What's new

Are they uncoachable?

justfookinhitit

Jedi Master
Aug 4, 2006
1,206
0
Funny thing is that I think on the whole we are defending set pieces a bit better now than we were before he took over.

We are also more threatening when we have a set piece near the opposition penalty area. At the beginning of the season we were pants, and now we do tend to look like we have half a clue of what to do. Might help that Bale is showing the rest of the squad how to fire a free kick into a dangerous area.
 

inegve

New Member
Dec 6, 2006
229
0
About the long balls, this can go away pretty easy.It only takes one guy to tell Robbo where the real goal line is, cause he seems to have the idea that the goal line is couple of meters away from the real one.He's reducing his reaction time.Like the second goal Fulham scored against us.The deflected ball went in, cause he wasn't in his place.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
Our DOF? :grin:

:) Not necessarily. Whoever determines what our transfer policy is. If that's our DOF, then him. If Levy, then him. And I don't mean getting rid of anyone, just that transfer policy may need review. It boils down to the fact that if something isn't working, you repair or replace it.

Bear in mind, this is based on the assumption that if the manager isn't at fault for our poor defence, and the coaching isn't at fault, then it must be the players. And if our transfer policy doesn't bring in players that don't address very obvious problems, then the policy needs review.
 

stemark44

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2005
6,598
1,829
Ferguson is arguably the least tactical manager in the Prem. Also he didn't win the title until he took himself off the training ground and brought in Brian Kidd. With Fergie doing the coaching Utd went from 2nd to finishing 11th and 14th. Fergie is superb at team building and the psycological side of the game. Look at Arsenal, the least tactical side in the Prem is sat top of the pile. Wenger isn't exactly a coach known for his tactical football. He is very much part of the Brian Clough and ALex Ferguson school of football. There are far more important things to developing a winning side than tactics. Chlesea are the only tactical team in the history of the Prem to have won it and they spent a fortune on players to do so. But that's all irrelevant anyway, as we are talking set peice defending and at this level, there really is only so much you can do on the training ground and it's pretty basic stuff.

Good managers need very good players to have prolonged success.These players must have ability,technique,composure,desire and intelligence.Coaching does'nt really make much difference unless it is for developing youngsters at a very young age.
 

tooey

60% banana
Apr 22, 2005
5,228
7,948
They are professional players of course they can be coached. Plus ramos has been in charge for what a month and a bit?!
 

Dannyspur

I just don't know anymore!
Aug 17, 2004
10,127
13,799
Some of the players may be plain dumb - some things seem to stay the same - like Jermain Defoe's inability to look along the line of defenders and stay onside! (although he did manage to do that today for 10 minutes!!!!
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,090
They are professional players of course they can be coached. Plus ramos has been in charge for what a month and a bit?!

But look at the goals we are conceding, very few of them are things that can be changed on the training ground. Don't you think that Ramos practices set pieces everyday? I bet he does, I bet Jol did and I bet every coach that every player in our squad as ever had, has done the same. They aren't being asked to do anything difficult. It's the same with closing down on the edge of the box, or tracking midfield runners. In the last 5 games we've conceded 9 goals and not one of them was down to poor coaching. They were all basic errors that should be part of every players basic game.

