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Spurs' Man of the Match


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mpickard2087

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Jun 13, 2008
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19,493
#81
Its why I started the thread about who should be LB for the QPR game and was surprised that nearly everybody thought Naughton should be a shoe in for it. I'm not saying that he should be over looked, no way, but I think we were lop sided at times last night.

I agree with Bear that he's filling in well enough, but we are losing impetus down that left hand side on the ball.
If Naughton was fit then I would keep him in the team in all honesty, I think he is doing well and on the balance deserves his place We have to accept that he isnt going to go down the outside and live with it. I think in the other thread I suggested that Bale would have to stay wider for longer periods to compensate for this. Obviously with someone like Dempsey ahead of him though it does become an issue. Bale at left back though is an option for home games and is something I would like to revisit this season to see how it goes, certainly for Sunday if Naughton is out then I'd prefer this than to move Vertonghen out from the centre of the defence.

Naughton does look like he has some intelligence and can use the ball pretty well. Maybe next time he plays on that side a tactic to get more from him in an attacking sense would be that if Bale is holding the width then Naughton looks to 'underlap' him, if he picks the ball up 10-15 yards in field then this gives him more options and he has shown he can use the ball pretty well, it could allow him to offer more going forward.
 

Mr Pink

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#82
Was that a failure on Naughton's part, or on Bale's - who, several posters have pointed out, is not always punctilious in his defensive duties, and hasn't ben firing on all cylinders himself?

What were Naughton's instructions?

And he did actually get forward and did put some good balls in - just because some posters noticed and remembered that he hung back on occasions and that is what stuck in their minds, doesn't mean he never did anything attacking at all.
Just my overall feeling SP, I'm not being dogmatic or anything - I don't think I'm 100% correct on it, just my overall feeling on it.

And with Bale playing ahead of him its far from ideal even if Bale worked a bit harder last night.

I would drop Bale back to LB, and play the relatively industrious Dempsey ahead of him - who obviously carries a massive goal threat.
 

Nocando

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Mar 11, 2012
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2,648
#83
Lloris - 7

Walker - 7
Caulker - 7
Vertonghen - 7
Naughton - 7

Sandro - 7
Dembele - 8
Dempsey - 7

Lennon - 7.5
Defoe - 7
Bale - 6.5
I don't think you are too far wrong. I think everyone played well overall, it's just that we missed that little bit of magic (VDV???). Dembele made a couple of bad passes, which may have resulted in a lynching if that were Jenas for example, but I think I am able to accept them just by the way he plays and the fact he adds so much to the team, so I would even agree with the 8 you gave him and even bearing in mind those mistakes. I was gutted to lose VDV but it just may be that Dembele makes up for that somewhat if he continues to play like he has so far.

I think Walker is in that same bracket too. Makes a few bad mistakes but also does some excellent work and shows enough to convince me he is going to be a very good player for us.
 

StartingPrice

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#84
Can we please stop with this thing about how Kyle Naughton is some kind of 16 year old child who should get higher marks because he is 'young'. He's a month off being twenty-fucking-four! He has made nearly 150 senior club appearances and has made more than a few appearances for England U21s!

Jesus we have some proper wet fish around the plaice at the moment...
No-one, so far as I know, said he was a child - I said he had just broke into the team. The two do not necessarily correlate - unless you are saying Brad made his debut for us last season, ergo he is in his early teens (fuzzy logic, Mr Bear, fuzzy logic - yeeeeeessssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh).
He is in exactly the same position as Walker was last season, albeit a tad older, and I make exactly the same point about him last season, when getting unfair criticism (and with certain folk going totally overboard on him).
 

Mr Pink

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#85
If Naughton was fit then I would keep him in the team in all honesty, I think he is doing well and on the balance deserves his place We have to accept that he isnt going to go down the outside and live with it. I think in the other thread I suggested that Bale would have to stay wider for longer periods to compensate for this. Obviously with someone like Dempsey ahead of him though it does become an issue. Bale at left back though is an option for home games and is something I would like to revisit this season to see how it goes, certainly for Sunday if Naughton is out then I'd prefer this than to move Vertonghen out from the centre of the defence.

