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New Stadium Details And Discussions

NickHSpurs

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2004
13,626
11,875
One of the issues with a project of this scale was always going to be the amount of skilled labour available especially as it seems the tactic was to flood the place with workers to meet some might say an unrealistic timescale.

The construction industry has been going to the dogs for years. I’ve sat on trades courses run by colleges and saw for myself that you only really needed to attend for a certain amount of time before you were issued with a certificate and a pair of safety boots and away you go. Looking at some of the adverts for labouring jobs at the stadium all that was being asked for was a CSCS card which if anyone has ever had to obtain one of those it’s pretty clear that it qualifies you for having a basic level of common sense and nothing more. Unfortunately it would appear that a lot of the labourers were probably given jobs far beyond their capabilities and this is the end result.

Most of these guys were probably used to working on a traditional 2 up, 2 down house but all of a sudden were tasked with building a sports stadium which I think we’d all agree is a completely different kettle of fish.

Long and short of it is that there was never the required amount of skilled labour available to complete the job of this magnitude especially when you consider all the other big construction projects happening at the same time, cross rail etc.

I've been saying this for ages, they went for quantity of workers over quality, it's that simple.
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
One of the issues with a project of this scale was always going to be the amount of skilled labour available especially as it seems the tactic was to flood the place with workers to meet some might say an unrealistic timescale.

The construction industry has been going to the dogs for years. I’ve sat on trades courses run by colleges and saw for myself that you only really needed to attend for a certain amount of time before you were issued with a certificate and a pair of safety boots and away you go. Looking at some of the adverts for labouring jobs at the stadium all that was being asked for was a CSCS card which if anyone has ever had to obtain one of those it’s pretty clear that it qualifies you for having a basic level of common sense and nothing more. Unfortunately it would appear that a lot of the labourers were probably given jobs far beyond their capabilities and this is the end result.

Most of these guys were probably used to working on a traditional 2 up, 2 down house but all of a sudden were tasked with building a sports stadium which I think we’d all agree is a completely different kettle of fish.

Long and short of it is that there was never the required amount of skilled labour available to complete the job of this magnitude especially when you consider all the other big construction projects happening at the same time, cross rail etc.

Not arguing with you, but in that case why did we pursue such an unrealistic timescale rather than a steady 2 seasons to complete?

We must have been aware of the likelihood of any such shortage of skilled labour ( or if we weren’t, we bloody well should have been).
 

Monkey boy

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2011
6,380
17,039
Not arguing with you, but in that case why did we pursue such an unrealistic timescale rather than a steady 2 seasons to complete?

We must have been aware of the likelihood of any such shortage of skilled labour ( or if we weren’t, we bloody well should have been).

That I don’t know and suspect that probably more than a few who signed the agreement and nodded to say yes it’ll be ready we’re probably more than aware. Unfortunately when such vast sums of money are in the offering common sense more often than not goes out of the window and all sorts of unrealistic promises are made to ensure you get a slice of the pie.

I’m sure recruitment agencies would have been asked beforehand and no doubt came back with an answer of how many do you need and when can they start? Without so much as looking at their books to see how many they could have realistically got.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Not arguing with you, but in that case why did we pursue such an unrealistic timescale rather than a steady 2 seasons to complete?

We must have been aware of the likelihood of any such shortage of skilled labour ( or if we weren’t, we bloody well should have been).
I could write a book. Developers always set grossly unrealistic time scales - no exceptions (except me, of course ;)). It starts right at the beginning of the process - on a more modest scaled development, this is what will be established as the programme, especially when the client is trying to obtain funding: "it will take 3 months to get the planning application submitted, another 3 months to get planning consent, we'll start on site 2 months later and it will take a year to build".

Here's the realistic version: "it will take 6 months to get the planning application submitted, another 12 months to get planning consent, then it will take 6 months to prepare the detailed design, obtain Building Regulations approval and tender the job, then make savings and select a contractor, then another 3 months before the selected contractor can gear up on site, then the contract will be for 18 months and it will run 6 months late". And that assumes that the developer refrains from trying on a planning application that grossly overdevelops the site, or demolishes listed buildings, which could add an extra year.

So I'd adjust the cash flow to a more realistic time scale and the client would freak out about the additional finance charges, demand that the scheme had to be finished 10 months earlier and stomp about trying to bully everyone. The time scale would be shortened again. And it would end up taking as long as I said it would. Over and over and over, every time. They never learn.
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,356
3,330
That I don’t know and suspect that probably more than a few who signed the agreement and nodded to say yes it’ll be ready we’re probably more than aware. Unfortunately when such vast sums of money are in the offering common sense more often than not goes out of the window and all sorts of unrealistic promises are made to ensure you get a slice of the pie.