I assure you that Ramos asks his players to close down quickly on the edge of the box, yet no matter how much he talks about it, if they have naturally slow brains and don't read the situations quick enough there just isn't much the coach can do. Look at the long shot from Larsson and watch Zokora not move, it's the same with the shot from the Aalborg player. Look at the goal we conceded against West Ham. What can Ramos do, to stop Kaboul whacking the ball against an opposition player? And surely, at this level, it isn't upto Ramos to tell Zokora he needs to track Solano all the way until he no longer has the ball. Going back to the Birmingham game, what can Ramos do to prevent Dawson and Zokora making rubbish tackles on Jerome? Does he also have to tell Kaboul not to make clumsy tackles in the penalty area? Or as against Anderlecht, tells Dawson that when the ball is in the penalty area and you have the chance to clear it, you fucking well do so? We simply aren't conceding goals because of a lack of good coaching. We concede goals because of the players we have and until that changes it will continue to be the case. We haven't even played any decent attacking sides yet. The next couple of games aren't going to be pretty. If we were being opened up by teams and giving away many chances, I'd say fair enough, this is a mess that needs sorting out on the training ground, but it isn't. I don't know the current stats, but up until a month ago, we had given away the 5th lowest amount of chances in the Prem.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Ferguson is arguably the least tactical manager in the Prem. Also he didn't win the title until he took himself off the training ground and brought in Brian Kidd. With Fergie doing the coaching Utd went from 2nd to finishing 11th and 14th. Fergie is superb at team building and the psycological side of the game. Look at Arsenal, the least tactical side in the Prem is sat top of the pile. Wenger isn't exactly a coach known for his tactical football. He is very much part of the Brian Clough and ALex Ferguson school of football. There are far more important things to developing a winning side than tactics. Chlesea are the only tactical team in the history of the Prem to have won it and they spent a fortune on players to do so. But that's all irrelevant anyway, as we are talking set peice defending and at this level, there really is only so much you can do on the training ground and it's pretty basic stuff.


You've kind of made the original posters point. And I agree with the thread too. It comes down to intelligence, or, at least football intelligence (not always mutual). It is why dawson will never make the grade. Endevour yes. Effort yes. But he will never read the game always react to it, and fairly slowly at that.

What Ferguson and Wenger do is find, instinctive, talented, intelligent players and work on the "team ethic" side of their game. So you get Rooney and Tevez who are skillfull but graft their nuts off. I think Ramos pretty much did the same (in terms of teamwork) at Sevilla. But he will need to replace a few and work hard on others like Lennon (& all strikers etc) who needs to work as hard as Malbranque off the ball.
 

Kurtzen

New Member
Jan 13, 2006
822
0
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=23878

Lacking in creativity is symptomatic of an overarching lack of footballing brain across our midfield. Poor vision defensively and offensively. Conceding the multitude of goals we do from distance(apart from Robinson's poor footwork/preparation) reflects not just an inability to close down, but more importantly an inability to read the play as it's building.

Most of the current 'prospects', with the exception of Zokora, appear unable to canvas ambiguity? Zonal defence does not mean your responsibility stops on the imaginary line. Our shame at set pieces only magnifies this.

To claim an improvement? I imagine that BMJ/Hughton laboured long and hard at resolving these long standing issues. However, running up against a brickwall in the form of how limited the players are in terms of processing information and applying it gauranteed that the harder they tried the more shambolic (confused?) the situation became. No wonder there has been a tide of comments attributing Ramos' improvement to 'simple instructions'.

Unfortunately I doubt 'simple' is a satisfactory resolution. How easily people overlook our atrocious away record of the past two years. Pressed, we resort to Wimbeldon FC. Pressed, our midfield dissolves into confusion. Solution? Realise we are hamstrung by the current pretenders. Hire a psychologist to do the scouting/recruitment, look for some brains before the illusion of finesse?

Start looking at what the clowns do when they don't have the ball....and whatever you do don't ask them to think. Ughh.
 

TheBigMatch

New Member
Sep 12, 2005
820
0
We have to many players that need to be guided through a game. Dawson alongside King can be immense but on his own he doesn't appear to have the football brain to do the right thing.

It reminds me of Phil Babb playing for Ireland. When Paul McGrath was there leading the defense Babb looked a brilliant defender even against top class world cup teams. Once McGrath left Babb was lost.

The coaching staff can direct the players during training and everything will look perfect. At a match they have to stay close to the bench... too far away to guide those in need through a match.

