FibreOpticJesus
Well-Known Member
- Aug 14, 2005
- 2,812
- 5,040
No you did not have to provide any info. It was only if you wished to. I cannot believe Spurs could be that naive.
The Y Word
- Thread starter mil1lion
- Start date
No you did not have to provide any info. It was only if you wished to. I cannot believe Spurs could be that naive.
Saoirse
Well-Known Member
- Aug 20, 2013
- 6,161
- 15,638
If only 50% of those filling it in provide it, those that do provide it tend to say they "love being a Yid", and those that don't provide membership numbers say "Trophy Dodging Spurs scum are all a bunch of racists P.S. Heil Hitler", then it should be pretty obvious what's happened.
Gassin's finest
C'est diabolique
- May 12, 2010
- 37,533
- 88,252
It's not a survey, it's a consultation. Given the political/media climate right now it's a canny move by the club to be seen to be proactive and progressive on a delicate subject.
Personally I've sang it, but ultimately it isn't for me decide.
Personally I've sang it, but ultimately it isn't for me decide.
BringBack_leGin
Well-Known Member
- Jul 28, 2004
- 27,719
- 54,929
I personally don’t sing or chant anything including the word because I don’t identify with it, but I also don’t see anything wrong with those who do as it’s clearly not being used in an insulting way... if anything it’s showing pride (deliberately or accidentally) in the Jewish element that does exist within our club.
Banning use of the word would be highly dangerous, as they’d be banning an activity which is neither criminal harassing/ assaulting/ in nature, nor tortiously negligent to any person (as I’m pretty sure you couldn’t successfully prove that the Jewish fans chanting it were guilty of the above, and if you couldn’t prove they were, you couldn’t build a case against the other Spurs fans chanting it). With all that in mind, I suspect that banning use of the word could amount to a freedom issue.
I’m really no expert on such things but just logically speaking, banning the Y word seems very complicated and potentially not legally enforceable.
Banning use of the word would be highly dangerous, as they’d be banning an activity which is neither criminal harassing/ assaulting/ in nature, nor tortiously negligent to any person (as I’m pretty sure you couldn’t successfully prove that the Jewish fans chanting it were guilty of the above, and if you couldn’t prove they were, you couldn’t build a case against the other Spurs fans chanting it). With all that in mind, I suspect that banning use of the word could amount to a freedom issue.
I’m really no expert on such things but just logically speaking, banning the Y word seems very complicated and potentially not legally enforceable.
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,227
- 83,161
I have personally chosen not to sing it anymore. Not to say I am right too, just my interpretation and on balance of all things decided not to.
The factors regarding why we started using the word, what the word means, if we have a right to reappropriate words, if we are able to stop using a word so connected to us and if the number of people offended or disagree with our usage of the words all make for interesting discussion.
But I have come to realise that the majority of people couldn't care less about discussion and listening to opposing viewpoints. 99% of discussion is people saying what they already think then repeating it ad nauseam.
The factors regarding why we started using the word, what the word means, if we have a right to reappropriate words, if we are able to stop using a word so connected to us and if the number of people offended or disagree with our usage of the words all make for interesting discussion.
But I have come to realise that the majority of people couldn't care less about discussion and listening to opposing viewpoints. 99% of discussion is people saying what they already think then repeating it ad nauseam.
Jgplk1
Well-Known Member
- Mar 16, 2005
- 2,072
- 19,522
I was just in Tel Aviv and watched the Villa game at a pub with Jewish friends who live there. They were singing it with the Spurs fans and other Israelis in the bar joined in when they heard it too.
NayimFTHL
Well-Known Member
- Jul 9, 2017
- 102
- 499
The other side of the coin. Read it and try putting your ignorance to one side.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/spu...ises-its-use-by-others-and-the-club-must-act/
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/spu...ises-its-use-by-others-and-the-club-must-act/
Jgplk1
Well-Known Member
- Mar 16, 2005
- 2,072
- 19,522
@NayimFTHL I'm not worried about the rating, but what are you disagreeing with? I've just landed in London from Israel and what I've said is a fact.
riggi
Well-Known Member
- Jun 24, 2008
- 48,528
- 104,903
Which bar mate? I did similar a few seasons ago.
