own clubs. How can I debate that?




For perspective and to show you how hindsight affects everything. I have been raving about TOB for ages, easily one of the best players I had seen at u16s at below. One coach said he's the best player he's ever coached along with Kirby. At u16/17 level TOB was I believe regarded as England's best CM at that age group. And I think he was. In that age group he was one of the most important players, in a team that had Sancho, Foden, Gomes, CHO. All the games he played in we cruised. He got KO'd in the semi, and England began to look disjointed. The game against Spain though we should have won, if we kept the ball in the last 5 mins again we looked so poor and ended up losing without him. He was crucial to that team. With him in that team we won the World Cup. Everyone had high hopes for him, but he was kept from playing u18 football and trained with the first team. Maybe had a couple of injures but since coming back from that great opportunity looking at him now everyone thinks he's rubbish and nowhere near good enough. If he had left and gone abroad he would be looked at differently. And that's the point. The development, handling and lack of trust in them means that they get stifled and then everyone concludes they were never that good in the first place. Could easily have happened to Sancho and would have if he was here as well. At the conclusion of the Euro u17s. TOB stayed and Sancho left, they were relative to their positions on a similar footing abilitywise (I'm trying to remember England youth watchers views at that time @JRSG may be able to confirm or not) yet their development curve from there has been drastically different . 95% of people wouldn't have seen them properly at 16/17 would just assume that Sancho was a lot better but I'd argue that isn't true, relative to what they did. Though Sancho is an incredible talent. The main difference is how they were then developed, one has gone up while the other has gone down. The fact Sancho's in blistering form exacerbates the difference, but if it they were reversed, Sancho would be training with our first team and I imagine TOB might be on Dortmund's bench at this point.

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First off mate brilliant post, there is so much nuanced well thought out points you made all throughout this post. I really hope you dont get put off posting here completely bc that would pretty much be the last straw for this thread.

Secondly, serious youth watchers should be able to use this thread to have a moan and voice there concern with how the club is integrating the majority of their academy players. If the more casual fan can't handle your better informed opinion then that is there problem not yours. And you and other youth watchers earn that respect and leeway bc of the effort you make to go the extra mile to watch spurs youth teams at every possible opportunity.

Thirdly, you make a fantastic point in the first paragraph. People need to realise that youth watchers dont want to see our young kids just carelessly tossed into the deepend, were they have to sink or swim with little support or preperation. But a slow gradual integration into the squad suited to each individauls specific situation. I feel all too often, there is no integration plan for youth players. That youth players are just used as glorified training cones, until they happen upon a half chance that they get tossed into a cup match, either out of position and or in a side were the players dont have any familiarity with playing with each other and as a result the academy player struggles and underwhelms.

This haphazard form of integration hurts kids confidence and erroneously the casual fan forms a negative opinion of the youngster off of one sr appearance, instead of giving the kid the benefit of the doubt from years of excellent youth appearances. Yet sr players like Sissoko and Trippier get loads of slack from these same fans.

Anyways cheers mate once again for a brilliant post and all the other wonderful under apreciated things you do for this thread. And say hi to Windy for me the next time you run into him.

IGSpur said:

Did you notice if Aird-Munn was playing for Fulham or not. He posted that he beat Spurs 4-2 and got an assist. So there may be some discrepancy in the scoreline. If he did I imagine he;s been released or on trial, which I can understand as he has never really caught my eye. Also suggests we're starting to cull for next season

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No Sorry I did not notice I was trying to keep a eye on Muir CB for us,It was 4-2 until late in the match but I thought we got a late goal unless it was Disallowed for some reason,there was people behind me talking about a player we had let go so maybe it was him.

Hmmm going from twitter fair to say Onomah didn’t have his best game.

I'd imagine the shoo-ins for next year are

Isak Middtun Solberg
Marques Muir
Dermi Lusala
Matthew Craig
Michael Craig
Zanda Siziba,
Eddie Alberdi
Nile John
Max Robson
Roman Hackett-Walton
Jeremy Kyezu
Albert Rachi

...just behind that bunch is Toni Oluwayemi, Alex Monroe, Kallum Cisse, Tarelle Whittaker and Tunji Omembe.

I'd guess that Timothee Lo'Tutula, David Barclay, Alex Hammond and Arjunah Crighton will all go, if some of them haven't already.

coys200 said:

Hmmm going from twitter fair to say Onomah didn’t have his best game.

