A question about coaching world class players...

[Nerine]

Ok. I'll keep this as brief as possible.

Basically I was thinking just now about our defence and how we largely seem to have a sweeper of sorts when the other defenders venture up the pitch. Then I got thinking about Lloris, and his role as sweeper keeper sometimes. And then I got to thinking about who instructs their actions...

And then I took it a step further.

So my question, which is probably multi-faceted is thus.

Let's crank it up a notch. How could you coach a world class player, such as Lionel Messi, to improve his game? Like, what can the attacking coaches at Barcelona actually tell him any more? Surely he's got to be one of the best, if not the best player the world has ever seen, period. So other than keeping him mentally on the case, and fit, how can you improve his play? Surely he is better than the coaches??

And let's filter that down...

So what happens when the players you have are better than the coaching staff you have?

For example, say one of our midfield coaches was Tim Sherwood. Used to play, obvs. Decent player. Say we still had Luka Modric. What on earth would Sherwood be able to coach him on?

Yes, they could work on control, touch, etc. But surely the, "right, in this situation, you really need to be doing this, here when the ball's here, don't do this etc etc." kinda stuff is a bit moot? As Modric is a far better player than Sherwood ever was.

This isn't a diss at Sherwood, as he was obviously doing decent work behind the scenes before he took over as manager, but it sprung to mind as being relatable.

So going back to the Messi example, like, other than just kinda telling him to keep doing what he's doing, keeping him good mentally, and generally keeping him fit and sharp, what the fuck can you tell the bloke?

Is anyone really gonna try to coach him on dribbling for example?!

Hope this question makes some kind of sense.

I guess in a nutshell, surely some coaches aren't/weren't as good as the players they're now coaching, so why should the players listen to coaches that weren't as good as they are. (Other than they're paid to, obviously. And also disregarding the coaching that got them to a good level in the first place.) Basically what happens when the players all round game becomes far superior to the coach's?

Like, who's telling Bale and Ronaldo how to improve etc? Sure, tell them what to do in terms of the formation and system etc, but beyond that, what is there?!
Unless they literally just become motivators???

I've probably missed something really obvious, or maybe I am overthinking it, but it's something I thought may prove a decent discussion.

If not, I'll just post up a gif or some fresh meme or something...

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Everyone can be coached. The coaches roles are in teaching team-tactics, and also refining technique - that the coaches can observe from an objective point of view. Maybe the coach can spot a bad habit or tendency, or has drills to improve specific aspects of a players game.

Consider that the worlds top golfers have coaches - despite being better individually skilled than their coaches.

 

[Col_M]

Let me coach you on how to "make it as brief as possible"

 

[Gb160]

Everyone can be coached. The coaches roles are in teaching team-tactics, and also refining technique - that the coaches can observe from an objective point of view. Maybe the coach can spot a bad habit or tendency, or has drills to improve specific aspects of a players game.

Consider that the worlds top golfers have coaches - despite being better individually skilled than their coaches.

This...a third party can often spot imperfections in technique, regardless of their own standard.

Just check out the match threads for literally thousands of examples of this.
Actually don't, they're utter cat shit most of the time.

 

[Spurger King]

I think there's always going to be a few things that someone can impart to another. For example, someone who isn't a greasy, odious slimeball would be able to teach Ronaldo a thing or two.

 

[michaelden]

Ok. I'll keep this as brief as possible.

Like, who's telling Bale and Ronaldo how to improve etc? Sure, tell them what to do in terms of the formation and system etc, but beyond that, what is there?!
Unless they literally just become motivators???

Michael Phelps had a swimming coach. The worlds best swimmer had someone pointing out things he couldn't see to help improve his times but hundredths of a second.

No one can tell these guys everything, but they can point out tactical issues, how better to make space, and other tricks.

 

[dontcallme]

The best coaches aren't always the best players. In fact they rarely are.

I remember when Ginola was being touted for manager jobs and people were talking about the flair he'd teach his players. He wouldn't, he could not teach them to be David Ginola. Same for any player.

Harry Kane and Ricky Lambert have both praised Poch for his coaching of them. Poch was a defender.

A huge amount of the management of top players would be about teaching them good training techniques, tactics, conditioning etc. Also just the general management of people.

The idea that only Pele or Maradonna could coach Messi is spectacularly off the mark.

 

[Shadydan]

I think you need to manage their ego's more than anything and you still need to apply direction and structure.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

Messi is the best player I've ever seen. He may be the best player ever.

But if he was perfect he'd never miss, he'd score twelve goals every game, Barcelona would never lose, Argentina would be perpetual World Cup winners....

