Are we giving AVB a hard time?

Discussion in 'Columns' started by Boaksey21, Nov 18, 2012.

  • by Boaksey21, Nov 18, 2012 at 7:26 AM
  • Boaksey21

    Boaksey21 Member

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    I have to admit AVB has been really hard done by since he arrived at spurs. He has been screwed over in the transfer window by Levy, he has had every paper report unrest, out of his depth ect, he has been plagued by injuries, lack of players fitness ect. We could discuss the above all day long and each spurs fan will have his own opinion, but lets look at the facts and results how is he doing compared to exactly the same results last year.

    As you will see below we are only 2 points down on exactly the same results last season so given everything the poor guy has been through we are only slighty worse off than last year. Yes i know the football has not been free flowing and we are on a 4 game losing streak but I am one that feels that AVB should be given a season and 2 more transfers windows before I start calling for his head!

    2011-2012 Results v 2012-2013 Results points difference

    Newcastle A drew 2-2 v Newcastle A lost 2-1 -1
    Norwich H lost 2-1 v norwich H drew 1-1 +1
    WBA H won 1-0 v WBA drew 1-1 -2
    Man City A lost 3-2 v Man C A lost 4-2 0
    Aston v H won 2-0 v Aston Villa H won 2-0 0
    relegated side A won 2-1 v southampton A won 2-1 0
    Wigan H won 3-1 v wigan H lost 1-0 -2
    Chelsea H drew 1-1 v chelsea lost 4-2 -1
    QPR H won 3-1 v QPR H won 2-1 0
    Man U A Lost 3-0 v Man U A won 3-2 +3
    Arsenal A lost 5-2 v Arsenal A lost 5-2 0
    relagated side A won 2-1 v Reading A won 3-1 0
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Discussion in 'Columns' started by Boaksey21, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. onthetwo
    Hes certainly not cuddly Uncle Arry which i think makes it hard for him in the eyes of the media, and i think thats taking everyone some time to get used to. Apart from that, lets not forget that we're in the early stages of of a major transition at the club with new training ground, new ground on the way, and basically half a new team (Lloris, Naughton, Jan, Ade, Siggy, Dempsey, Dembele) having lost most of the spine of the previous team and probably 3 of our 4 best players from last year (albeit that Ledders was on his way in the back half of last season). So to quote Monty Python, hes not the messiah, and to quote Gary Barlow (sorry), lets have a little patience. IF Levy invests in the squad, more likely in the summer than in Jan as the prices are usually more reasonable, i think we could be right back up there next season so lets not lose sight of the fact that this year was always going to be a transition year, despite the stated ambition of the club to be in the Top 4 again. IMO, if we dont get a few players out of the Treatment room and spend some real money in Jan, its never going to happen and anyone who thinks otherwise is dillusional.
    • Agree Agree x 7
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  2. Lucky22
    onthetwo I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Yesterday's result doesn't reflect the performance and we can take some positives from the game. Lloris didn't shame himself and Verts is so, so, so much better at CB (although I rather see him beside Caulker). Defoe and Ade can form an awesome partnership and Sandro is a beast. All that and we have a superb never say die attitude. We played 70-plus minutes we 10 men and still had 44% of the possession and before Ade was sent off there was only one team in it.
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  3. big_bear_jol
    I couldn't watch the game yesterday due to unforeseen circumstances. However I was hoping that one of the positives might have been tommy Carroll. If so does anyone recon he could be dembele's regular deputy.
  4. Locotoro
    I've been looking for a match by match comparison for a while now but been too lazy to do it myself. Its obvious that in terms of results we are on par with last season although the performances haven't been what we're used to.with time and new players the performances will improve and will further reflect on results. I think the proof is there to suggest we could do better than Redknapp's team under the right conditions.

    Re: Carroll - he definitely did himself no disservice in is cameo yesterday. I thought his inclusion instantly made us look more fluid and rapid in our attack.

    Huddlestone has a habit of slowing the ball down when he gets is a hitting a man long which is great if the 2 wide men are playing as forwards with support but as Lennon and Bale are not playing as forwards they often get ahead of the play (usually when Ade isn't playing). With Carroll he is always looking for the ball to feet and to play in between defenders and even at his age provides a more dynamic option in my age. Whether he is as defensively sound is another matter.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. GetSpurredOn
    Ultimately, and it's a a huge overreaction to think like this, but to play devils advocate, if we were to conceede defeat, who out there is better? Allowing for pay off's of current staff and incoming contract pay off's too, would be an expensive move, not to mention highly disruptive. Plus, after such a short spell, it would send out all the wrong signals, that the board does not fully back their manager.

