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#61
In the first pic you can see Drogba's onside, looking along the line and about to angle that little run he likes to make, Gallas and King have their eye on the ball. Lampard's looked up seen Drogba and is thinking about the angled through-ball/cross. Walker's got a split second decision, is Drogba onside or offside? Is Lampard going to play the ball? If Drogba's onside and Lampard plays the ball can anyone get back? Walker does the sensible thing and tracks a run which could very well be onside. Lampard doesn't play the ball to Drogba, but to Mata who immediately picks out Ramires' run, and that move of Walker's to cover the threat of Drogba a moment before, suddenly looks ill-advised, and everyone on here, examining in minute detail three frozen moments in time and comparing to an ideal line of four in their minds, groans and blames each person who's not in that rigid line.

But this is what we mean when we talk about attackers having clever movement, when we talk about playing in the hole and pulling defenders out of position through the positions we take up. It tends to happen more however, when you're under-manned, when you haven't the spare man, then someone's got to take responsibility for the man on the ball and this is what leads to defenders getting pulled out of position. Stick Sandro or Livermore in that midfield and immediately you've got someone patrolling that area which Mata's just waltzed into. King doesn't step out, Ramires is covered. BAE's correct because he's got an eye on the over-lapping full-back. Walker's covered Drogba's aborted run and steps out smartly again. Parker's arriving fast from the blind-side of Mata, nicks the ball of his toes, and Bale's nicely advanced with Modric not far behind to launch the counter.

That's it in a nut-shell. Simple as.
In the first picture, Drogba is offside. Can we all agree on that?
 
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#62
In the first pic you can see Drogba's onside, looking along the line and about to angle that little run he likes to make, Gallas and King have their eye on the ball. Lampard's looked up seen Drogba and is thinking about the angled through-ball/cross. Walker's got a split second decision, is Drogba onside or offside? Is Lampard going to play the ball? If Drogba's onside and Lampard plays the ball can anyone get back? Walker does the sensible thing and tracks a run which could very well be onside. Lampard doesn't play the ball to Drogba, but to Mata who immediately picks out Ramires' run, and that move of Walker's to cover the threat of Drogba a moment before, suddenly looks ill-advised, and everyone on here, examining in minute detail three frozen moments in time and comparing to an ideal line of four in their minds, groans and blames each person who's not in that rigid line.

But this is what we mean when we talk about attackers having clever movement, when we talk about playing in the hole and pulling defenders out of position through the positions we take up. It tends to happen more however, when you're under-manned, when you haven't the spare man, then someone's got to take responsibility for the man on the ball and this is what leads to defenders getting pulled out of position. Stick Sandro or Livermore in that midfield and immediately you've got someone patrolling that area which Mata's just waltzed into. King doesn't step out, Ramires is covered. BAE's correct because he's got an eye on the over-lapping full-back. Walker's covered Drogba's aborted run and steps out smartly again. Parker's arriving fast from the blind-side of Mata, nicks the ball of his toes, and Bale's nicely advanced with Modric not far behind to launch the counter.

That's it in a nut-shell. Simple as.

But Walker is looking along the line, surely he can see that Drogba has drifted offside, he doesn't need to cover his run, he just needs to let him drift offside - which he would have been by a yard and a half - and his run is meaningless, because we are holding a good line. Other team's do this to Defoe and Adenayor frequently (nearly ever attack in Defoe's case).

What we don't know is whether we are taught to do this as a unit or not. With Redknapp and our coaches I take nothing for granted, but it's a pretty simple drill for most teams.

They stuff about our pressing in midfield is all true and was shambolic on Sunday, but I personally think you are being very kind to Walker who often demonstrates a lack of intelligence in his defending. He often recovers situations because of his pace and tenacity and this masks the initial error, but even in that game sunday he made a couple of bad ones. First half he allowed himself to get wrong side and it was only Mata's poor control when clean through that got Walker off the hook. In his defence he also made a good last minute challenge in the six yard box that saved another situation, but it is what he should be doing.
 

sloth

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#63
In the first picture, Drogba is offside. Can we all agree on that?
Yes. Although it's pretty border-line.

But it's irrelevant to the main point, which has nothing to do with a (imo) spurious, fine-tooth combed analysis of the anatomy of a goal (the application of which would apply equally to every goal we've conceded this year probably, if presented in three still-shots), but why players are getting pulled out of position.
 

sloth

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#64
But Walker is looking along the line, surely he can see that Drogba has drifted offside, he doesn't need to cover his run, he just needs to let him drift offside - which he would have been by a yard and a half - and his run is meaningless, because we are holding a good line. Other team's do this to Defoe and Adenayor frequently (nearly ever attack in Defoe's case).

What we don't know is whether we are taught to do this as a unit or not. With Redknapp and our coaches I take nothing for granted, but it's a pretty simple drill for most teams.

They stuff about our pressing in midfield is all true and was shambolic on Sunday, but I personally think you are being very kind to Walker who often demonstrates a lack of intelligence in his defending. He often recovers situations because of his pace and tenacity and this masks the initial error, but even in that game sunday he made a couple of bad ones. First half he allowed himself to get wrong side and it was only Mata's poor control when clean through that got Walker off the hook. In his defence he also made a good last minute challenge in the six yard box that saved another situation, but it is what he should be doing.
Sorry BC, I think this kind of thing's a bit of a waste of time tbh. People are making judgements in the light of three moments frozen in time and trying to be critical of split-second decisions in that light. Basically I think that you could apply the same analysis to every single goal any team concedes anywhere, and most of the time you'd be able to make a similar critique whether it be Barcelona, Utd or Real Madrid doing the conceding.