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Ye I watched and he had a really poor game. Should have buried 2 early chances. Then just seemed to have a bad day

Spurzinho said:

I'd imagine the shoo-ins for next year are

Isak Middtun Solberg
Marques Muir
Dermi Lusala
Matthew Craig
Michael Craig
Zanda Siziba,
Eddie Alberdi
Nile John
Max Robson
Roman Hackett-Walton
Jeremy Kyezu
Albert Rachi

...just behind that bunch is Toni Oluwayemi, Alex Monroe, Kallum Cisse, Tarelle Whittaker and Tunji Omembe.

I'd guess that Timothee Lo'Tutula, David Barclay, Alex Hammond and Arjunah Crighton will all go, if some of them haven't already.

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Pretty sure Roman Hackett-Walton(i believe also known as Hackett-Fairchild) left a while ago to go Brighton.

I'd imagine Oluwayemi would be included and Cesay. And maybe even Whittaker as he's the only out and out striker unless Siziba has fully converted.

Few of those players I could take or leave. Also players like Mundle, Ngoma, Feko who we've only recently signed.

coys200 said:

Hmmm going from twitter fair to say Onomah didn’t have his best game.

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He just goes to show you can have all the physical talent in the world, but if it's not clicking upstairs then it doesnt matter.

IGSpur said:

Warning I moan below. Skip this post if it grates you.



This is what usually happens. I think you misunderstand what I and others suggest. No one and I mean no one is saying let's throw players in. Just opportunites here and there. What is annoying though, is when you know your manager will give very very limited opportunities, when a League Cup game does come along you hope that the ONE academy player that dose come on may get more than 7 mins to prove themselves. As we know if we stand a chance of seeing them again, we are hoping for a very favourable FA Cup draw, and then even then, we may seem him for another 7mins. If I had any faith that Skipp might get 7mins a couple of more times this season in CM then I wouldn't care as much that he only got 7mins against West Ham. However it is likely we will not see him but for maybe 2 more minutes for the rest of the season. And no one will care, about the talents that we are wasting.

Ironically regarding Onomah and CCV they were treated with an incredible amount of caution in the first place and shown a general lack of trust, when they maybe should have had more faith shown in them to help with their confidence or if you don't trust them send them on loan. I didn't think you could get more cautious than 2mins every 5 games in an alien position, but here we are.



Thank you and I appreciate that but my negative tone, is because 4 years in and being told constantly to wait until next season nothing changes, and we continue to waste an incredible amount of talent. To think that someone who has been watching Skipp since he was 12, posting and sharing information with everyone on here, talking about his development and say how I believe he is good enough for the first team isn't pleased for him is madness. On the contrary I'm very very pleased for him as he has deserved it, it just I don't have your optimism that this is going to lead to anything meaningful. Posters love mentioning the number of debuts Poch has provided, again not that great when compared to similar clubs and yet nothing has come of them as we barely see them again. I don't understand how more people aren't negative. It's not like we are winning anything where we can say they just aren't good enough. Our squad isn't full of top quality or winners, yet better handling of one of the best generations of English talent, which we have contributed to, may have lead to a stronger squad, or more funds available to improve our squad. Yes Levy should probably release more funds but there is a load of money to be made within if we were smarter.



If we aren't making the best of our youth players, why can't it be raised. If Poch kept making bad team selections people would go on about it. I still back Poch and always will, it doesn't mean to say he hasn't handled the academy poorly. We have this conversation yearly, in fact I post a lot less now as it's as tedious for me as it no doubt is for you, and last season I was told to have faith, and what I apparently was waiting and meant to look forward to was 7 mins for Skipp, and a game for KWP eventually, after back to back PL MOTMs.



Maybe but then if that's the case you'd hope the manager might have a different plan or maybe consider using the loan system more as clearly something isn't working.

Ye as I said all PL clubs suck at this, but I'd argue Kirby is in the better position now. Regarding who the better player is, not many people were saying Kirby was back when he left. I said I think they were equal and have different strengths but many were saying they were happier to lose Kirby than TOB. If there is any difference it was marginal, but now one is on the bench for an u23 side that can't win, after being taken under the wing of the manager.



Thank you also. And I do get your post and see your point of view and agree to an extent. However, as always over the last 4 years it feels like there will always be an excuse why this player couldn't get on at this time. If there was a better attempt and bringing through players. Even other posters had mentioned bringing one academy player through a year should be possible. Maybe 2 games per season. or 3 15 mins cameos. I feel like even I'm lowering the bar now, but when that doesn't happen, I'm less patient at the reasons given.