    For what it's worth, I actually think AVB is the right man for the job. I was under the impression his appointment was one for the longer term. His back room staff generally have a background in youth football, and what with the new training facility now up and running too, I thought the remit was to steady the ship and put the systems in place to build lasting foundations. On that basis, whilst the results are not going our way of late, we have seen breakthrough season's for Caulker, and it appears Carroll is starting to emerge andante Falque too.
    Having lost so many key performers from last year, King retired, Modric and VDV sold, Parker and Adebayor been missing most of this season too, it was always going to be a tough task to replace them and recreate the understanding and fluidity so quick. AVB was not helped with such a poor transfer window (again).
    >We've bought a top class (young) keeper in, one who can be our mainstay for ten years, but damaged his confidence by not picking him.
    >We've gone into the season with only one recognised left back, who then got injured straight away, meaning due to a lack of depth, we have had to consistently play players out of position, causing an obvious weakness. Incidentally, Ekotto is rumoured to be nearing fitness, but will then be off to the ACN. Rose being loaned out was a strange move.
    >I'm less bothered by the failure to sign Moutinho, as I feel we have players more than capable, but have yet. He would have technically been an upgrade, but I feel there were other issues that were more important. As AVB's onfield lieutenant he would have been a plus, someone to dictate the tempo, and I think we have missed a trick there, but I feel when at full strength our CM is pretty strong anyway. Positive that Carroll is emerging due to this issue though, he shows promise as a player with both mobility and technique to keep the tempo up.
    >We still have not addressed the lack of depth out wide. If either Lennon or Bale are absent, we seem to struggle to recreate that width. Townsend has been used a bit, but after one bad performance (away at Maribor) he seems to have dropped down the pecking order. Falque has emerged a bit recently, but we should have, if possible, got a natural replacement/competition for the flanks. Dos Santos, Kranjcar were sold, Bentley loaned, so we are weaker in terms of numbers.
    >Striker was our biggest failing. Defoe has scored goals, but he is a bit too one dimensional to play the lone striker role, always defaults to his instinct of drag and shoot, doesn't look at what else is on first. Sigurdsson was signed to recreate his form as an AM at Swansea, but he did that playing off a target man (Graham) creating holes for him, he will not get that service off Defoe. Dempsey was effective for Fulham coming from deeper too Adebayor was eventually signed, but due to fitness issues barely featured, meaning our lack if other options has haunted us. If you look at the stats for a lot of our games, possession and shots have been high, but we are not clinical enough. No point having a midfield playmaker if we are not going to convert the chances created. Ade will be off to ACN soon, so we will be in trouble again.

    Reality is, AVB does not have the squad Harry did, so pointless to keep comparing. Until AVB is given the right tools for the job, it is always going to be a struggle. When he has the level of talent required available to him, then we will see what he can achieve.

    The day we can field
    Lloris, Walker, Kaboul, Vertonghen, Ekotto, Parker, Sandro, Dembele, Lennon, Bale, Adebayor
    then I feel we will be able to take the game to any team in front of us. January we need to address the lack of depth, as waiting till summer may just be too late. Levy may decide to back AVB and save the cash till the lower summer prices whilst assuring him he's safe, but by then will a poor season cause some of our better players to become unsettled, and also put off future targets.
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  6. greaves
    I like this positive post. It puts things in perspective which is important to all of us (myself included). I am nitpicking but in an ideal world (!) I would want us to have strong alternatives to Walker and BAE. I am not fully convinced by either - but I am excited by the potential of Carroll. How did Lloris do?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. gloryglory
    I just don't understand how we could sell not only Modric but Van der Vaart, Kranjcjar and Pienaar all in the same window. And we were willing to let Huddlestone go as well! Now, surprise surprise, we have no creativity when Dembele doesn't play.

    I don't blame Levy for failing to get Moutinho - you have to set an upper limit on what you'll pay. We clearly tried hard. But he was the one. Without him we should never have let VdV go. It isn't just hindsight that Sigurdsson and Dempsey aren't replacements, a lot of us were saying it at the time.

    Levy isn't too stingy - we spent plenty of money and bought some excellent players considering we missed out on CL in Vertonghen, Demble, Lloris and Adebayor. But without anyone to knit things together, and esp with injuries to Kaboul BAE and Parker, the squad is still too thin, and I blame AVB to the extent that he doesn't seem to have pursued more strikers or full backs and was willing to let our creative midfielders go.

    On the whole we have played more or less as I've expected, if anything there have been slightly more positives than I saw coming, but we won't come 4th, Bale won't stay and there won't be more CL football at the Lane in the next 5 years.
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  8. avonspurs
    I think that some, and I must include myself in this, have been disappointed with the way we have played in most of the games.

