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Discussion in 'Spurs Chat' started by OmarsComing, May 2, 2012.
Firstly, I always very readily admit when I'm wrong so I'll be damned if I can't be smug when I'm right ;-)
Secondly, if you look at our ppg ratio with 442/4411 with just one DM this season and with 433/4231 this season I don't see how you can argue that the latter would reap more points in a season.
Whilst looking at PPG is part of it, you also have to take a wider view of how the games went. For example in one of the games that was 4231 we had Defoe upfront on his own so the fact that that didn't work doesn't mean the formation is wrong. Similarly if you look at some games where we played 4411 and won, we were very luck to do so (Fulham away being a case in point).
As has been pointed out in here and elsewhere numerous times, it does depend alot on what team the opposition play. If we go 442 vs another 442 then I fancy us to win on quality alone. If we go 442 against a 433/451 then I always fancy us to get bullied in midfield.
I suppose the point is that it's good that we can play either formation and we just need our manager to know when to pick either one. Unfortunately I don't think Harry has really bought into the 4231 and it doesn't look like the players have been coached on how to play it effectively. If that is the case then we may as well just plough in with 4411 in every game.
Why do you say that?
Apparently we've been great everytime we've played it so it must have been well coached, no?
We've been more compact and looked less likely to concede, which I think is a good starting point particularly away from home.
But they don't seem to have worked out how to get the best out of Modric and VdV in that formation, although the Norwich away game gave a glimpse as to how well that system can work if everyone gets it right.
Good post, and that's the nail on the head.
I am a bit late posting but I thought we played really well the other night. I thought we looked a bit like we did earlier on in the season when we was playing so well, playing nice football, looking dangerous when we attack, making nice one two passes, I thought we started the game really well as usual, we were passing the ball around nice and our movement was better we did do a few sloppy things again but I think we looked much dangerous and our passing was much more faster and we just looked more like of a threat as I think we have been so sloppy lately. I was pleased with the first half performance
2nd half we started poorly and Bolton come out and had a go at us, put the pressure on and scored. I have to admit as soon as they scored I thought that was it, we would crumble, our heads go down and they would probably win it but we come back and played some really good stuff again and scored some magnificent goals, the movement and passes from some of them goals were great.
I really like sandro starting in that midfield. Overall a very good performance a few sloppy moments but I thought we played well and was great to see such great goals. I enjoyed it.
friedal-6 done ok, still worries me.
Walker-6 done ok, again worries me and got the wrong side a few times yet again and nearly cost us , again not great going forward either.
Gallas-7 done well, done his job, there was one moment where he nearly fucked up from a long ball over the top but managed to sort it out. done his job.
Kaboul- again did well
Rose-6.5 still not good enough for me IMO, he was sloppy in his passing, gave it away in silly positions again, he did not get forward down that wing enough and his crossing is awful, he trys hard and does dpo some good things but just not amazing.
Lennon-7 thought he looked lively, and again showed glimpses of what he can do, he started the game well and looked dangerous, some some good things and made some decent runs thought he done very well for one of the goals,
sandro-7 good game again, breaks up play well and passes it well, good game,
VDV-7 great finish for the goal, worked hard and some some good things, good game
ade-7 was having a bit of a shocker in the first half, again he done some good things, but kept giving it away and not holding the ball up well enough, and was just genereally a bit slopy but 2nd half was different and got some good goals that he could not really miss but got in good positions.
I question who you're "telling so" though, and what you think it is they have said?
I guess if someone had said 4-4-1-1 could never work, was shit, and that 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 always worked and should never be varied, then the games against Blackburn and Bolton might have proved them wrong, you right, and you'd be justified in the smugness (meant in the nicest sense of the word ).
In fact, everyone thinks 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 can be very effective in the correct circumstances - as has been shown countless times this season - and 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 can be ineffective. No one's suggested that there's only one way to play, and you must stick to it.
Another point that's been made numerous times is that whatever system you play it's about the players you play in it (although this is partly implicit in the standard understanding of each suggested formation), and the way they are drilled to play it, this is far more important than merely saying play 4-2-3-1, or 4-4-2 or whatever.
On the PPG question, I argue that we would have done better in many of the games we played 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 in, had we employed a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3, as I said in my previous post this is not a provable argument, and someone else could as legitimately say we'd have done far worse, but I think the two home matches against Bolton and then this week's away match illustrates the point even if they can't prove it. In the abandoned match they dominated our 4-4-2, in the replayed match we switched around and dominated them playing 4-2-3-1, in the recent home game we ended up winning comfortably, but we gave them a sniff at the start of the second half.
I argue however that against Blackburn 4-4-1-1 was the best formation for breaking down that defensive of Blackburn's, but I wouldn't have started that way unless I knew Blackburn were going to play that way.
The question I'd ask you is what, using the Bolton match as a case-study, do you think was demonstrated about the strengths of the 4-4-1-1 we played? Say why you think a 4-2-3-1 would have been less beneficial, what weaknesses did that 4-4-1-1 expose (if any)? Would 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 have been any stronger? If not why not?
I re watched the whole game last night, so I'll do ratings:
Friedel 6 decent save from Ngog, albeit it was close range right at him, and is still glued to his line at all times.
Walker 7 good peformance overall, linked up well with Lennon and gave him two fabulous through balls - kept Petrov on his weaker side for the most part.
Gallas 6.5 solid and steady, didn't do much wrong at all.
Kaboul 7.0 commanding and strong in the air, as always, a good solid performance.
Rose 6 was ok, tries hard but just lacks composure on the ball at times.
Lennon 7.5 good final ball for Adebayor, and great run/movement for initiating Modric's beauty of a pass. Linked well with Walker and overall I thought his movement was good.
Sandro 7.5 handled Davies very well in that spell at the start of the second half, resulting in three corners. Great industry in the middle for us.
Modric 8.0 MOM was involved in all four goals in some capacity - so was pretty much at the heart of everything. Great goal, sublime ball to Lennon and instrumental in the build up to VDV's goal as well.
Bale 7.0 Set up Adebayor brillantly with the exchange with VDV, good play and assist for VDV's goal. Frustrated me first half though, still pulls out of challenges and looks lazy off the ball.
VDV 7.0 not quite his usual self, should of probably scored first half and I felt he looked a little leggy at times. However he took his goal superbly, first time just easing it into the corner - a big goal and a big moment in the game. Nice build up play with Bale for the fourth.
Adebayor 7.0 his touch let him down, and us, numerous times. Wasn't great overall, but he did score two and effectively killed the game for us.
Separate names with a comma.