2 tier system - has it worked ?

[dannythomas]

4 years into the Director of Football - Head Coach 2 tier system . Has it worked ? Of course the basic idea is that the coach concentrates on coaching while the DOF sets the strategy with particular reference to conducting transfers.

It got off to a good start when Santini left ( although one of his reasons for going was that he didn't like the system ) and Arnesen was able to correctly point out that Jol could move seamlessly into the Head Coach role . Indeed Jol and Arnesen had a very close working relationship and Jol was happy to work with what he was given in terms of playing staff.

So it looked like it was working- a coach can leave and the DOF simply brings in another one with no disruption.

But what happens when the DOF leaves ? He is the guy who has selected the player purchases ( with lesser or greater consultation with the Coach ). So a new guy comes in ( Comolli ) and what happens if he doesn't like what he inherits ? Continuity out the window. We start all over again and guess what ? He doesn't get on with the Head Coach. Jol doesn't like the changes and the DOF decides he wants Jol out.

So another new Coach comes in. Ramos surprise surprise is not crazy about what he inherits and there is talk of a mass clear out. Continuity about to go again. Over 4 years we have already bought 48 new players. Are we about to get 7 or 8 more ?

Now this last part at this stage is just heresay . It hasn't happened yet. But posterson here and the papers are suggesting it will . And if it does ? That would appear to blow Comolli's credibility out of the water. And the 2 tier system with it. Should Ramos and his own appointees decide on transfers ? Should we do away with the 2 tier system ? Or just appoint someone better than Comolli ? But wouldn't that be the tail wagging the dog ? Answers on a post card please .....

 

[KentuckyYid]

Two 5th finishes and a micky mouse cup is a whole lot more continuity (of the positive kind) than we had before!

 

[Destroyer]

I think if we hadnt been unfortunate enough with what happend with Arnesen, maybe it would be easier to use your judgement at the moment ? Damien Commoli has been heavilly critisised by many on here, whilst praised by others. I think Ramos is the best signing we have made in the last 3 years, yet i do believe we have stepped up - even if we did have a poor 'League' season, i think the Carling Cup win was a good merit of the progress slowly being made. As one part of the jigsaw fits in, one always seems to fall out ?? However, Ramos will get it right & take us to the promise land 'Champions League 2010'.

 

[dannythomas]

Two 5th finishes and a micky mouse cup is a whole lot more continuity (of the positive kind) than we had before!

You could of course argue that is in spite of the 2 tier system not because of it.

 

[Flatters]

You could of course argue that is in spite of the 2 tier system not because of it.

How, exactly? :lol:

 

[Gilzeanking]

Posted in error...see 'Keegan's comments' thread

 

[muffwah]

4 years into the Director of Football - Head Coach 2 tier system . Has it worked ? Of course the basic idea is that the coach concentrates on coaching while the DOF sets the strategy with particular reference to conducting transfers.

It got off to a good start when Santini left ( although one of his reasons for going was that he didn't like the system ) and Arnesen was able to correctly point out that Jol could move seamlessly into the Head Coach role . Indeed Jol and Arnesen had a very close working relationship and Jol was happy to work with what he was given in terms of playing staff.

So it looked like it was working- a coach can leave and the DOF simply brings in another one with no disruption.

But what happens when the DOF leaves ? He is the guy who has selected the player purchases ( with lesser or greater consultation with the Coach ). So a new guy comes in ( Comolli ) and what happens if he doesn't like what he inherits ? Continuity out the window. We start all over again and guess what ? He doesn't get on with the Head Coach. Jol doesn't like the changes and the DOF decides he wants Jol out.

So another new Coach comes in. Ramos surprise surprise is not crazy about what he inherits and there is talk of a mass clear out. Continuity about to go again. Over 4 years we have already bought 48 new players. Are we about to get 7 or 8 more ?

Now this last part at this stage is just heresay . It hasn't happened yet. But posterson here and the papers are suggesting it will . And if it does ? That would appear to blow Comolli's credibility out of the water. And the 2 tier system with it. Should Ramos and his own appointees decide on transfers ? Should we do away with the 2 tier system ? Or just appoint someone better than Comolli ? But wouldn't that be the tail wagging the dog ? Answers on a post card please .....

We don't have a director of football anymore

We have a sporting director. Quite frankly your assertion that the sporting director selects the purchases is a load of bullshit, as is the suggestion there will be a mass clear out, it is pure tabloid driven conjecture.

Perhaps if you based the argument on fact (ie that we have a transfer committee consisting of four people, always have done and it remains so) then it would be worthy of discussion.

Of Comolli's appointment Levy said, "His achievements at St Etienne show that he is also ideally suited to bring best practice to our training facilities, academy and medical divisions."

So doesnt sound like he is in charge of the manager and choosing all the player purchases does it?!?! :bang:

 

[Davey-O]

Its delivered 3 years of being in Europe and a cup. The future is also looking fantastic.

I'd say its been a relative success, but has had unexpected hiccups...ie. departures of Santini, Arsenen, Jol etc.