With or without King returning we still need that bit of guidance bought in during January.
 

leetotty

Member
Mar 14, 2005
190
17
There are three sorts of coaching that can be done to improve a footballer.
1. Football skills coaching
2. Fitness coaching
3. Mental attitude coaching

Quality of player is 1 and players can improve on the technical elements of the game.

Anyone can have 2,

But 3 is the difference, Tevez and Rooney are fit and good footballers but the willingness to win, succeed, show composure makes them so much better than most of our players.

I am not sure about the judgements made by Comolli/Arnesen at spotting the potential of someone young to have a a good mental attitude.

When Manu buy Evra we buy BAE, and he doesn't strike me as someone who has a good mental attitude.

Does Huddlestone/Lennon really have the desire to succeed to be the best players in their positions....

Does berbatov have a winning mentality, is he strong enough as a charcater to battle through loss of form patches.

Are our players gutted when they lose and when it comes to the next day at training they try and put things right?

As fans its difficult to see, but at Manu there squad breeds that and ferguson drives that forward.

Hoepfully Ramos does too...
 

tooey

60% banana
Apr 22, 2005
5,228
7,948
There are three sorts of coaching that can be done to improve a footballer.
1. Football skills coaching
2. Fitness coaching
3. Mental attitude coaching


Quality of player is 1 and players can improve on the technical elements of the game.

Anyone can have 2,

But 3 is the difference, Tevez and Rooney are fit and good footballers but the willingness to win, succeed, show composure makes them so much better than most of our players.

I am not sure about the judgements made by Comolli/Arnesen at spotting the potential of someone young to have a a good mental attitude.

When Manu buy Evra we buy BAE, and he doesn't strike me as someone who has a good mental attitude.

Does Huddlestone/Lennon really have the desire to succeed to be the best players in their positions....

Does berbatov have a winning mentality, is he strong enough as a charcater to battle through loss of form patches.

Are our players gutted when they lose and when it comes to the next day at training they try and put things right?

As fans its difficult to see, but at Manu there squad breeds that and ferguson drives that forward.

Hoepfully Ramos does too...


Thats footy manager talk my friend....
 

Juande_Ramos

New Member
Oct 26, 2007
181
0
There are three sorts of coaching that can be done to improve a footballer.
1. Football skills coaching
2. Fitness coaching
3. Mental attitude coaching

Quality of player is 1 and players can improve on the technical elements of the game.

Anyone can have 2,

But 3 is the difference, Tevez and Rooney are fit and good footballers but the willingness to win, succeed, show composure makes them so much better than most of our players.

I am not sure about the judgements made by Comolli/Arnesen at spotting the potential of someone young to have a a good mental attitude.

When Manu buy Evra we buy BAE, and he doesn't strike me as someone who has a good mental attitude.

Does Huddlestone/Lennon really have the desire to succeed to be the best players in their positions....

Does berbatov have a winning mentality, is he strong enough as a charcater to battle through loss of form patches.

Are our players gutted when they lose and when it comes to the next day at training they try and put things right?

As fans its difficult to see, but at Manu there squad breeds that and ferguson drives that forward.

Hoepfully Ramos does too...

I agree with what you said. Just a question aren't/weren't Manchester United interested in signing Berbatov?
 

Juande_Ramos

New Member
Oct 26, 2007
181
0
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=23878

Lacking in creativity is symptomatic of an overarching lack of footballing brain across our midfield. Poor vision defensively and offensively. Conceding the multitude of goals we do from distance(apart from Robinson's poor footwork/preparation) reflects not just an inability to close down, but more importantly an inability to read the play as it's building.

Most of the current 'prospects', with the exception of Zokora, appear unable to canvas ambiguity? Zonal defence does not mean your responsibility stops on the imaginary line. Our shame at set pieces only magnifies this.

To claim an improvement? I imagine that BMJ/Hughton laboured long and hard at resolving these long standing issues. However, running up against a brickwall in the form of how limited the players are in terms of processing information and applying it gauranteed that the harder they tried the more shambolic (confused?) the situation became. No wonder there has been a tide of comments attributing Ramos' improvement to 'simple instructions'.