Naughton does look like he has some intelligence and can use the ball pretty well. Maybe next time he plays on that side a tactic to get more from him in an attacking sense would be that if Bale is holding the width then Naughton looks to 'underlap' him, if he picks the ball up 10-15 yards in field then this gives him more options and he has shown he can use the ball pretty well, it could allow him to offer more going forward.
I think he's done well - but mainly because he's a RB playing at LB. If I wasn't factoring that into it, I would be worried if he was going to be playing long term at LB for us.
 

StartingPrice

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#86
Just my overall feeling SP, I'm not being dogmatic or anything - I don't think I'm 100% correct on it, just my overall feeling on it.

And with Bale playing ahead of him its far from ideal even if Bale worked a bit harder last night.

I would drop Bale back to LB, and play the relatively industrious Dempsey ahead of him - who obviously carries a massive goal threat.
And I'm not saying Naughton is either the long term solution, Mr P, or the next best thing since sliced bread. Just that he was one of several players who had equally good games last night, IMHO, and therefore I personally would make the slightly controversial decision to make him my MOM because he is just breaking into the team and he is playing technically out of position, which gives him just that slight edge, IMHO, over the several other players who I would rate at the same grade.

Bale at LB :stinkyfeet: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :sneaky:
 

Spurs_Bear

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14,175
#87
No-one, so far as I know, said he was a child - I said he had just broke into the team. The two do not necessarily correlate - unless you are saying Brad made his debut for us last season, ergo he is in his early teens (fuzzy logic, Mr Bear, fuzzy logic - yeeeeeessssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh).
He is in exactly the same position as Walker was last season, albeit a tad older, and I make exactly the same point about him last season, when getting unfair criticism (and with certain folk going totally overboard on him).
SP, without wanting to start War and Peace, I have not seen anywhere on this forum people give Naughton any kind of harsh or unfair criticism, all I have seen from a lot of people is too much praise, when clearly he is a player that is doing a job as a fill in and if you went anywhere near a neutral last night and told him "yeah mate, our right back who looked as if he had shoes on the wrong feet (tongue in cheek for playing on the wrong side..) was our MOTM, defo" they would quite rightly laugh you all the way back to your version of Fifa 13.

All I'm asking for is perspective.

PERSPECTIVE.
 

StartingPrice

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#88
SP, without wanting to start War and Peace, I have not seen anywhere on this forum people give Naughton any kind of harsh or unfair criticism, all I have seen from a lot of people is too much praise, when clearly he is a player that is doing a job as a fill in and if you went anywhere near a neutral last night and told him "yeah mate, our right back who looked as if he had shoes on the wrong feet (tongue in cheek for playing on the wrong side..) was our MOTM, defo" they would quite rightly laugh you all the way back to your version of Fifa 13.

All I'm asking for is perspective.

PERSPECTIVE.
I have seen a lot of harsh/unfair criticism, like I said, some of it going back two season to certain posters slating him and saying he would never make an EPL player (I have a long and anally retentive memory :oops:).
And my PERSPECTIVEas stated clearly for even dullards to understand is that, the way I saw the game, he was one of several players I would have graded similarly, but gave him MOM (my, personal, MOM), on the basis that he is breaking into the team and playing out of position. I'm not demanding that you agree with that, but I hardly think it is mental - which is what you said.

Also, as I have said a few times, now, remembering that he hung back on occasions does not mean he offered no thread on the left at all - he actually did get forward a bit and put interract with Bale pretty well, and get some decent crosses in - now, that is persepctive.
I'm not saying he is great, nor the long term solution, nor even that he was head and shoulders above any other player last night (I went out of my way to sue that very term), just, in lieu of any other player being head-and-shoulders above the rest, and him being about the same grade as several of our players* I would award him my MOM, even though I knew it would be a bit controversial.

*And, as I said above, to me it jsut shows how we actually had a team who performed as a team last night - which has surely got to bode better for the future than having a few stand-out individuals carrying the rest.

How's that for PERSPECTIVE!
 