You don't need to be better than Messi (fat chance) to be able to help him think about what he does and how he does it, how to make the most of his extraordinary talents, manage his energy, fitness, tactical thinking, help him to understand and work with the abilities, strengths and characteristics of his team-mates, and probably loads other things.

A bit of tax advice maybe...

 

[jurgen]

The old Sacchi quote: "I never realised that in order to become a jockey you have to have been a horse first"

 

[Spurs' Pipe Dreams]

Weaker foot, repetition, fitness, positioning, tactics with and without the ball. All easy to coach no matter your level.

It's like any work really, repetition develops muscle and brain memory. The trickier thing is to keep the repetition interesting and fun

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Ok. I'll keep this as brief as possible.

Basically I was thinking just now about our defence and how we largely seem to have a sweeper of sorts when the other defenders venture up the pitch. Then I got thinking about Lloris, and his role as sweeper keeper sometimes. And then I got to thinking about who instructs their actions...

And then I took it a step further.

So my question, which is probably multi-faceted is thus.

Let's crank it up a notch. How could you coach a world class player, such as Lionel Messi, to improve his game? Like, what can the attacking coaches at Barcelona actually tell him any more? Surely he's got to be one of the best, if not the best player the world has ever seen, period. So other than keeping him mentally on the case, and fit, how can you improve his play? Surely he is better than the coaches??

And let's filter that down...

So what happens when the players you have are better than the coaching staff you have?

For example, say one of our midfield coaches was Tim Sherwood. Used to play, obvs. Decent player. Say we still had Luka Modric. What on earth would Sherwood be able to coach him on?

Yes, they could work on control, touch, etc. But surely the, "right, in this situation, you really need to be doing this, here when the ball's here, don't do this etc etc." kinda stuff is a bit moot? As Modric is a far better player than Sherwood ever was.

This isn't a diss at Sherwood, as he was obviously doing decent work behind the scenes before he took over as manager, but it sprung to mind as being relatable.

So going back to the Messi example, like, other than just kinda telling him to keep doing what he's doing, keeping him good mentally, and generally keeping him fit and sharp, what the fuck can you tell the bloke?

Is anyone really gonna try to coach him on dribbling for example?!

Hope this question makes some kind of sense.

I guess in a nutshell, surely some coaches aren't/weren't as good as the players they're now coaching, so why should the players listen to coaches that weren't as good as they are. (Other than they're paid to, obviously. And also disregarding the coaching that got them to a good level in the first place.) Basically what happens when the players all round game becomes far superior to the coach's?

Like, who's telling Bale and Ronaldo how to improve etc? Sure, tell them what to do in terms of the formation and system etc, but beyond that, what is there?!
Unless they literally just become motivators???

I've probably missed something really obvious, or maybe I am overthinking it, but it's something I thought may prove a decent discussion.

If not, I'll just post up a gif or some fresh meme or something...

Playing and coaching are completely different skill sets. You don't have to have been a great player to coach great players and many of the greatest coaches weren't great players. You don't necessarily teach "skills" you teach them how and when to apply those skills, how to fit those skills into the collective, and you teach the group how to be cohesive tactically etc. Being a great coach is as much about being a great communicator, having an over arching ethos or tactical nouse and being able to communicate that, and getting players to not just understand it but buy into it. Imparting your ethos and mentality.

 

[tony_parkes]

Jose Mourinho was one hell of a player.........

Bobby Moore and Bobby Charlton were superb coaches....

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Ok. I'll keep this as brief as possible.
...

You didn't quite succeed.

 

[slartibartfast]

I'm reading Redknapps biography and he said after leaving spurs he surprisingly found he wasn't missing football as much as he thought he would and finally understood what Jim Smith meant when he'd asked him if he wanted to get back in. He said 'nah its all changed now, they've no heart. All egos. Would do my fkin head in dealing with people like that.'
I believe man management is now a bigger part of being successful more so than tactics, formation, team selection etc.
Look at Chelsea last season. Hazard is a fkin child. If he'd pulled that shit with us I wouldn't be singing his fkin name when he finally felt like getting his thumb out of his arse.
Us last 4 games end of season. Know some will blame burn out but imo we fkin downed tools. Best defence in league loses to 10man relegated team 5.1??? Yeah, ok.
Leicester this season.
Reading Redknapps time at QPR that squad was full of tossers.
So coaching world class players these days would imo be largely about keeping them motivated and on side more than practising technique.

 

[mill]

Are seriously asking if anyone on here knows anything about coaching world class players? Maybe in some posters dreams they'd actually know what they're talking about

 

[aliyid]

I always think it's quite funny that people assume a coach teaches players how to play. Maybe that's true for beginners but even from semi-pro onwards it's about building familiarity and trust with your teammates, making sure everybody knows the system and making sure that you're physically and mentally prepared for every scenario that will crop up in the match.