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A failure of leadership

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
I've given it 24hrs but it still hurts. But then those other collapses are still with us all after many years. I don't study the statistics of other clubs but I don't recall any of the current top six in recent years being 2-0 or 3-0 up and losing, and on two occasions by 2 goals.

So is it just a Tottenham thing? An example of our mental weakness, lack of team spirit or application, a lack of a tough core or spine? We can make excuses, blame the referee which is quite easy to do on this occasion, or dodgy pasta or whatever but its something that seems to be with us threatening to strike at any moment. We can never relax and enjoy the game because the team might buckle at any moment.

Currently we are on a very good run, still sixth in the Premiership form table, five consecutive clean sheets at home, out of the relegation zone to the edge of Europa qualification. Yet apart from this Saturday there was Blackburn and those other defeats which still burn in the memory.

There was a collective failure of leadership on and off the pitch on Saturday. Harry who I have acknowledged as our saviour this season showed why some, including me, doubt his overall ability. The box marked 'next level' on Levy's office wall chart will have been given a question mark.On Saturday when calm appraisal, and reaction to events was required we got nothing other than a double substitution on 86mins. We got theatrics and playing to the gallery. Harry froze just as the team itself did.

On the pitch Keane who might well have been substituted in the last three games also went missing. Being captain gave him the apparent right to roam anywhere and to neglect his role as support for Bent and link to the mid-field. Making him captain was a hostage to fortune. He did little to justify his selection as a player or as captain which requires head as well as heart. We lost it in tactical and formation terms all over the pitch.

The poor penalty decision certainly marked a change in the attitude of both teams: Man Utd. sensed that their luck had changed and we seemed to believe that it was only a matter of time. Suddenly they had energy and belief and we had neither. The quick equaliser confirmed this view in both sides.

Now was the moment to act and I cannot believe that there was no plan B for such an event. Plan A was clearly blame the referee and cross your fingers. We lost our shape at the back and individual errors, bad luck and the sudden surge of attacking football played at high pace which we simply couldn't cope with announced the inevitable.

Am I calling for heads to roll? I most certainly am not as it is our recent stability under Harry that has brought rich dividends and we need more of it not less. Do we need more beasts in midfield to aid Palacios in his mission to search out and destroy? Not if we want a Tottenham that plays good football, which we have been doing lately. Palacios was fortunate to escape a red card on Saturday for a desperate lunge. Destructive midfielders need to have a positive side and either way are of no use to us in the dressing room before half time.

Two footballing myths were also exposed. Firstly that if we go out 2-0 up for the second half and keep it tight for 15 minutes everything will be fine. Secondly that if we can just get that vital second goal the game is more or less safe. We did both on Saturday and lost.

We can still make Europe if that's what we want; we have a quality squad although we must keep Modric; we are playing well most of the time but on and off the pitch as Kipling wrote some-one needs to keep their heads when all about them others are losing theirs. I hope he wasn't in the crowd on Saturday but with that attitude he's not likely to be a Spurs fan.
 

lis spur

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2006
2,593
6,020
at times ledley looked like the player he now is ,one with a buggered knee.woodgate looked like he was running in sand ,and corluka is plain slow and no right back.the pace of utd exposed this.ledley is imperious when he has time to read the game however utd with there tails up where at him and our back four.of course this raises the age old spurs question the defensive midfielder but this was negated by ferguson putting rooney on the flank and tevez attacking the heart of our defence.
all the answers too this fall at harrys door ,i agree he is a good coach,but he has stepped up a level at spurs and its important that you have a plan a,b & c ;one things for certain ferguson did ,dont have to be good though when you have luck on your side (ref penalty)!
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
42,449
77,954
We haven't let a 2 goal lead slip too often over the past few years though. I've seen Champions League teams collapse in a similar manner to us at Old Trafford. We have lacked a few characters for sure, but i think we have as much character as any team outside the top 4. I could possibly add Arsenal to that too (last season springs to mind with Gallas). We're very much a confidence side though, and we rely a lot on playing our game. But we do have more fighters since January, and i think Harry will bring a couple more mentally strong players in the summer. But i dont think its all that bad. If we had let more leads like that slip of late, and against lesser teams, i would be more worried. But i think we're stronger now than we were against Burnley. That was the defining game for Harry to strengthen, and he did that to an extent in January.
 