Spurs_Bear

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#89
I have seen a lot of harsh/unfair criticism, like I said, some of it going back two season to certain posters slating him and saying he would never make an EPL player (I have a long and anally retentive memory :oops:).
And my PERSPECTIVEas stated clearly for even dullards to understand is that, the way I saw the game, he was one of several players I would have graded similarly, but gave him MOM (my, personal, MOM), on the basis that he is breaking into the team and playing out of position. I'm not demanding that you agree with that, but I hardly think it is mental - which is what you said.

Also, as I have said a few times, now, remembering that he hung back on occasions does not mean he offered no thread on the left at all - he actually did get forward a bit and put interract with Bale pretty well, and get some decent crosses in - now, that is persepctive.
I'm not saying he is great, nor the long term solution, nor even that he was head and shoulders above any other player last night (I went out of my way to sue that very term), just, in lieu of any other player being head-and-shoulders above the rest, and him being about the same grade as several of our players* I would award him my MOM, even though I knew it would be a bit controversial.

*And, as I said above, to me it jsut shows how we actually had a team who performed as a team last night - which has surely got to bode better for the future than having a few stand-out individuals carrying the rest.

How's that for PERSPECTIVE!
Terrible, actually.
 

StartingPrice

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#90
Terrible, actually.
Which is funny, because I think your perspective has actually gone to pot on this issue.

So much so that you feign to believe he did nothing in the offensive third at all.
Loon Attic.

Anyway, since it's all good, clean subjective fun, may I suggest I am totally right and you are totally wrong (y)
 

Mr Pink

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#91
SP it was a bit mental to give him MOM, you were clearly drinking last night and you went a little too far with trying to be different in awarding him MOM :)

Just admit you were wrong and we can end this discussion, its good to be able to do that sometimes :D


(holding red flag to the proverbial bull :nailbiting:)
 

Spurs_Bear

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Messages
14,175
#92
Which is funny, because I think your perspective has actually gone to pot on this issue.

So much so that you feign to believe he did nothing in the offensive third at all.
Loon Attic.

Anyway, since it's all good, clean subjective fun, may I suggest I am totally right and you are totally wrong (y)
All I will say, is go back to the post I said was 'fucking mental' and see what other parts of the sentence I could have been saying was mental.

"He looks like has been playing left back his whole career."

Well I don't know about you, but that's pretty mental.

Can you give me an example of anything he did in the offensive third please. I honestly cant remember anything, and I saw quite a bit of him second half as he was spitting distance from me.
 

StartingPrice

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#93
SP it was a bit mental to give him MOM, you were clearly drinking last night and you went a little too far with trying to be different in awarding him MOM :)

Just admit you were wrong and we can end this discussion, its good to be able to do that sometimes :D


(holding red flag to the proverbial bull :nailbiting:)
I'm wrong...he's a :censored:

Happy, now, you bullying, badgering B'stard :cry:

All I will say, is go back to the post I said was 'fucking mental' and see what other parts of the sentence I could have been saying was mental.

"He looks like has been playing left back his whole career."

Well I don't know about you, but that's pretty mental.

Can you give me an example of anything he did in the offensive third please. I honestly cant remember anything, and I saw quite a bit of him second half as he was spitting distance from me.
1) Fair point - and I did <LIKE> the fella's post rather than <AGREE>ing with it, for that very reason, because he doesn't look like he has been playing there all his life, and I don't think he is the long term solution.

2) I can tell you he did, I can't give you any examples without watching the match again, and I don't have a recording of it. Maybe you could watch the game in the cold light of day and note all of Naughton's contributions (visible), and then tell us if you were a little harsh or whether he really did nothing offensive all game and I was blinkered by my need to scream hacking IT B'Stards?
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
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Dec 7, 2006
Messages
7,483
#94
Enjoyed the game, plenty of skill on display from both sides.
Bit cagey and tactical at times but not boring just because of that.
Lovely to see the ball being moved from the back purposefully with two centre backs
that know when to move into midfield with the ball.
How can Gallas can replace Caulker(7) for the next game?
Or Friedel replace, ( first clean sheet of the season) Lloris?(7)
alert and aware throughout.
Sandro (8) was excellent.
Best of all though was Vertonghen (8.5) whose use of the ball is composed
and he drives the team forward constantly.
Sigurdsson is possibly not quite as good as I had hoped
and Dembele(6) perhaps better though he was a bit hit and miss last night.
Bale, Lennon and Defoe (6) all put in decent shifts but not quite there.