At the end of the day the only the club suffers. We know we don't have an influx of money we know Levy won't release more money, but there are definitely ways in which we could be making money or improve our squad, but we will go in this cycle and not win anything and nothing will change. Surely we should start to do something different when we do the same thing with no different outcome.

Ironically as well with the homegrown rule and the way the squad is built, we are now going to have to look for English players who have managed to come through lower league clubs to fill out our squad. The stupid thing is we had just invested in our own players and given them chances we wouldn't have to go looking elsewhere for the Grealishes and Cooks. We are wasting money and paying a premium on players we have better than in the academy, which we can't spend on actual world class players and no one sees it as a problem. People see Cook come through at Leeds and Grealish come through at VIlla and conclude they must be better than what we have as they are playing football, when if they were in our academy they would be nowhere. It is such a ridiculous way of working and a poor way of managing our money and the squad. 8 times out of 10 if a Cat 1 wants a talent they will generally be able to poach them from other clubs, which means the lesser players are in the other clubs. These are the ones coming through which we are then quoted £30-40m to buy. The whole system is set up so the top clubs have the best players, and it is evidence that it works through club results and international results, and yet instead we end up trying to buy from the lesser clubs, then complain we don't have money to spend on top quality.

As I have said, some may notice, and some may not care but I post a lot less now, because it's very tedious getting into the same debate. I have my point of view others have theirs. I guess I have the problem of knowing and seeing the talent English football has to offer, I am doing my best to share as much of the information with everyone on this forum. The evidence is out there and yet seeing it go to waste, as they are 'not good enough' is so annoying. England got the furthest they've done in a World Cup in 20odd years with a squad where the senior players came from the first age group to win a Euro u17s (93s) of the new generation and supported by the even more talented age groups below, also filled with tournament winners. The players that have come through still aren't the best available as development from 19yos to PL football is incredibly poor and even with the lesser players we got to a semi. I believe England should win a World Cup and could do a France and have 5 first eleven of top quality players, but fans don't give a damn. The numbers coming through haven't even changed, but fans of each club continue to back and support the managers decisions to not bring through any players. We are literally seeing us spank France and Germany at youth level and then say they aren't good enough. Some fans are a least seeing it's not a meritocracy now but don't really care when chances aren't handed out. If Foden, Nelson, Sancho,Hudson-Odoi, Sessegnon et al were at our club you are kidding yourself if you believe they would have come through here. It would be the same old guff at that our squad is too good, we need to win trophies, if they are good enough they would get a chance, just believe. And when they inevitably don't make it, point to the 2 times they came on as a sub with 5 mins to go as a reason why they weren't good enough, or when they barged off the ball but a 27 year old unit as a young 17/19 year old in one of their 2 appearances and get told their too lightweight or not ready for first team football.

The only reason you guys know the players mentioned above are decent now is because 2 managed to force a move abroad really early in their career, one played in the Championship, and there is no doubt pressure on City to play Foden. Hudson-Odoi who everyone raved about and tore Bellerin a new one in preseason is getting the same treatment he would here, and I give it a year before people start claiming that maybe he wasn't quite as good as people claimed.

I don't doubt that I bring down this thread, as I said it's a major reason I have partially stopped contributing, but how anyone can expect to be singing praises after seeing a talent get on for 7mins is baffling. The complete mishandling of the talent from the 96s-99s is shocking and fortunately the 00s are being a bit more wary and starting to look abroad.

I know this discussion is ultimately pointless when England has bar none the best talents in the world yet fans of each club will say they are not good enough for their own clubs. How can I debate that?