    However, for me I see a new manager, a young manager (sh*t he's younger than me!!!), being new(ish) to this league and coming to us after having an awful time at Chelscum and being let down there by his players and his chairman. A manager who lost his two world class players to other clubs. A manager who has had half of his first team missing for most of this season (we know who they are so no need to list them).

    A manager who has had more pressure heaped on him, predominantly due to the 'success' of the previous manager, than any other manager I can remember: pressure not only from a section of fans who won't forgive him for taking over from Harry (as if AVB had been touting for the job when Harry was still in it), to the media who have, at every available opportunity, run negative stories. In regards to the latter, as I have said previously, I dont believe in conspiracy stories and don't believe that it is a Harry-loving media doing this, but show me the same level of anti-Rodger's stories being run. It even feels (may not be accurate but feels it to me) that until the last couple of weeks, AVB even got more negative stories run about him than Mark Hughes FFS.

    He is no super-manager. But he is no idiot either. People who don't like him can't dismiss his success in the Portugese league as if it counts for nothing.

    Do I think he can be more 'successful' than Harry? Yes - Harry got us two CL spots (and he needs to be rightfully lauded for that) but he also managed us when we imploded twice and we also didn't win any competitions with him. I also, and again this is just my perception, never felt Harry was trying to build something; it was all about the here and now. I suppose this coincides with how a lot of fans are reacting against AVB now - there is no patience in football anymore. Personally I disagree with this. I want AVB to be our own Ferguson and, dare I say it, our own Wenger.

    Does he need to change things? Yes. He needs to be more flexible with his system, be more imaginative with his substitutions. He was both yesterday (even though we lost 5-2). He needs to do it more often.

    However, do I think because we're 8th in the league and not playing the free-flowing football that characterised Harry's time with us, that he should go? No. The latter can come - trust me, i wont be happy if after more time and having more of our players back, we arent playing more attractive football. And I will voice that.

    Are some fans being too harsh on him? I think yes. Do I think this thread will became another vitriolic, slanging match between those 'for' and those 'against'? I hope not, but believe it might :(. Have I rambled on for long enough? I think we can agree yes. Hope you're all having a great Sunday :).
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  9. Gaz_Gammon
    Levy had the funds at his disposal to get this player, so let's end the "if only" paranoia that Moutinho would be the savior that is Spurs answer to the current poor performances.

    Some are saying that we lost two "World Class" players in Modric and VDV. We in fact lost one, and also an aging, slow journeyman who couldn't make a start at RM as good as he was for us. Levy i think saw a great return on the original outlay and i for one do not blame him for the sale.

    The current league tabel shows us in eighth spot with (i think) the worst goal difference in the top thirteen (-1). This is the real issue and in my inexperienced opinion is as a result of tactics by the manager. Bloody obvious that our best football has been played when we have two out and out center forwards in a 4-4-2. I am not saying that AVB should be playing 4-4-2 and 4-4-2only, but i have seen little if any improvement in playing any other way this season.

    Injuries have "robbed" us of the best starting eleven and therein lies our problem?. Well who would we take off the likes of Norwich, Wigan, WBA, who would be better than what we already have. Will Parker be the decisive midfielder we are missing, or Kabul that rock to shore up the back lime?. Verts plays left back for his country and we have adequate cover in that area plus Naughton. Bennie will be an automatic start when fit so Gallas will or should be the backup. When Kabul returns then it's anybody's guess what AVB will do.

    As far as AVB is concerned i do feel that if West Ham, Everton, West Brom and likely Fulham after today are above us then either this team is not capable of responding to what AVB wants or that AVB cannot make the difference to this squad and make his system fit. I was informed in countless threads on here about his tactics, teams set up and so called high line of pressing the opposition into mistakes that would become folklore. I have seen this attempted in the U.S. during the pre-season and at Newcastle. I have not seen this since. What i have seen since the Newcastle game is the desire to score and then sit back, invite pressure and hope to hold out. A shit way to hopefully win games and influence fans.

    I have also read on SC about a "transition period" that has not been explained on here by anyone. The need to establish the AVB way of playing and that he cannot do this without sweeping changes in personnel. He sanctioned all players that were brought into the Club prior to him coming on board and did indeed state that he presented his ideas and team philosophy to Levy before being offered the Managers job. I don't believe for one minute that he would have taken Verts, Dempsey, and Dembele and Lloris had he wanted other options. The Modric money was enough to get Moutinho but it appears Levy wanted second best so nothing new in that one and previous Managers Jol and Redknapp were in similar positions come the season kick off in years gone past.

    Finally i do worry when we get solidly beaten and AVB states that we were the better team throughout (like yesterday). I heard this from him post match at Chel$ea many a time and he has started saying this post match at Spurs. Time i guess will tell and he deserves a season to show some kind of improvement. Irrespective of injuries we should all expect to see signs of change and improvement but can anyone honestly say that we have, in any way shape or form for any prolonged period in any of the games this season.