Unfortunately I doubt 'simple' is a satisfactory resolution. How easily people overlook our atrocious away record of the past two years. Pressed, we resort to Wimbeldon FC. Pressed, our midfield dissolves into confusion. Solution? Realise we are hamstrung by the current pretenders. Hire a psychologist to do the scouting/recruitment, look for some brains before the illusion of finesse?

Start looking at what the clowns do when they don't have the ball....and whatever you do don't ask them to think. Ughh.

Of course there is a limit to how much you can coach a player, but some managers are better at getting the best out of their players, or just getting the best out of certain type of players.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
But look at the goals we are conceding, very few of them are things that can be changed on the training ground. Don't you think that Ramos practices set pieces everyday? I bet he does, I bet Jol did and I bet every coach that every player in our squad as ever had, has done the same. They aren't being asked to do anything difficult. It's the same with closing down on the edge of the box, or tracking midfield runners. In the last 5 games we've conceded 9 goals and not one of them was down to poor coaching. They were all basic errors that should be part of every players basic game.

I assure you that Ramos asks his players to close down quickly on the edge of the box, yet no matter how much he talks about it, if they have naturally slow brains and don't read the situations quick enough there just isn't much the coach can do. Look at the long shot from Larsson and watch Zokora not move, it's the same with the shot from the Aalborg player. Look at the goal we conceded against West Ham. What can Ramos do, to stop Kaboul whacking the ball against an opposition player? And surely, at this level, it isn't upto Ramos to tell Zokora he needs to track Solano all the way until he no longer has the ball. Going back to the Birmingham game, what can Ramos do to prevent Dawson and Zokora making rubbish tackles on Jerome? Does he also have to tell Kaboul not to make clumsy tackles in the penalty area? Or as against Anderlecht, tells Dawson that when the ball is in the penalty area and you have the chance to clear it, you fucking well do so? We simply aren't conceding goals because of a lack of good coaching. We concede goals because of the players we have and until that changes it will continue to be the case. We haven't even played any decent attacking sides yet. The next couple of games aren't going to be pretty. If we were being opened up by teams and giving away many chances, I'd say fair enough, this is a mess that needs sorting out on the training ground, but it isn't. I don't know the current stats, but up until a month ago, we had given away the 5th lowest amount of chances in the Prem.

You know, joey, when you actually spell things out, it casts light on what should be patently obvious. I like this argument. It explains a hell of a lot about our weaknesses.

However, I do believe a player's mental abilities can be developed a little. But for us, I think it's difficult because we have a relatively young squad, with only one or two players that could be called veterans. But that's where mental sharpness is developed - by putting seasoned players in with the youngsters, who then learn about the less physical aspects of a game. Just as an example, if a young defender is put up against Berbatov with all his trickery, he will soon learn to increase his speed of thought and reaction, and will become a better defender because of it. But put a young defender up against an unseasoned striker, then he won't learn much apart from the very basics.

The other problem I feel we have is the lack of an effective leader on the pitch. We need a proper captain who represents the manager on the pitch. And, much as I love him, Keane is not the man for that. Purely because of his position, not because he doesn't have the mental capability to be a leader. It's just that I feel he can't concentrate on what's going on behind him while at the same time looking for opportunities to get forward.

I've always believed that defenders make the best captains, because they can watch the game unfolding, while also keeping an eye on every outfield player.

I'm sorry to drag on, but although I agree that perhaps we don't have very many decent footballing brains out on the pitch, with a leader who can be effective, the mental deficiencies may not be quite as debilitating as they are currently.

Forgive the horrendous lecture-type quote, but Daniel Defoe (I think) once wrote:

[SIZE=-1]"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, then an army of lions led by a sheep"[/SIZE]

I agree with joey that we need players with better mental abilities. But that I think will only come in the long-term. In the short-term, we need a lion to lead our bunch of sheep.
 
Top