Jules77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2008
1,227
1,284
We haven't let a 2 goal lead slip too often over the past few years though. I've seen Champions League teams collapse in a similar manner to us at Old Trafford. We have lacked a few characters for sure, but i think we have as much character as any team outside the top 4. I could possibly add Arsenal to that too (last season springs to mind with Gallas). We're very much a confidence side though, and we rely a lot on playing our game. But we do have more fighters since January, and i think Harry will bring a couple more mentally strong players in the summer. But i dont think its all that bad. If we had let more leads like that slip of late, and against lesser teams, i would be more worried. But i think we're stronger now than we were against Burnley. That was the defining game for Harry to strengthen, and he did that to an extent in January.

Agree. The OP is an overreaction. It happens rarely to us (prob the same rate as anyother team?) but you feel it more and for longer because when it happens to the team you support. This probably gives it a feeling of occurring at a greater frequency.

And it was Manu FFS. they played very very well in the second half. and they are actually fighting for something very real.
 

Innes

New Member
Dec 7, 2006
19
1
2-0 up at Old Trafford and I was in dreamland. We win corner right before halftime and I'm thinking 1 more goal before the break would do it for me. What do they do? Play it short, and fart arse around as though the fulltime whistle is about to blow. That sent a negative signal to me and my fears were justified when the 2nd half started and United were swarming all over us. The penalty call was doubtful but not shocking, what was shocking was the way we capitulated after that. Give Harry time to see if he and Spurs can take it to "the next level". The Top 4 have had their respective breakthrough point and I'd love to see an old local geezer who has done the hard yards in the English game be the man to do it with Spurs.
 

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,760
5,496
Agree. The OP is an overreaction. It happens rarely to us (prob the same rate as anyother team?) but you feel it more and for longer because when it happens to the team you support. This probably gives it a feeling of occurring at a greater frequency.

It would be interesting to see the figures. I don't know if we lose from leading positions more than other clubs (I doubt it), but these fairly spectacular collapses seem to be a Spurs thing, even if there are only less than a handful of them - the 5-3 to United at home, the one against city in the cup when we were 3-0 up and against 10 men and again on Saturday. Are there more? Are there any memorable ones for other clubs? I recall us turning Charlton over under Jol when we were 2 down, but I'm not aware of other instances where we've come back from 2 or 3 down to win.

Over to the Stattos
 

lazarus

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2004
6,101
96
Not sure what the point was to your article; apart from slagging off 'your' club, team, manager and chairman.

After reading Tsun Zu's Art of War, you obviously know that when you are under attack from the best offensive team in the premiership and facing their biggest guns at once (all 120 million, maybe 200 million? worth) the best defence is ...more defenders hanging around in your box?

Er...no.

That it; its more midfielders watching the ball passed through them!

No.

The best defence (as the saying goes) is a good offence.

So...what were our attacking options on Saturday again? Sorry? can't hear you pal.

None. that's right: None, zero, zilch, nada, zip, squat, diddly...nothing.

So before you get on your championship manager playing high horse about Harry 'frozen' I suggest you retake your basic football tactics 101.

Respect to Ferguson for recognising our predicament and taking full advantage. Still a bit of a cnut for harping on about Berbatov being 'fantastic' (which he wasn't), but you don't get to win as much silverware as he has without being bloody good at your job.

Saturday wasn't a 'Glenda at white hart lane 5-3 reverse'. It wasn't inept/slow witted management that cost us; merely bad fortune and weak willed refereeing.
 

spurs_viola

Rui Costa,dreamspurs no10
Mar 10, 2005
2,454
0
Agree about Keane and his captaincy restricting the options for the team now.
Harry has not been flexible enough to replace "his" captain even when Keane's ineffectiveness as a player and as a captain becomes quite obvious.
BTW, saw Keane in Cipriani restaurant today, he was having lunch with someone who looked like an ex-footballer (a bit like Jason Cundy with a mini-goatee) or someone from the agency that represent him. He was sitting just a few tables away, and I was very tempted to come over and ask him what happened to the team in the 2nd half - but it wasn't the place or the time to do that there.