Jgplk1
Well-Known Member
- Mar 16, 2005
- 2,072
- 19,522
It was called Mike's Place on Frishman's beach. We tried a few other bars, but it was a national holiday and that was one of the only places open. Good atmosphere actually. Fair few Spurs fans in there.
Everlasting Seconds
Well-Known Member
- Jan 9, 2014
- 14,914
- 26,616
Racism in football is a very important issue and I support campaigning to put it on the agenda and defy it.
However, the place to start combatting racism is not by only targeting a use that at the end of the day is full of positive context.
Tottenham fans using yid/yiddo/yidette is not the correct starting point. That's like combatting civil war losses by trying to remove civilians.
However, the place to start combatting racism is not by only targeting a use that at the end of the day is full of positive context.
Tottenham fans using yid/yiddo/yidette is not the correct starting point. That's like combatting civil war losses by trying to remove civilians.
Last edited:
riggi
Well-Known Member
- Jun 24, 2008
- 48,528
- 104,903
Ah ye I know it. It actually got blown up in a terrorist attack some years ago.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike's_Place_suicide_bombing
Jgplk1
Well-Known Member
- Mar 16, 2005
- 2,072
- 19,522
This is a great post on the subject in my opinion. Also confused as to why @NayimFTHL has disagreed with this too?
Bensonrecon
Well-Known Member
- Apr 4, 2015
- 392
- 1,377
"It’s the use by Spurs fans that creates a nifty cloak for antisemitism from others. "
I'm getting really tired of reading that utterly flawed approach. There is no cloak. If I was walking around wearing a Kippah does that make me fair game for Hitler songs, gas noises and people asking if I'm clipped or not? No. This is no different. You don't blame victims of theft for having nice things worth stealing. You don't blame victims of assault for putting their face in the way of a fist. There is no excuse for some dickhead thinking it's ok to chant about holocaust related things.
Like @Everlasting Seconds just said there's a starting point to combat it and it isn't with the people being targeted by abuse. I don't even sing it myself but it's galling watching the microscope be put on completely the wrong people when stopping Spurs fans using it will make absolutely no difference at all
Jgplk1
Well-Known Member
- Mar 16, 2005
- 2,072
- 19,522
Yeah my friends told me about it. We actually went to the other branch in Jerusalem too. Good craic, but they sell chocolate brownie and goose cake sandwiches ??
NayimFTHL
Well-Known Member
- Jul 9, 2017
- 102
- 499
Spurs fans chanting ‘yid’ normalises its use by others – and the club must act
Another season, another public round of hand-wringing over the use of the word ‘yid’ by Spurs fans. In the last week Tottenham Hotspur FC have sent emails out to fans like me asking our view on ‘the Y-Word’. Maybe this is the year the club finally puts its foot down, but I won’t be holding my breath.
We’ve been here before, more than once. In 2010 David Baddiel made a short film for Kick It Out which challenged the use of the word yid by football fans. In 2012 Peter Herbert of the Society Of Black Lawyers called for prosecutions for the use of word at football grounds.
A year later in 2013, amid further discussion about the singing of the word ‘yid’, the then Prime Minister, David Cameron (remember him?) weighed in explaining that it was fine when it was sung by Spurs fans because ‘”You have to think of the mens rea. There’s a difference between Spurs fans self-describing themselves as Yids and someone calling someone a Yid as an insult.’
In 2012 Spurs responded to criticism over the use of the word yid by fans in the following terms: ‘Our guiding principle in respect of the “Y-word” is based on the point of law itself – the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used i.e. if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence… Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect antisemitic abuse.’
It was the events of 2013 that were a turning point for me as a Spurs fan.
I was a member of the club and attended several games at White Hart Lane each season.
