"2 points from 8 games" - SO WHAT!!!!!

[StartingPrice]

I think this was a major factor in losing the dressing room. Our players weren't professional enough to take it on board and didn't like being told what to do. I think is says a lot about the mentality of our players at the time.

I agree.
But this is probably one of the areas were the communications difficulties really hampered him getting his message over.
Mind you, there is the infamous story of John Collins (I think at Hibernian) trying to get the message over by lifting his shirt and showing the players his six-pack and comparing their flabby bellies unfavrouably - probably a good idea Wandery didn't try that one

 

[TheGreenLily]

Honestly, I've been growing so tired of hearing this over the last number of weeks/months - first in support of Harry and now in the vast array of articles about his sacking.

But rather than being a typical thread of rant, what I wanted to do was prompt some discussion on that particula time 4 years ago.

My personal opinion is that whoever was brought in to replace Ramos would most likely have had the same effect. I don't believe it was anything particularly to do with Harry himself, although I acknowledge that one of his stronger points is his famed man management skills, the arm around the shoulder technique. But its not like we had a crap squad, in fact we had the makings of a fairly decent squad, some of who are still there. What Ramos did wrong has been well documented and discussed and IMO the players had got caught in the ever increasing spotlight and were losing whatever fragile confidence they had left. So what we needed was a change of manager. I'm not for one second disputing what we achieved under Harry over the four years, but solely focussing on his initial few months I honestly believe that whoever could have taken over would probably have had the same outcome.

Thoughts??

I thought the problem with Ramos was that he was strict on the diet and wanted to turn the players into super fit athletes so they could play the game at pace. I remember hearing that he liked two wingers bombing forward and two strong defensive midfielders and the front men, probably with support from the full backs. It is what I remember, or the way I remember it at least.

But the players revolted as they was not being pampered too and didn't want to play for him.

I think Ramos did nothing wrong, and if the players didn't throw a strop and throw the teddies out the pram then I think Ramos would have had chance and he could have done just as well for us as he did for Seville.

 

[Eric_s]

I thought the problem with Ramos was that he was strict on the diet and wanted to turn the players into super fit athletes so they could play the game at pace. I remember hearing that he liked two wingers bombing forward and two strong defensive midfielders and the front men, probably with support from the full backs. It is what I remember, or the way I remember it at least.

But the players revolted as they was not being pampered too and didn't want to play for him.

I think Ramos did nothing wrong, and if the players didn't throw a strop and throw the teddies out the pram then I think Ramos would have had chance and he could have done just as well for us as he did for Seville.

I agree. Although the results were poor, the football we played under Ramos was good. Like the way we outplayed the arse home and away in the league cup.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

AVB???

Not in a million years would he have turned us around like Harry. In fact we may well have been relegated

 

[Mullers]

I think this was a major factor in losing the dressing room. Our players weren't professional enough to take it on board and didn't like being told what to do. I think is says a lot about the mentality of our players at the time.

I agree with Misfit I am not convinced much as changed, that being the case I think it could be a major problem for AVB if he took over.

 

[AngerManagement]

I thought the problem with Ramos was that he was strict on the diet and wanted to turn the players into super fit athletes so they could play the game at pace. I remember hearing that he liked two wingers bombing forward and two strong defensive midfielders and the front men, probably with support from the full backs. It is what I remember, or the way I remember it at least.

But the players revolted as they was not being pampered too and didn't want to play for him.

I think Ramos did nothing wrong, and if the players didn't throw a strop and throw the teddies out the pram then I think Ramos would have had chance and he could have done just as well for us as he did for Seville.

I think Ramos did plenty wrong, although I do see your point in as far as the players certainly contributed strongly to his downfall with their own attitude.

Not dissimilar to AVB's time at Chelsea perhaps.

That being said I think we were sold a dude in Ramos and bought in to a myth because of the success of his Sevilla side, a quick study of the rest of his managerial history suggests his time at Sevilla was maybe flattering to deceive and other factors may have been large parts of their success as well as his own contribution.

I do think there was an issue with player attitude and I do think its a problem in the modern game, but then I suppose that is part of the skill set a manager needs now days.....being able to implement such changes whilst still commanding respect and getting results. So the very fact Ramos was unable to do so without commanding respect and getting the best out of our players suggests at least one thing he did very wrong (you don't see Sir Alex losing the players when he rules an with an iron fist over them for example)

I think interviews with Jenas certainly support your view point though, he said he thrived under Ramos and thought his style and regimen got him fitter than he'd ever been and playing the best he'd ever played and had more players had a similar attitude to Jenas perhaps Ramos would have been more successful or at least less of a disaster.

As I say though, this is all part of the modern game when managing superstar young millionaires and a big part of the skillset a manager needs is the ability to command respect and get the players wanting to play for him. In fact interviews I've seen from Adebayor when talking about Jose suggest this is one of the biggest tools in Jose's arsenal and a huge reason he is so successful and probably a massive reason why Ramos was only successful when everything was going well but he was unable to manage through adversity.