 

[Dharmabum]

First of all, Levy made it clear long time ago that it's down to a group of 4 men to decide on future targets: DoF, head-coach, chairman and one more (was Alexander I think) and NOT DoF alone as many seem to think.
DoF, together with the board, sat down and out-lined what kind of football style Spurs should play and hires personell (players, coaches etc) accordingly.
In clubs that still use the manager system there will still be the same problem in case of a change of manager: the new manager may not like the old players and would like to bring his "own" players.
Ny system is flawless, but I remember Whinger saying he would need a DoF after Dein left and Jol also said that he would need a DoF so he can concentrate of just footballing matters.
DoF is not just in-charge of scouting and buying players; he over-sees all kinds of activities taking place in connection with the club, like the work of the medics, acadmeny coaches etc.

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Whilst the club appears to be finding good solid footholds to climb higher up the list of clubs in this country, it still makes me scratch my chin that it's been over 20 years since we last had a manager who was given more than 3 terms in charge, apparently in persuit of this european style, departmentalised, management system.

I get the distinct impression that, whilst DC might have some wisdom to impart about the transfer system and have contacts that could be valuable to our scouts, he has very, very few skills in determining the possible ability of young players and is more businessman than anything else - i'm guessing he steps in when the contracts drawn up and plays with the players agents' hard balls...

sorry, plays hardball with the agents.

 

[eddiebailey]

So doesnt sound like he is in charge of the manager and choosing all the player purchases does it?!?! :bang:

Levy has actually gone on record as saying that Ramos is Comolli's choice of coach, that Comolli stands or fall on Ramos' performance.

 

[eddiebailey]

The system only works if the DoF and the manager are able to work together as a team. Arnesen did not want Santini, he always wanted Jol, and it was after Jol took over that we started to see results on the pitch. After Arnesen left, Jol proposed a number of names but was over-ruled, and Comolli was appointed. Jol and Comolli did not see eye to eye on and the tensions started show in performances on the pitch. Comolli has now brought in his own man. In theory this should result in a smoother working relationship, but I suspect he now finds himself as piggy in the middle between Ramos and Levy.

For what it is worth, I think Comolli has not been a success as DoF. Yes, since Arnesen left, we have had a formal collegiate system (though even under Arnesen the coach, chairman and secretary obviously had input). But it is Comolli's job to identify targets and assess their suitability, and the others are highly reliant on his judgement. That is why we have a DoF, because the coach does not have the time for this, and the Chairman does not have the technical knowledge. Under Arnesen we had a clear two stream transfer system, players who could go straight into the first team, and "ones for the future" who would be developed until ready for first team football. Comolli has tended to recruit players who fall between two stools, who are not yet Premierhip ready but who are expecting (and have been promised) first team football. This has thrown out the balance of the squad and tested the managerial skills of the coaches.

 

[eViL]

Yadda yadda yadda..

 

[Kendall]

Yes it has in my opinion.

Are we a better team now than we were 4 seasons ago? - yes

Are we a more attractive prospect for top players than 4 seasons ago - yes

Are we financially stronger? - yes


So progress has clearly been made, this in spite of the fact that we have had 2 DOF/Sporting directors and 3 managers since it's implementation. With a little bit more continuity we should see even better results.

 

[joey55]

I think we need to remember that this is the first time a Prem club has really tried to use this system and therefore a certain amount of evolution or tweaking is going to be needed. Also, this is Levy's first time as a Prem Chairman so he too is continually learning from his mistakes and successes.

The two tier system has been successful for clubs in Europe, so we tried it, but are finding the European system isn't neceassarily right for us. This doesn't mean the two tire system doesn't work, but that it just needs adapting over time. Initally it worked poorly as Santini wasn't appointed by the Sporting Director. We then changed coach and the Arnesen got his own man and things worked brilliantly. We then, however, saw a major flaw in the system. The idea is that by having a Sporting Director, it provides continuity through managerial changes and thus no major player upheavals are needed. But, this doesn't account for if the Sporting Director himself leaves prematurely as happened with Arnesen. We then were left with the odd situtation of appointing a SPorting Director who didn't seem to share the same phillosophy as the coach. So, again we have to learn and tweak the system. It's clear the coach must be appointed by the SPorting Director, so success/failure are a reflection on him, not just the coach. Also, it seems we've learned that in our system the first team purchases must ultimatley be the decision of the coach and not the Sporting Director.

Bascially, so far the two tier system had been a journey of discovery, rather than a success or failure. It hasn't worked in it's original format, but from that it has been evolved into something that can hopefully work for us. Comolli should be in charge of recruiting for the future and the general strucutre of the club, whilst Ramos, aided by the Sporting Directors scouting networks, should buy for the first team. This appears to be what is happening now and the future looks bright. In years gone by, if the manger left the whole club had to be restructured. Now if that happens, jst the first team will need changes and hopefully with a permanent scouting network, any changes can be made more smoothly and with greater knowledge. If the Sporting Director leaves, it shouldn't effect the coach or first team too much and the scouting networks are still in place. So, i think the system now certainly offers us more continuity, less reliability on key individuals and a more stable future.