I’m sure recruitment agencies would have been asked beforehand and no doubt came back with an answer of how many do you need and when can they start? Without so much as looking at their books to see how many they could have realistically got.
Thanks for the posts, it's interesting stuff and not in the raging style that this thread often gets saturated with! It sounds like the whole industry is a bit "flaky" and there's all sorts of stuff going on, but things are still being built to an acceptable standard eventually so maybe a case of "it is what it is" happening?

What I wonder is how much more the club should have done early on to learn about potential pitfalls of the project in order to set a feasible delivery schedule? They will be taking the advice/word of their main contractors of course - there's no point Spurs pretending to know everything about the construction world - but is it usual to get a third party consultant to validate the claims of a chosen main contractor?

I know nothing about how the industry works but I would have thought that if the proposal from one contractor (Mace) was significantly different to the proposals from a number of others (and I'm assuming many companies bid for the project) then that would have rung alarm bells even to non-construction people. And I'm wondering how this might all end up in terms of potential legal challenges once the stadium is finished.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
That I don’t know and suspect that probably more than a few who signed the agreement and nodded to say yes it’ll be ready we’re probably more than aware. Unfortunately when such vast sums of money are in the offering common sense more often than not goes out of the window and all sorts of unrealistic promises are made to ensure you get a slice of the pie.

I’m sure recruitment agencies would have been asked beforehand and no doubt came back with an answer of how many do you need and when can they start? Without so much as looking at their books to see how many they could have realistically got.
Yes. Also, the contractors are always under pressure to reduce tenders so they can secure jobs. One of the easiest ways to convince your boss that you can do the job for less is to show that you can do it more quickly. So the subcontractors all shorten their time-scales to unrealistic degrees.

Then they provide those programmes to the main contractor (in this case, the construction manager), who in turn is under pressure to reduce costs and time, so they don't challenge the bullshit programmes. Instead, they build their critical path planning around un-achievable targets, such that the moment anything goes wrong, everything else gets delayed and shoved out of sequence as well.

It's caused by the same underlying cultural problem. Not incompetent workers. Pressure from directors and clients to reduce costs and deliver schemes earlier than can realistically be achieved. Unrealistic time-scales being set at the outset, to inflate profitability and obtain funding, perpetuated because no one will admit to having been hopelessly optimistic (i.e., wrong) to start with.
 

Monkey boy

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2011
6,380
17,039
Thanks for the posts, it's interesting stuff and not in the raging style that this thread often gets saturated with! It sounds like the whole industry is a bit "flaky" and there's all sorts of stuff going on, but things are still being built to an acceptable standard eventually so maybe a case of "it is what it is" happening?

What I wonder is how much more the club should have done early on to learn about potential pitfalls of the project in order to set a feasible delivery schedule? They will be taking the advice/word of their main contractors of course - there's no point Spurs pretending to know everything about the construction world - but is it usual to get a third party consultant to validate the claims of a chosen main contractor?

I know nothing about how the industry works but I would have thought that if the proposal from one contractor (Mace) was significantly different to the proposals from a number of others (and I'm assuming many companies bid for the project) then that would have rung alarm bells even to non-construction people. And I'm wondering how this might all end up in terms of potential legal challenges once the stadium is finishe
d.

Interesting point you make there and it’s someyhing that happens frequently but again very often ignored. On Friday last week I being an Employers Agent received all the tenders back for a project that I had spec’d. I go to the clients office to open all 3 tenders in the correct and legal way with members of their board. 2 contractors came in with what I’d considered to be there or theresbout on price, the other contractor came in a million pound under. Alarm bells rang for me immediately and I let my thoughts be known, however the clients representatives all came to the conclusion that they would go for this contractor. I’ll report back in 12 months as to how this plays out but I suspect it’ll be very different to how the client wants it to.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Interesting point you make there and it’s someyhing that happens frequently but again very often ignored. On Friday last week I being an Employers Agent received all the tenders back for a project that I had spec’d. I go to the clients office to open all 3 tenders in the correct and legal way with members of their board. 2 contractors came in with what I’d considered to be there or theresbout on price, the other contractor came in a million pound under. Alarm bells rang for me immediately and I let my thoughts be known, however the clients representatives all came to the conclusion that they would go for this contractor. I’ll report back in 12 months as to how this plays out but I suspect it’ll be very different to how the client wants it to.
A complementary example to what I was writing about just above.
 

Dunc2610

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2008
1,588
4,000
Yes. Also, the contractors are always under pressure to reduce tenders so they can secure jobs. One of the easiest ways to convince your boss that you can do the job for less is to show that you can do it more quickly. So the subcontractors all shorten their time-scales to unrealistic degrees.
I can tell you there was a significant amount of money between the lowest roofing tender and our submission. Mace/Tottenham essentially bought the risk.
 