We(Spurs) have had the best generation of talent we've ever seen at the club, we've had ex pros talk about how they are being wasted, we had a coach that said 2 of the best players he has ever coached were at Spurs. I've quoted various people from coaches to Directors that have said that the English age groups between 01-99 are the best they have ever seen in football, and still my and others frustration is met with bemusement and over-reaction. I once said we might as well pack in our academy and was told I was being stupid. But seriously, all this talent, and one player comes through in 4/5 years, and we're hardly making money off them as they get crap loans. What is the point? How few players need to come through over how many years, before fans go, 'maybe this is bad'. If you're bar on if they're good enough is whether the manager is giving them a chance or not, in the last 4/5 years the level of players we are producing is apparently no better than the Lee Barnard years, as the output has essentially been the same. Fans have gotten to the point where 7mins is seen as a great advert for the academy and are claiming that fans have an agenda for pointing out an incredibly poor return during England's golden age. The output is essentially the same for academies, in fact it is probably worse now than it was when the academies were actually crap. When they weren't producing players like we are now and yet people seem pleased with the progress. I don't even really know who I'm annoyed at most. I can't blame the fans for wanting to win, or just believing in the manager as they aren't privy to the talents about. I get we can't see them in training and I get why no one would just trust the judgement of a couple of fans that watch some u18s matches. I don't know whose responsility it is to help bring these kids through, so much investment has gone into it maybe the Chairman should be a bit more forceful but when certain clubs are winning trophies why would the charimen care, I thought ours would push it more, but then why would a manager risk playing academy players, when their job is on the line. The Premier League and FA can't do much I doubt, tehy try and chnage the rules by forcing more homegrown players on the bench but he manager controls when the come on. Really it's the players that cna control their own destiny and as we are seeing forcing themselves out of this ridiculous system. And I appreciate Soutgate who si making his decision based on the talent/ability of players he knows rather than the old method of choosing players with expereinces. What is the point in choosing a player who has played 30 games in the season if ultimately their ceiling/ability is less than the young player who is strugglign to come through in top 6 club. I guess as everyone says to me, Southgate has seen these kids in training and worked with them, and while some are against it or sceptical he seems to be doing a decent job of choosing the talent that he has worked with.



Defintely not imo. The biggest barrier to youth development is inexperience. Managers fear how a young player might handle playing in front of crowds, in pressure situations or against men. Dier and Alli had played numerous games in league football. The pressure was off, we knew we were getting players that could cope.

Sancho had played zero first team minutes he would have been a lot more on the Onomah/KPW level. Even Foyth had made 7 first team appearances and he struggles to get games. I don't know how hand on heart anyone can believe Sancho would be in the position he is now if he came here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Before, we were linked with him, not many people had seen him. They may have heard about him due to the Euros, but not everyone watched that. I've been following him for the last 2/3 years, he is a special talent but there are and other been others, who didn't manage to get themselves abroad and rotted in England. If he had stayed at City and not played there would be no hype over him. If he had come here, I'd like to know what you've seen in the last 4/5 years that suggests that a completely untested Sancho would have been selected ahead of Eriksen, Alli, Son, Moura,Lamela or even Sissoko.

For perspective and to show you how hindsight affects everything. I have been raving about TOB for ages, easily one of the best players I had seen at u16s at below. One coach said he's the best player he's ever coached along with Kirby. At u16/17 level TOB was I believe regarded as England's best CM at that age group. And I think he was. In that age group he was one of the most important players, in a team that had Sancho, Foden, Gomes, CHO. All the games he played in we cruised. He got KO'd in the semi, and England began to look disjointed. The game against Spain though we should have won, if we kept the ball in the last 5 mins again we looked so poor and ended up losing without him. He was crucial to that team. With him in that team we won the World Cup. Everyone had high hopes for him, but he was kept from playing u18 football and trained with the first team. Maybe had a couple of injures but since coming back from that great opportunity looking at him now everyone thinks he's rubbish and nowhere near good enough. If he had left and gone abroad he would be looked at differently. And that's the point. The development, handling and lack of trust in them means that they get stifled and then everyone concludes they were never that good in the first place. Could easily have happened to Sancho and would have if he was here as well. At the conclusion of the Euro u17s. TOB stayed and Sancho left, they were relative to their positions on a similar footing abilitywise (I'm trying to remember England youth watchers views at that time @JRSG may be able to confirm or not) yet their development curve from there has been drastically different . 95% of people wouldn't have seen them properly at 16/17 would just assume that Sancho was a lot better but I'd argue that isn't true, relative to what they did. Though Sancho is an incredible talent. The main difference is how they were then developed, one has gone up while the other has gone down. The fact Sancho's in blistering form exacerbates the difference, but if it they were reversed, Sancho would be training with our first team and I imagine TOB might be on Dortmund's bench at this point.

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that morgan gibbs-white lad looks decent, we should buy him

IGSpur said:

Pretty sure Roman Hackett-Walton(i believe also known as Hackett-Fairchild) left a while ago to go Brighton.

I'd imagine Oluwayemi would be included and Cesay. And maybe even Whittaker as he's the only out and out striker unless Siziba has fully converted.

Few of those players I could take or leave. Also players like Mundle, Ngoma, Feko who we've only recently signed.

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Surprised about Hackett, thought he was just injured. I forgot about Mundle. Ngoma and Feko I'm less familiar with.