 

[nickspurs]

Yes it has in my opinion.

Are we a better team now than we were 4 seasons ago? - yes

Are we a more attractive prospect for top players than 4 seasons ago - yes

Are we financially stronger? - yes


So progress has clearly been made, this in spite of the fact that we have had 2 DOF/Sporting directors and 3 managers since it's implementation. With a little bit more continuity we should see even better results.

Agree with each and nicely summed up.

Could it be better, sure. Could a non-DoF structure have done better over the same period? No one knows. But for me this is a better, long term approach.

If you get a SAF or a Wenger at the helm then sure, the old skool approach to structure is great. Problem is that you could spend years and millions finding one who can deliver what they have. The DoF approach hedges that risk. And we've improved as well so a success for me too.

 

[yanno]

I agree with many of the comments by Eddie Bailey and Joey55.

Personally, I'm still not convinced that a DoF system does anything other than ensure that the Academy, the scouting network and the training facilities are properly run. There are numerous cases of bust-ups at big continental clubs where the DoF and coach disagree on first team signings or playing styles or priorities.

A great example was when Barca's DoF signed Riquelme against coach Louis van Gaal's wishes. Van Gaal refused to change his formation and style of play to accommodate Riquelme, and thus a world-class player ended up failing at Barca.

Ultimately it comes down to making more correct judgements about players we're trying to sign than duff ones. Our transfer committee got it right with Berbatov and Bale, and so far seem to have got it wrong with Boateng and Kaboul in the sense that they are not ready for regular first team EPL football yet.

However Sevilla's DoF also wanted to sign the Prince Boateng, and only when we'd signed him, did Monchi turn to Keita who was cheaper and ready to go straight into a top La Liga team and play every week. So, some top European scouts (not just ours) seem to have got their evaluation of Boateng's ability level very wrong.

Which leads on to my fundamental point. I think management systems are largely a load of old tosh. In reality, success is delivered by top class individuals making a lot more correct decisions than duff ones. I see very little that the DoF is doing that couldn't be done by a Chief Scout and a Head of Academy Development - which by the way seems to be Frank Arnesen's real position at Chavski. And why? Because Mourinho was not prepared to report managerially to a DoF with real power and authority, so Arnesen's role had to be downgraded.

 

[dannythomas]

I agree with many of the comments by Eddie Bailey and Joey55.

Personally, I'm still not convinced that a DoF system does anything other than ensure that the Academy, the scouting network and the training facilities are properly run. There are numerous cases of bust-ups at big continental clubs where the DoF and coach disagree on first team signings or playing styles or priorities.

A great example was when Barca's DoF signed Riquelme against coach Louis van Gaal's wishes. Van Gaal refused to change his formation and style of play to accommodate Riquelme, and thus a world-class player ended up failing at Barca.

Ultimately it comes down to making more correct judgements about players we're trying to sign than duff ones. Our transfer committee got it right with Berbatov and Bale, and so far seem to have got it wrong with Boateng and Kaboul in the sense that they are not ready for regular first team EPL football yet.

However Sevilla's DoF also wanted to sign the Prince Boateng, and only when we'd signed him, did Monchi turn to Keita who was cheaper and ready to go straight into a top La Liga team and play every week. So, some top European scouts (not just ours) seem to have got their evaluation of Boateng's ability level very wrong.

Which leads on to my fundamental point. I think management systems are largely a load of old tosh. In reality, success is delivered by top class individuals making a lot more correct decisions than duff ones. I see very little that the DoF is doing that couldn't be done by a Chief Scout and a Head of Academy Development - which by the way seems to be Frank Arnesen's real position at Chavski. And why? Because Mourinho was not prepared to report managerially to a DoF with real power and authority, so Arnesen's role had to be downgraded.

I think this is in fact the key point-the Head Coach should decide what players he wants and ask the Chairman or if you like the Board or Committee to try and make it happen. A Chief scout and his network should have done the legwork and reported to the Coach on possible targets. But the Coach should make the final request . Not " I need a DM , go and find one. Zokora ? if you say so ". Rather " I want Gattuso. Can you get him ? "
The concept of the Coach reporting to a DOF/ Sporting Director is flawed. Why should he need to do that unless the Chairman , like Alan Sugar , knows nothing about football and / or is too busy with other interests and therefore needs a buffer ?

 

[nickspurs]

[/b]


I think this is in fact the key point-the Head Coach should decide what players he wants and ask the Chairman or if you like the Board or Committee to try and make it happen. A Chief scout and his network should have done the legwork and reported to the Coach on possible targets. But the Coach should make the final request . Not " I need a DM , go and find one. Zokora ? if you say so ". Rather " I want Gattuso. Can you get him ? "
The concept of the Coach reporting to a DOF/ Sporting Director is flawed. Why should he need to do that unless the Chairman , like Alan Sugar , knows nothing about football and / or is too busy with other interests and therefore needs a buffer ?

Our Chairman does not know enough about football and is indeed too busy with other stuff (new ground, commerical aspects, stock exchange....). I would say you proved yourself wrong there.