Dunc2610

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2008
1,588
4,000
Interesting point you make there and it’s someyhing that happens frequently but again very often ignored. On Friday last week I being an Employers Agent received all the tenders back for a project that I had spec’d. I go to the clients office to open all 3 tenders in the correct and legal way with members of their board. 2 contractors came in with what I’d considered to be there or theresbout on price, the other contractor came in a million pound under. Alarm bells rang for me immediately and I let my thoughts be known, however the clients representatives all came to the conclusion that they would go for this contractor. I’ll report back in 12 months as to how this plays out but I suspect it’ll be very different to how the client wants it to.
Experience tells me you'll be back to one of the other contractors when a) the lowest contractor can't deliver at the price quoted, b) the lowest contractors workmanship is poor and they get kicked off or c) the lowest contractor goes bust trying to deliver on time/budget!
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
Interesting point you make there and it’s someyhing that happens frequently but again very often ignored. On Friday last week I being an Employers Agent received all the tenders back for a project that I had spec’d. I go to the clients office to open all 3 tenders in the correct and legal way with members of their board. 2 contractors came in with what I’d considered to be there or theresbout on price, the other contractor came in a million pound under. Alarm bells rang for me immediately and I let my thoughts be known, however the clients representatives all came to the conclusion that they would go for this contractor. I’ll report back in 12 months as to how this plays out but I suspect it’ll be very different to how the client wants it to.

Yeah I also work in the building industry ( but for private landlords and on the accounting/audit side rather than construction/property manager side and generally dealing with much smaller scale capital projects).

And despite going through the correct channels with budget costing/independent surveyors, project managers and CDM coordinators with fully documented tender analysis etc, 99% of the time they just go with the cheapest option.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
50240766_490811248112229_8801501346319612976_n.jpg

someones left the lights on in the top toilets, wasting electricity. Levy will have them found I'm sure of it:whistle:
 

absolute bobbins

Am Yisrael Chai
Feb 12, 2013
11,649
25,962
Yeah I also work in the building industry ( but for private landlords and on the accounting/audit side rather than construction/property manager side and generally dealing with much smaller scale capital projects).

And despite going through the correct channels with budget costing/independent surveyors, project managers and CDM coordinators with fully documented tender analysis etc, 99% of the time they just go with the cheapest option.
It's amazing how frequently 'If the price seems to be good to be true...' goes out the window
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
I really hope that in years to come we don’t end up regretting the patently ridiculous aim of getting the stadium build in essentially one year. I worry about remedial works needing to be done when built quality defects and other issues potentially present themselves down the line. We could be paying for this rush to get it done for years to come.
 
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WorcesterTHFC

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2016
1,776
2,545
Yeah I also work in the building industry ( but for private landlords and on the accounting/audit side rather than construction/property manager side and generally dealing with much smaller scale capital projects).

And despite going through the correct channels with budget costing/independent surveyors, project managers and CDM coordinators with fully documented tender analysis etc, 99% of the time they just go with the cheapest option.
What's the betting that the cheapest option in the short term turns out to be the most expensive option in the long term because the owners of a building have to pay experts to clear up the mess left by the original company?
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,956
This was the skilled labour fro other countries?.. 90% of the sparks on site where Romanian /Bulgarian

I asked many of them. On sites I've been on where they got there qualifications /certificates etc.. Many just bought them ffs?.. You can't say to much even when you experience it as your called all sorts???.
The cscs scheme is not fit.. It was supposed to stop unskilled labour but has been bypassed by greedy firms and agencies looking to earn quick profits.. On large-scale sites I've visited and been on the only large contractor that ever checked to see if I was who I said iwas and had a bona-fide skill set as I claimed was carillion and they went under last year.

I’ve got a Slovakian builder working for me and he said, in the main, workers from those countries are under cutting people now from other east European countries like his, Poland etc. The quality of work suffers massively as they are working for next to nothing and in some cases unqualified just like you’ve said.

He said this to me a few months ago and completely missed the irony in what he was saying, because what’s happening to him, is what happened to a whole lot of English builders when their compatriots came to England.

So what I’m saying is, if we’ve gone as cheap as possible we’ve only got ourselves to blame. You get what you pay for and if something is too good to be true then it usually is.
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
What's the betting that the cheapest option in the short term turns out to be the most expensive option in the long term because the owners of a building have to pay experts to clear up the mess left by the original company?

Yeah, certainly on a job as complex as our stadium the risks of cost cutting are amplified massively. Goes without saying.

The thing I don't understand is that surely we have been employing independent surveyors and consultants to project manage from pre-tender stage through to completion? In particular the M & E consultants working with the presumably independent surveyors and MACE would be checking works and signing them off on an interim basis.

Hard to believe that the issues weren't spotted long before they became widespread.
 
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