Adam Smith - Derby County

Discussion in 'Loanwatch' started by Spursidol, Jul 29, 2013.

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  1. Wardy

    Wardy Well-Known Member

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    Derby's style of football will surely change now that Maclaren is in charge?

    I heard so many good things about this lad when he was at MK Dons, hope he bring it through to our first team
     
  2. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    What has Juan Sebastian Veron got to do with anything?

    Incidentally, he was brilliant for 45 minutes against Tottenham at the Lane whilst representing Manchester United.

    If Smith is good enough for Tottenham, he should stand out at Derby - even if it is purely for the fact that he is surrounded by players who are not of the same quality as him.

    Does AVB really want attacking full backs?

    I am not so sure. Walker and Rose get in advanced positions but they don't do anything with it, certainly not as much as they should anyway. I would argue Naughton get's in just as many advanced positions, but is more considered in possession and actually delivers quite a large number of crosses and cross-field balls (they just aren't very good) without having to aimlessly run to the byline first.

    Also, I watched Naughton every other week whilst on loan with Middlesbrough a few years back and he was a very attack minded full back then. The problem he had was he was surrounded by absolute numpties with Gordon Strachan telling them what to do.
     
  3. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    Another club where he struggled to hold down a starting role despite us all hearing "so many good things".
     
  4. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    Well my biggest impression of him came away at Carlisle when he played 65 minutes at right back before swapping to left back for the remainder of the game.

    Bearing in mind this was against Carlisle, he was consistently caught out of position seemingly unsure as when to push forward and stay back. More concerning was his inability to simply retain possession, whilst his final ball also left a lot to be desired.

    Jonathon Obika came on and was even worse incidentally.
     
  5. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I've seen him about 8-10 full games I reckon. 2/3 for Spurs development teams, 6/7 for England and snippets of loan games.

    he was excellent for the development team against Barcelona. Have yet to see him have a bad game for an England team, and one of the games was outstanding and was awarded man of the match - quite a rarity I would imagine for an U21 RB.

    I think he does need to improve defensively, but he's not daft, so I believe he can. He has excellent technique, is composed on the ball and gets forward with purpose and tries to do something intelligent when he gets there.

    personally I think he'd be perfect for the system we are trying to play.


    I think just as it's dangerous to over hype young players, it's equally daft to write them off too quickly, based on loan spells in lower league teams, that might not play to that players strengths, or based on seeing them once or twice.

    If you look around the perm at the moment there is a real shortage of quality rb's, so I'd be amazed if the kid didn't end up earning a decent living, hopefully with us, but if not elsewhere.
     
  6. Spursidol

    Spursidol Well-Known Member

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    AVB's formation of choice used currently relies upon 'inverted wingers' , that is wingers who cut inside mainly (or in AVB's case almost completely to date). Width is provided by the attacking fullbacks (or wingbacks) which are the essential balance to AVB's inverted wingbacks. .

    Spurs currently have 2 attacking fullbacks - Walker and Rose whose role to provide width in attack requires them to run up and down the flanks - inevitably that means they can be caught upfield when an attack fails. It is therefore vital that the attacking fullbacks can run at speed - both to get up the field and thenm to try to get back.

    Naugthon does not have the speed to be an attacking fullback in AVB's system (although he would have been fine in HR's sysyem where speed was a bonus and not a pre-requisite). Smith has the speed and croissing ability to be a full back fitting AVB's model.

    Rose' absence and replacing him with Naughton (with AVB rigidly stickiung to his desired system) is one of the main causes of Spurs rather laboured performances of late with so muchg of the play channelled through the centre - caused by having only one fit speedy attacking full back rather than two..

    I hope its now clear that comparing 2 full backs like Naughton and Snith is like comparing 2 midfielders like Eriksen and Sanddro - Eriksen would struggle to dominate central midfield due to his physique whilst Sandro would struggle to make the sublime acurate passes of which Eriksen is capable of.

    Likewise Smith (and Walker and Rose) have the speed to play the wing back role required by AVB's formation whilst Naughton does not have that absolutely fundamental attribute , whilst Naughton's defensive ability is probably better than Smith's (but that's less important to a wing back)

    BTW I hope you now understand better the point I was making about Veron - a good player but did not suit either Chelea or ManU 's systems and therefore did not live up to expectation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
  7. Spursidol

    Spursidol Well-Known Member

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    At MK Dons Smith started 17 games in half a season, so a very constant starter.

    Incidentally he had 2 of his goals in the MK Dons 'Goal of the season;' competition - not bad for a RB who played half a season there.
     
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  8. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    Just because our wingers are inverted, when we are in possession they are still the ones expected to provide the width. Even more so when we play 5 in midfield like we do. Yes, when a winger tucks in or attacks centrally, a full back has the opportunity to fill that space.

    But the way we play, Soldado/Eriksen/Paulinho could easily fill that space too, therefore making that central area less congested. I would certainly rather those three attacking that space than our dumb fullbacks who have no end product.