At a game shortly after the Prime Minister’s comments I was sat in the South Lower surrounded by raucous fans shouting the word ‘yid’ louder and with more vigour than I’d heard before.
This was followed by a defiant ‘We’re Tottenham Hotspur, we’ll sing what we want.’
Only two people in my line of sight weren’t singing. Me, and a chap two or three rows below me in a kippah.
I’ve never felt more uncomfortable at a game and I decided there and then that I would stop attending.
I just could not stand to attend games and listen to thousands of people shout a viciously racist word as if it were nothing.
Chanted by thousands of people who would never have to know the pain of that word directed at you because you are Jewish.
As with any such grand gesture, I kept it up for a while, allowing my membership and season ticket waiting list place to lapse.
However, I must admit that I’ve relented somewhat and attended a few games here and there although never at my pre-2013 rate. I’ve been a Spurs fan for more than 30 years, it’s not such an easy thing to give up.
In short, it is unacceptable that the word ‘yid’ is chanted with impunity by thousands of football fans, every week of the season. It is embarrassing that the club have failed to take effective steps to stamp out its use and it is high time that it did so.
The most obvious argument in favour of stopping its use is that it’s a term of racist hate against Jews. That alone should be enough to ensure that fans take steps to eliminate its use in football chants. It would be unacceptable to use any other term of racist abuse in a football chant regardless of any argument about nuance and context. I see no compelling reason why ‘yid’ should be subject to different rules.
Next, it is often said (as it was by the club in 2012) that Spurs fans have effectively reclaimed the Y-word and have used it to deflect antisemitism. Comparisons have been made with the purported reclamation of the N-word.
The fatal flaw in this argument is that the Y-word is not one Spurs fans have the right to reclaim as their own. The great majority of Spurs fans who chant the word ‘yid’ are not Jewish and are thus at no risk of actually having it used against them as a term of racial hatred. Indeed, even if the Y-word had been ‘reclaimed’ by Jews (and it clearly hasn’t) it wouldn’t be for non-Jews to use the word as and when they see fit.
Finally, rather than deflect antisemitism, chanting the word ‘yid’ normalises and perpetuates its use by fans of other clubs. As long as Spurs fans chant it, so opposition fans can chant it back in songs of their own devising.
Those songs might be about a parsimonious yid too stingy to buy a round or perhaps be a little more ambiguous in their intent. It’s the use by Spurs fans that creates a nifty cloak for antisemitism from others.
One thing is clear, fans are not going to stop singing the word of their own accord and any efforts to stamp it out are likely to be met with very vocal resistance. But it’s about time for the club to show some leadership on the issue and start the process of getting the Y-word out of football stadiums.
Another season, another public round of hand-wringing over the use of the word ‘yid’ by Spurs fans. In the last week Tottenham Hotspur FC have sent emails out to fans like me asking our view on ‘the Y-Word’. Maybe this is the year the club finally puts its foot down, but I won’t be holding my breath.
We’ve been here before, more than once. In 2010 David Baddiel made a short film for Kick It Out which challenged the use of the word yid by football fans. In 2012 Peter Herbert of the Society Of Black Lawyers called for prosecutions for the use of word at football grounds.
A year later in 2013, amid further discussion about the singing of the word ‘yid’, the then Prime Minister, David Cameron (remember him?) weighed in explaining that it was fine when it was sung by Spurs fans because ‘”You have to think of the mens rea. There’s a difference between Spurs fans self-describing themselves as Yids and someone calling someone a Yid as an insult.’
In 2012 Spurs responded to criticism over the use of the word yid by fans in the following terms: ‘Our guiding principle in respect of the “Y-word” is based on the point of law itself – the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used i.e. if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence… Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect antisemitic abuse.’
It was the events of 2013 that were a turning point for me as a Spurs fan.
I was a member of the club and attended several games at White Hart Lane each season.
At a game shortly after the Prime Minister’s comments I was sat in the South Lower surrounded by raucous fans shouting the word ‘yid’ louder and with more vigour than I’d heard before.