(8) for AVB for being true to his word to take this seriously
and for giving the team good purpose and shape against a decent team
albeit at home.
Remember this time last week we were in crises mode prior to total meltdown
now people are moaning because we didn't beat the current top team in Italy.
Give it time people. We have the players and now a manager
that can take us to the next level.
The talk of the appointment of Baldini indicates that we are going forward and upwards.
 

stemark44

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
6,598
#95
Very impressed with our performance last night and against Reading at the weekend and things are beginning to look good.
Let's not get too carried away but we look a powerful and well drilled outfit,we lack a bit of craft up front but other than that there is little to be negative about.
Let's keep it going and if the team keeps improving and results go our way,we could do alright this season.
 

stevenqoz

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Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
2,632
#96
I think that is a quantum misread of what took place.



Last night was about being cohesive, dynamic, about movement and ball retention. Huddlestone would not have helped those qualities, he would have hindered.

My point is that too often Sandro ended up with the ball and lacked the touch to move it on quick enough.....Huddlestone even if not a dynamic 90 minute player could have brought something different......Sandro Sig and Dempsey all looked incapable of making a difference through a pass tonight.....you don't agree
 
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
506
#97
1) Are you suggesting I do. I was making a point of principle, based on the consistent application of set standards. Why do you have to interpret that as something petty?

2) TBH, I'm not really sure to say about that. On the one hand, I haven't actually seen it so can't comment on it's inherent craziness or otherwise. On the other hand, for nine posters to <DISAGREE> with you on one post on a ratings thread does actually suggest that there was something outlandish or unreasonable about it in some way that you have failed to recognise. I could be wrong, of course...if you give me a link I will have a look and see if I can make sense of it for you.

3) That is slightly different to my meaning. If one person gave you a neg in a way that seemed unreasonable, then I would say, for the sake of the consistent application of the agreed standard, maybe you should have done. But for nine posters to do so, again, suggests that it was something more than you saying Player X had a good game when it was only average. The main part of my point being that if you get one unreasable neg then, in my opinion, as it is a <DISAGREE> over a reasonable subjective opinion, it is apparent that you disagree with the negger, also, and it is only fair to apply the same standard for consistency sake. But if you get lots of negs on one post you do look kinda pathetic negging everyone that negged you because it doesn't show up much for them, whereas it does for you, and you look like a feeble child shaking your fist at the teachers for giving you an F on your report. And, again, for nine (NINE) posters to neg you over one ratings post suggest that you didn't just state a bare opinion on performance as Omar did in his post, here.

4) I disagree. There is nothing childish and petty in ensuring an agreed standard is adhered to. To me, what is petty is the giving of negs, ever, on subjective opinions about players when you could discuss them, instead, and this is, after all, a place for discussion.

5) Meaning? I've took far more than <DISAGREE> on the chin in my life, you aren't a superior being or holding any moral ground jsut because you didn't make yourself look foolish in negging nine (NINE - can't get over that) posters in retaliation, for what seems to have been something that must have riled people in some way.

6) Well, if all you did was gave a fair assessment of the game, they should have explained why not, and I would have been the first to defend you on those grounds. If all you did was list players and grade their performance, or stated that player X, Y or Z had a good, bad or indifferent game, even if I totally disagreed with your assessment, I would ahve said it smacked of cyber-bullying for so many members to neg you at the same time. But, again, I can't really say whether it was a wholly outlandish post or not, because I haven't seen it. Bearing in mind, of course, that there would be a big difference between you saying Dembele earned a 5, and just average, against Reading if I thought it was more like 7, on the one hand, and you saying he was an anonymous :censored: and giving him a 1 (in which case I would probably grade it <DUMB>, too, as being totally outlandish).