Also, how disappointing that Ledley King has not - and will not now - become a leader he should have been. He has now played in more than one capitulation by Spurs, most notably 3-4 v Man City at home and now this 2-5 debacle.
And on Saturday he had a very experienced Woodgate next to him, not someone like Gary Doherty...
 

spud

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2003
5,850
8,794
Two observations:

1. It's easy to piss and moan after the event, but in amongst all of the criticism I don't see even one constructive suggestion as to what he might have changed.

2. If (as you imply) he should have replaced Keane, who could he have used? Pav was injured, Defoe away on a family matter, and Campbell ineligible.

I don't like much of what 'Arry says, but find it difficult to fault what he has done. Perhaps changes should have been made. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps you could enlighten as as to what.
 

Boony

Active Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,475
0
Hang on here, it was a one off from what I would say has been a good season for us, considering the start. Man United have even have even lost to Liverpool 4-1 and have just put it behind them.. I suggest we do the same. Harry has done wonders this year, killed our top 4 vodoo`s and has given us an excellent defensive record since he joined.

He couldnt really have done much more, as the atmosphere in the club would have been a nightmare when he joined.

For all your doubters out there, go doubt somewhere else. I love my club and I thank Harry for keeping my club in the Premier League... I nearly hit depression earlier this year... imagine being a Newcastle fan at this moment in time.

What a nightmare losing to Man United Away ay ? Jesus
 

Paxtonite

Active Member
Nov 28, 2004
1,956
32
What a nightmare losing to Man United Away ay ? Jesus

We didn't just lose though we got humiliated in the end and people are laughing at us for blaming THAT penalty decision. The same way we got humiliated at WHL when winning 3-0 to lose 5-3; the same way to being 3-0 up at WHL to 10 man citeh and losing 4-3; the same way to almost being humiliated by Burnley after letting a 4-1 lead slip.

These performances should happen once in a blue moon and not as often as this.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
It was pretty obvious in the first half that Evra was completely unable to deal with Lennon and that Nani was (as usual) a waste of space. Why didn't Ferguson do something about it after they went 2-0 down instead of waiting until half-time?

Probably because making changes on the hoof when you're on the back foot is liable to cause even further disarray, not improve matters.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
First, I am not now and never have been a member of the 'slag off Tottenham' party. My piece acknowledges that we played well for an hour ,that Harry has been our saviour, that we have a good squad, and are on a good run. How much positivity do you guys want?


Second I am not paid squillions a year to manage the club. This is not a tactics masterclass. I am a fan like you.


Thirdly I call it as I see it and am not a member of the Tottenham PR staff intent on congratulating ourselves for a 5-2 whacking when there are serious matters to address.


. If you want to adopt the 'Ostrich' approach and put it all down to an unfortunate blip, poor refereeing, couple of individual errors, bit of bad luck then fine. You may be right but I prefer to look at it more closely and see if there is anything to be learnt before we move on.


Blackburn was a 'blip' eight minutes when were disorganised and unfocused , lost a couple of goals after playing well for 80 minutes. Losing 5-2 after playing well for an hour and conceding 5 goals in 20 minutes is an avalanche not a 'blip'.


I try to look carefully at what happens on the pitch, reflect on it and post some observations and draw some conclusions, and in this case put it into some kind of historical context.


We can all look at the bench and suggest some positive reactions to the situation. Doing nothing didn't work and as at Blackburn when Palacios was sent off, fans all over the country were crying out for a response. Harry reacted quickly at Villa, replacing Zokora with Corluka and we won.


Attacking options were limited but if Bentley is on the bench he should be available to play. Put him on the right ,Lennon on the left,Modric in midfield and sub Keane. Now the truth is I don't have a clue whether this would have affected the result and nor do you.


For every suggestion I might make there will be howls from some people that it wouldn't have worked. If Keane cannot fulfil his tactical role, go 451 with a proper midfielder, Zokora or Huddleston in his place. Sub Corluka, who was having a poor second half for Hutton.