This was followed by a defiant ‘We’re Tottenham Hotspur, we’ll sing what we want.’
Only two people in my line of sight weren’t singing. Me, and a chap two or three rows below me in a kippah.
I’ve never felt more uncomfortable at a game and I decided there and then that I would stop attending.
I just could not stand to attend games and listen to thousands of people shout a viciously racist word as if it were nothing.
Chanted by thousands of people who would never have to know the pain of that word directed at you because you are Jewish.
As with any such grand gesture, I kept it up for a while, allowing my membership and season ticket waiting list place to lapse.
However, I must admit that I’ve relented somewhat and attended a few games here and there although never at my pre-2013 rate. I’ve been a Spurs fan for more than 30 years, it’s not such an easy thing to give up.
In short, it is unacceptable that the word ‘yid’ is chanted with impunity by thousands of football fans, every week of the season. It is embarrassing that the club have failed to take effective steps to stamp out its use and it is high time that it did so.
The most obvious argument in favour of stopping its use is that it’s a term of racist hate against Jews. That alone should be enough to ensure that fans take steps to eliminate its use in football chants. It would be unacceptable to use any other term of racist abuse in a football chant regardless of any argument about nuance and context. I see no compelling reason why ‘yid’ should be subject to different rules.
Next, it is often said (as it was by the club in 2012) that Spurs fans have effectively reclaimed the Y-word and have used it to deflect antisemitism. Comparisons have been made with the purported reclamation of the N-word.
The fatal flaw in this argument is that the Y-word is not one Spurs fans have the right to reclaim as their own. The great majority of Spurs fans who chant the word ‘yid’ are not Jewish and are thus at no risk of actually having it used against them as a term of racial hatred. Indeed, even if the Y-word had been ‘reclaimed’ by Jews (and it clearly hasn’t) it wouldn’t be for non-Jews to use the word as and when they see fit.
Finally, rather than deflect antisemitism, chanting the word ‘yid’ normalises and perpetuates its use by fans of other clubs. As long as Spurs fans chant it, so opposition fans can chant it back in songs of their own devising.
Those songs might be about a parsimonious yid too stingy to buy a round or perhaps be a little more ambiguous in their intent. It’s the use by Spurs fans that creates a nifty cloak for antisemitism from others.
One thing is clear, fans are not going to stop singing the word of their own accord and any efforts to stamp it out are likely to be met with very vocal resistance. But it’s about time for the club to show some leadership on the issue and start the process of getting the Y-word out of football stadiums.
BPR_U16
Well-Known Member
- Jun 28, 2006
- 1,789
- 2,630
I havent put any rating against this for it is up to us all individually to decide whether to use the term ot not or determine if racist.
You however have to disagree or put wtf against everyone that does not agree to your view.
That just makes you look stupid who is not open to discussion. My way or no way sort of guy
NayimFTHL
Well-Known Member
- Jul 9, 2017
- 102
- 499
And yet you do the exact same thing?
Lilbaz
Just call me Baz
- Apr 1, 2005
- 41,363
- 74,893
You do realise that everyone in this thread understands those arguments just disagrees with them? The guy writing that article is more ignorant than anyone in this thread of how and why we call ourselves yids. We never normalised calling our jewish fans yids. That was other supporters, we just refused for them to be isolated and abused. So we all identified with the name as a fight against racism.
Why is it offensive? What is the actual meaning of the word? What other words should be policed incase they cause offence? As cameron said there has to be mens rea otherwise anything can be deemed offensive to somebody.
NayimFTHL
Well-Known Member
- Jul 9, 2017
- 102
- 499
So 'everyone' understands the argument yet still disagrees? Smh. Fwiw I sit in park lane and I hear it less and less every time I go. And eventually they will put a stop to it because to a lot of ppl it is offensive as the article shows. You can be stubborn and disagree all you want but that's the truth. When the club enforce the ban other clubs will enforce it too. Were in 2019 not the seventies
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