7) Was it? Why was it? Was it because you did say something totally outlandish? Or because you don't see that the whole system will actually become something petty and childish if it isn't applied consistently?

8) And I comment, on that basis only, to explain why it is problematic doing so, without any background information. Shock horror. Now, if it transpires that your post that got nine (NINE :eek:) negs was wholly outlandish, whereas there is nothing outlandish in Omar's post whether you disagree with it or not, I would say my point stands - there was no reason to give Omar a neg. If, on the other hand, you said nothing outlandish and yet still got nine negs, I would again say it seems a bit like cyber-bullying.

9) I explained in the post you quote why it is problematic. I also suggest you visit the thread discussing the rating system where you will find a debate discussing these issues, and more, in detail.

10)
A: If your only reason for rating Omar's post as <DUMB> when it clearly wasn't was because he rated your post as such elsewhere, then you are being a bit more vengeful than you pretend. Especially if there is nothing <DUMB> about his post (I can't see anything) but there was something outlandish about yours (the one that got NINE negs :eek:).
B: Sorry, but that doesn't actually make sense: he gave you a neg there (earlier on the linear time scale), in response to something you did here later on the linear time scale?

11) Neither am I, are you implying I am? I've argued the piont on a range of issues here, where I was virtually the only one taking a given line. But the key point word here is argued - I am happy and willing to debate my viewpoint, I don't see the need to give negs to every single subjective opinion that disagrees with mine.

12) See 11, above - are you suggesting I am only here to blow smoke up anyone's arse, or have it blown up mine? I have taken a stance on some issues when seemingly the whole forum disagreed with me. I just don't see the point in distorting and potentially destroying the forum by misapplying the rating system. It is much more conducive to harmony to give a positive to someone who does agree with your viewpoint, if that was all that was at issue, here, than to indulge in petty vendettas.

13) I agree. You don't seem to have done this here. And, as suggested in 12, above, if everyone just rates every single, simple subjective opinion they disagree with as negative the place will soon descend into a chaos of petty vendettas and confrontations.

Again, I would suggest you check out the ratings thread, and take your discussion there...or, if you did say something utlandish elsewhere (to earn NINE negs on one post) then finally just accpet that, rather than carrying a righteous anger at everyone who pointed this out to you, into other threads.





Sorry, Bear, to intrude on a personal disagreement, but the fella was agreeing with me, and I never said that Naughton had some kind of perfect game, just that he was one of many who I would put on a similar grading (perhaps reflecting how much of a team game it was last night), and on that basis I would give him MOM largely because I think there is too much crap being spouted on this forum about a young player appearing in the team for the first time and playing out of position, who has played reasonably well. And this is something that has carried over from the season before last, when certain posters where, basically saying crap, sell/will never make it as an EPL player, when they could hardly have seen him play and therefore have any idea of how good (or otherwise he would be).

You might disagree with making him MOM on that basis, which is fair enough, or even that he was one of several players on similar grades, which, again, is fair enough, but there is nothing mental about it at all.

Also, he may have hung back on occasion (do you know what instructions he was given?), but it is just not true that he didn't get forward or that he was ineffective when he did.

Ok to be clear, I did not rate Omar’s post as dumb at any point, nor have I rated any of his posts as dumb. I disagreed with his original ratings, though there were others who did call it dumb and another person who - like me - disagreed with the original post.

Simply put, the timeline of events was as follows:

10:38 PM, Sept 20th - Omar posted match ratings
10:50 PM, Sept 20th - I disagreed with match ratings
11:10 PM, Sept 20th - Omar then found my last post (which happened to be the one VS Reading from 5 days ago) and rated it as dumb

The original point I made stands – Omar gave me a negative rating as an emotional response to me disagreeing with him on his match ratings.

In my opinion that was a petty response, in your opinion he was within his rights to do this as you perceive his post to be reasonable and that I was unreasonable in disagreeing with him.

That is where we stand – and that is your opinion which is fine – I still stand by my reasons for disagreeing with his original post (the fact is that 7 people also agreed with my reasoning while 3 other users rated Omars original post with negatives, and nobody agreed or was positive about his original post).