    Too much emphasis is being placed upon attacking fullbacks, when our fullbacks were far more attacking under Harry than they are under AVB. If you use last season, both managers had the same set of full backs - who were the more attacking?
     
  9. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    I would definitely agree with regards to the quality of right full backs, I would probably extend your point to left backs aswell.

    I watch the England U21s only to check on the Spurs contingent, but to be quite frank I would be disappointed if our players didn't stand out because in general the standard of football is awful (England went through the last qualification process without conceding a single goal).

    We have been hyping him for probably four years now, yet he is no closer to the first team now than he was then.

    But most importantly, he is along way behind both Walker and Naughton in terms of quality and development.

    If we look at Smith's ability and career - compare that to what Walker and Naughton achieved at the same age. The differences are astronomical.
     
  10. Spursidol

    Spursidol Well-Known Member

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    Sorry that's not how AVB has the side set up - elsewhere I have suggested that the inverted wingers should both cut inside and go outside from time to time to vary the attack, but the latter is very rare in AVB's tactics.

    Hence the reliance on speedy attacking full backs.
     
  11. Spursidol

    Spursidol Well-Known Member

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    A lot of that has been poor loan management. After a good sesason in League 1 with Bournemouth who finished 4th in the playoffs, a loan to a Championship side would have been sensible, however he went to MK Dons where he had a good half season before being moved to Championsip Leeds. Unfortunately after about 4 games the manager changed - and the new one got rid of all the loanees (before finishing a lot lower in the division than when Smith left).

    Smith went to Millwall (Championship) and seemed a fixtue in the first half season, but not sio in the second half. Equally at Derby (Championship) this saeason seemed to be a fixture before being dropped to the bench after McLaren took over.

    So he's almost unique amongst Spurs loanees in having 'done' 2 League 1 seasons followed by 2 Championship seasons - yet he's clearly got talent which Spurs recognised by giving him a new 3 year contract earlier this year. Unfortunately we have not succeeded in working out him to give the experience needed.
     
  12. SlickMongoose

    SlickMongoose Copacetic

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    If Derby aren't going to play him i'm sure we could use him in cup games.
     
  13. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I would say part of the problem is that he has had Walker ahead of him for the last 3, no matter what my opinion is, Walker is clear first choice (and rightly at this stage) but if Walker hadn't emerged I'm pretty sure Smith would be knocking on the door or playing a lot more games for us by now. He is a better footballer than Naughton, maybe not as sturdy defensively though.

    He reminds a little of Steve Carr.
     
  14. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    Our wingers create width first and foremost, are you seriously arguing against this?
     
  15. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    I have seen a lot of Naughton as a right back and I have to disagree entirely.

    He has consistently performed well there at Championship and Premier League level.

    I just wish AVB would use him as a right back, last night being the perfect opportunity.
     
  16. JUSTINSIGNAL

    JUSTINSIGNAL Well-Known Member

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    In a 4-2-3-1 there on no wingers just attacking midfielders with responsibility for a certain area of the pitch but with freedom to move inside and create. It is the full backs responsibility to keep width in this formation.
     
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  17. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    So we are playing with five central midfielders?

    No, we are not.

    Lennon and Townsend were selected to provide width at the weekend, not Walker and Verthonghen
     
  18. JUSTINSIGNAL

    JUSTINSIGNAL Well-Known Member

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    No. We are playing 2 central midfielders and 3 attacking midfielders.
     
  19. Spursidol

    Spursidol Well-Known Member

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    The term 'inveted wingers' as currently used by AVB/Spurs means that they cut inside.

    Suggest you re-read some past match threads - particularly the West Ham one where it was painfully obvious that all attacks were going through the centre against a 460 side because with Rose (attacking LB) and Walker (pulled up sick before the match but continued at less than full steam at RB) there was almost no width - the only width coming from Townsend abandoining his usual right inverted winger role (whether condined by AVB was unclear) to adopt an orthodiox winger role of going outside his man to provide width.

    IF I met AVB I would ask him if he wants to continue with inverted wingers to (a) give them instructions to vary things by both cutting inside as werll as outside from time to time (provinging width and being less predicatable), for the inverted wingers to change sides from time to time (again to be less predictable to the opposition) or indeed for the front 3 attascking midfielders to change around.

    BTW MiinMan - when everyone in this thread is telling you that width in AVB's system is being provided by the full backs and not the wingers, why are you surprised ?
     
  20. Main Man

    Main Man Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest that you are all Football Manager fanatics at best and have never played football in your life.

    It is down to Townsend and Lennon to provide the width, whether they are doing that or not is a different argument entirely.

    You all also keep bleating on about attacking with the ball down the centre. How often do Andros and Lennon collect the ball centrally as opposed to out wide?? The answer is vary rarely because to keep our shape they hug the touchline and then when we have the ball they can cut in as much as they like - that is when it is down to others to exploit the void they have left.

    For anyone to disagree with what I am saying I can only assume has very little experience of playing football.
     
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