More to the point, as I said to JH, I think its missing the point. A spurious side-show to the real event.
 
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#65
Yes. Although it's pretty border-line.

But it's irrelevant to the main point, which has nothing to do with a (imo) spurious, fine-tooth combed analysis of the anatomy of a goal (the application of which would apply equally to every goal we've conceded this year probably, if presented in three still-shots), but why players are getting pulled out of position.
Borderline, my arse, sloth. I analyse all our goals in the same manner. I'm not laying all the blame at Walker's door-not at all. I am more annoyed with the lack of cohesion. Cohesion's the big buzzword round here these days and the lack of it is evident in those pictures. This is par for the course with us-this basic lack of organisation-the team shape is all wrong to begin with and that's the root cause here IMO and we come down like a house of cards. It's just not often that someone goes to the trouble of putting some pictures up and I don't have a clue how to.
 
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#66
And I'd like to add that I have watched this passage of play repeatedly on my dvr in addition to studying these three pictures.

Drogba's got to be at least a yard offside in the first shot.
 

sloth

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#67
And I'd like to add that I have watched this passage of play repeatedly on my dvr in addition to studying these three pictures.

Drogba's got to be at least a yard offside in the first shot.
Fair enough mate, as I say it's not something I think's important for the reasons previously stated, so I'll duck out at this point.
 

sloth

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#70
All this because you won't have a bad word said about Walker, sloth?
Paint it that way if you like JH - who knows maybe there's even an element of truth in it? - from where I'm sitting though it seems that in my original post I was exonerating everyone from the criticism previously directed at them, but one or two of you particularly took exception to me exonerating Walker and chose to focus in on that, and I've been defending my first point in that light. I sort of think that if people had taken exception to me exonerating Modric or BAE then the last few posts might have been me defending them in the light of what I think's important (or not).

Basically I think this kind of fine-tooth combed analysis is misleading/spurious in the first place, and distracting in the second, from what I think is the more interesting underlying reason for this goal and the over-all defeat in that game.

But I doubt I'll convince you to see it the same way.
 
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#72
Paint it that way if you like JH - who knows maybe there's even an element of truth in it? - from where I'm sitting though it seems that in my original post I was exonerating everyone from the criticism previously directed at them, but one or two of you particularly took exception to me exonerating Walker and chose to focus in on that, and I've been defending my first point in that light. I sort of think that if people had taken exception to me exonerating Modric or BAE then the last few posts might have been me defending them in the light of what I think's important (or not).

Basically I think this kind of fine-tooth combed analysis is misleading/spurious in the first place, and distracting in the second, from what I think is the more interesting underlying reason for this goal and the over-all defeat in that game.

But I doubt I'll convince you to see it the same way.
Ultimately I blame the manager. No free ride for Walker, however.
 

stemark44

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#76
Borderline, my arse, sloth. I analyse all our goals in the same manner. I'm not laying all the blame at Walker's door-not at all. I am more annoyed with the lack of cohesion. Cohesion's the big buzzword round here these days and the lack of it is evident in those pictures. This is par for the course with us-this basic lack of organisation-the team shape is all wrong to begin with and that's the root cause here IMO and we come down like a house of cards. It's just not often that someone goes to the trouble of putting some pictures up and I don't have a clue how to.
I would agree totally with this.

I thought we looked really amateurish against Chelsea and in a number of other games recently.
 

Damian99

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#77
Yes i have already said Walker got himself into a terrible position. I also feel King gets drawn to the ball/player to early. Sadly one players bad decision at the wrong time, can lead to others making similar poor ones, or being forced into making one they don't want to make.

I have know idea why BAE isn't further round nearer to King. I also feel we don't have many players who are clever enough to beable to read a situation before it's happened. I know no one can know for sure exactly whats going to unfold, but intelligent players can generally read it before it's happened and react accordingly.
 
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#78
I would agree totally with this.

I thought we looked really amateurish against Chelsea and in a number of other games recently.
I agree. We all sit here and say that this Chelsea side is vulnerable and over the hill but the difference between us was that they were getting the fundamental stuff right on Sunday-defensive shape, pressing and so on. I lost count of how many times I could clearly see their two lines when we had the ball and not a single white shirt in between them. And then we get the media saying it's soft old Spurs and a lot of vague shite from players and management about character. I say balls to that. I say it's a basic lack of organisation. But there are people on here who will explain it more eloquently than I do.

I thought this was a great article, by the way-http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/04/16/chelseas-change-in-defensive-system-under-roberto-di-matteo/
 
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#79
Yes i have already said Walker got himself into a terrible position. I also feel King gets drawn to the ball/player to early. Sadly one players bad decision at the wrong time, can lead to others making similar poor ones, or being forced into making one they don't want to make.

I have know idea why BAE isn't further round nearer to King. I also feel we don't have many players who are clever enough to beable to read a situation before it's happened. I know no one can know for sure exactly whats going to unfold, but intelligent players can generally read it before it's happened and react accordingly.
I think someone is always going to get sucked out when the midfield disappears into thin air, Damian. It also looks like Gallas is ballwatching. Cudicini didn't make himself big enough either. And I do not particularly rate BAE. I thought he made a number of awful mistakes on the day. We can always say that Walker has time on his side but BAE should really have his shit together by now.
 

Damian99

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#80
True enough about having to step out from the Centre of Defence when your midfield has gone AWOL. I am no professional footballer or manager, but i just think Kings gone just a little bit to early on this occasion. Again it boils down to making the right decision at the right moment, it's a very very fine line.
 
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