I agree with the point about attack being the best form of defence and would prefer not to sub Lennon or Bent and to stay 442 .


Doing something might have convinced the team that someone apart from Ferguson was in charge.
I note that so far no 'statos' have popped up to disprove my idea that this might be a Tottenham thing.
Thankyou for your responses and back to you.
 

rooster1

Namahage
Oct 9, 2006
883
1
I agree JG2 that keane was ineffective and jj was somewhat lost
in the 2nd half as well as our defence who were in 6's and 7's.

I think rooney on the left took us all by surprise. He was too quick
for Corluka.

The subs I would have made at 2-2 would be
"Hutton on for corluka". This would of given us an attacking option
on the right to break the siege .
"Zokora on for Keane". When hutton gets forward he can fill in.
Bent and Lennon has the front two.

That leaves us with a 4-4-2.
A quicker attacking defence. A more solid mid and two fast front men.
 

WhippsX

New Member
Aug 3, 2006
109
0
I totally agree with JG2's summary of events. The team capitulated after the penalty. Fergie changed his team to all out attack & it worked. We should also have changed tactics to try and reverse their momentum. Keane, Corluka, JJ were ineffective. Replace them - Hutton, Hudd, Bentley. No one knows if this would have saved our day, but to make changes in the 86th minute when down 5-2 is useless. I also think 'arry "froze". He has done a wonderful job this season but to my mind had an off day last Saturday.
 

Si*

New Member
Jul 23, 2007
4
0
Makes it exciting to be a fan of a football club though hey!? Would you rather support Watford?
It grates me too that we can let great leads slip but we're only a Leader or a couple of team members short of becoming stable. Anyway, it's pure typical Tottenham to behave in this manner so sit back and enjoy the ride! :)
 

adwanhussein

Member
Feb 22, 2007
321
0
Webb was the catalyst on that infamous evening.Spurs played Man united at wembley and they held them at bay.Same at WHl .But the transgressian of refereeing in the EPL can deflate the best of teams.As an international viewer and a spurs admirer i felt downcast at the inepitude of EPl officiating and the injustice of refereeing against Spurs.Can't blame spurs players if they feel EPL referees are cohorts with one of the top four to defeat them,even when they were leading by two to nil.
 

lazarus

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2004
6,101
96
I don't think I could ever qualify as an ostrich; and I've never been a fan of Redknapp either.

However there was, and still seems to be little point to your article other than perpetuating the 'Spurs have a soft centre' myth.

If you can tell me what the obvious benefits are to the management, team and fans of keeping that rubbish assumption alive; then I'll eat my words.

And statistically; I believe, prior to Saturday we had the best record for not letting a goal lead slip in the premiership.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
I don't think I could ever qualify as an ostrich; and I've never been a fan of Redknapp either.

However there was, and still seems to be little point to your article other than perpetuating the 'Spurs have a soft centre' myth.

If you can tell me what the obvious benefits are to the management, team and fans of keeping that rubbish assumption alive; then I'll eat my words.

And statistically; I believe, prior to Saturday we had the best record for not letting a goal lead slip in the premiership.
Never be afraid to release your inner ostrich friend.
I don't attribute our collapse to our 'soft centre' but specifically to a lack of leadership on and off the pitch.
I certainly raise the question of whether Spurs are particularly prone to dramatic collapses and I think the jury is still out.
The fact that we have an excellent record this season of defending leads makes it more puzzling and leads me to look in greater depth at what happened.
A poor decision, bad luck, and individual errors doesnt go far enough in my view to explain what happened. However I have already accepted that you may be right.
If the 'soft centre' myth is just that and is a 'rubbish assumption' then you are right it is of no value to anyone. The question is 'Is it?'
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
We've had similar collapses before (I can recall several from the 60s) and will have them again. By the same token, we've seen Spurs pull back from a seemingly impossible situation on at least three occasions in the last couple of seasons or so. Some of us are also forgetting that United themselves, after looking increasingly threatening before our first goal, were hanging on for dear life for the rest of the half.
 
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