Based on the feedback of others on my reasoning and on Omars original post, I am not sure how you can perceive my original disagreement with him on his match ratings as unreasonable? Therefore the response on his part of rating one of my old posts (created 5 days ago) was unreasonable.
 

StartingPrice

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#98
Ok to be clear, I did not rate Omar’s post as dumb at any point, nor have I rated any of his posts as dumb. I disagreed with his original ratings, though there were others who did call it dumb and another person who - like me - disagreed with the original post.

Simply put, the timeline of events was as follows:

10:38 PM, Sept 20th - Omar posted match ratings
10:50 PM, Sept 20th - I disagreed with match ratings
11:10 PM, Sept 20th - Omar then found my last post (which happened to be the one VS Reading from 5 days ago) and rated it as dumb

The original point I made stands – Omar gave me a negative rating as an emotional response to me disagreeing with him on his match ratings.

In my opinion that was a petty response, in your opinion he was within his rights to do this as you perceive his post to be reasonable and that I was unreasonable in disagreeing with him.

That is where we stand – and that is your opinion which is fine – I still stand by my reasons for disagreeing with his original post (the fact is that 7 people also agreed with my reasoning while 3 other users rated Omars original post with negatives, and nobody agreed or was positive about his original post).

Based on the feedback of others on my reasoning and on Omars original post, I am not sure how you can perceive my original disagreement with him on his match ratings as unreasonable? Therefore the response on his part of rating one of my old posts (created 5 days ago) was unreasonable.
I'm not disagreeing with either your right or your reasoning for grading thr players differently to Omar. I am saying I don't know why you, or anyone else had to rate his gradings as <DUMB> <DISAGREE> <OLD> or anything negative. I may make some tweaks, but tehre is nothing crazy there. I don't see why you couldn't have just provided your gradings as an alternative. Unless there is another agenda here, I so no reason why so many have rated that post so negatively, otherwise. It is possible that quite a few posters ar unhappy with Omar's usage of the ratings system to neg them, lately, in which case they should be up front about it.

You are now saying you just <DISAGREE> with his gradings, and that he went tit-for-tat on you. Well, yeah, you did, however, say he did it to you as one of nine negs you got on a post, and that you were applying the same standard to him - and what I am suggesting is that you aren't really being consistent. If you made a post that was outlandish or offensive and got negged by a lot of posters (and NINE is a lot), then maybe you should accept that you were off the mark and move on, rather than negging him for a perfectly reasonable post and pretend you are being consistent, and not pursuing a vendetta. Because, from the outside, taht is exactly what it looks like from here - I can see no other reason for you or anyone else grading that post negatively.

And I repeat, again, there is a thread on this, already.

And, just to be clear, I am not on Omar's side - I jsut thnk that post is a perfectly reasonable one, whether I agree with it exctly or not, and cannot see why you, or anyone else would neg it unless it was to pursue an agenda, and if I were to state a subjective opinion, like that one (that is clearly not outlandish) I would think that someone <DISAGREE>ing with it held an opinion contrary to my own, and I would only be being consistent in gradaing their subjective opinion the same - if one had been posted (it's hard to disagree with someone who negs you and then doesn't post their contrary opinion, unless you neg a random post negatively because they habven't made a post stating explicitly the opinion that is contrary to yours and they have negged you on, which, to me, seems fair enough, as to not put your counter opinion down and invite respective negging is actually a bit cowardly).
 

sloth

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Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
8,995
#99
Very impressed with our performance last night and against Reading at the weekend and things are beginning to look good.
Let's not get too carried away but we look a powerful and well drilled outfit,we lack a bit of craft up front but other than that there is little to be negative about.
Let's keep it going and if the team keeps improving and results go our way,we could do alright this season.
Actually agreed with that but negged you just for old time's sake :)
 
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
65
What did everyone think of Townsend when he came on? Admittedly it was only a fleeting appereance (just like Reading on Sunday and pre season games). He seems to have good skill set. He is powerful, quick and very direct. He looks quite raw though. With AVB's coaching and some more game time think he has some good potential.
 
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