    Mark Hughes brought in nine new players (i think i am correct on this) and so far has drawn a blank in the winning column. How many more players will AVB need to bring in just to get us back to the heights of the last four seasons success?
    • Like Like x 2
  10. JoeT
    Before assessing AVB's performance, there should be truthful answers to why certain pre-season player trades were not made.....mainly why we did not sign Moutinho?
    This player might have been the nearest we would have got to replacing Luka Modric; AVB repeatedly stated how much signing Moutinho would have meant to the team...yet we didn't get him.At one time it looked like a sure thing; when we received payment of Modric from Real Madrid it would be used to procure this player right away. Why this didn't happen I can only speculate on.
    To my understanding, Daniel Levy, in trying to squeeze an extra 5-6 million out of R.M. lost his window of oppourtunity. When he did finally receive his asking price of 33 mill.b.p's another month had gone by and Moutinho had decided he didn't want to come to Spurs.
    Therefore I blame Levy, not AVB, for valuing monitary profit before investing in his football team, and in addition seriously weakening his Manager's chance of success before the season had even begun.
    AVB is not totally blameless as to why Spurs have lost games this season. Sure we have had injuries and have had to fill gaps, but I, like many on here really question some of his selections....for example does William Gallas deserve to be constantly included in our starting line-up? Why can't Caulker and Vertongen start as our two C.B's and Naughton be kept with some game guidance from Vertongen. (Just tell Lloris not to throw a ball to him!)
    Other criticisms such as the ineffectiveness of trying to preserve a single-goal lead with defensive substitutions also come to mind, and maybe AVB will have to deal with this....and please learn quickly! As Boaksey's article pointed out, we are by no means out of the race.
  11. avonspurs
    Interesting what you say about Moutinho. I'm no ITK but I always thought he wanted to come to us, even up to the last minute, but it was third parties that caused the problem. I'm only going by Internet gossip though. I think having him, as well as a fit Dembele (after the start he's made with us) and having Kaboul back - all that would make a world of difference.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Sweetsman
    This thread is an island of sanity. I have no problem with what he said about controlling the game. He's just protecting his team and the press can go stuff themselves. Apparently, it was an insult to their intelligence. What intelligence? They haven't complained about the crap they readily eat when served up by Ferguson and Wenger.
    • Like Like x 1
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  13. jolsnogross
    It's quite clear that AVB has under-performed to date, and even his most ardent defenders do not make a case that he's doing well. They look for excuses/reasons as to why he hasn't lived up to the billing he got when he was hired and during pre-season. We've gone from 'modern, young, forward-thinking manager who'll have us playing fantasy-tactics attacking football' to 'he's only doing slightly worse than Harry's team in last season's corresponding fixtures!'

    I find the argument that transfers hold the key to AVB's "success" to be ridiculous. As I've said before, if he's a manager that needs 25 million pound players to make us perform, then he's definitely the wrong man for the job. Spurs do not partake in that upper level of transfer fee and wages and that's fine with me. We still do plenty of expensive business to keep the squad's quality high - Dembele was a quality, pricey but good-value signing for a creative midfielder. I'm not remotely convinced by this clamour for Moutinho as the key to our poor performances. It would have been a risk and a poor trade off to use all the Modric money on him. Aside from any particular player, it's up to the manager to make the whole better than the sum of its parts to play entertaining football and compete for the top four. I also think it was his decision to let VdV leave and I reckon that was a mistake. I can understand the reason for letting him go, but he was our equivalent of Cazorla/Mata/Silva and I think it was a mistake to let him leave.

    But I do cut AVB some slack on injuries. There are always injuries taking key players out for certain spells, but not usually several at the same time.

    I think his comments about yesterday's game invite ridicule and they were so absurd that he deserves it. He's either lying for some reason or he's deluded. And that's a real shame, because he should get plenty of credit for his starting line up and his changes at half time. We were far too soft conceding three goals before half time, but at least he didn't send out a damage limitation excercise for the second half.

    So, I still consider myself on the fence over AVB. If he'd continued with his pre-Maribor approaches to trying to not lose games, then I might well have tipped deep into the anti-AVB side (I realize his ardent supporters probably think I'm already there). The salient question when considering sacking anyone is who would we replace him with. I can think of a couple at least, but I don't think we're at the point in AVB's tenure yet where we need to ask. I'd rather we weren't in this semi-permanent state of 'transition', which is yet another excuse for under-performance - we could simply have evolved with the previous management and team (that had not ended its cycle) than devolved into yet more 'transition'.

    But I'm not too concerned at our league position yet and there's a glimmer of hope that he's going to have a crack at attacking footy, and the next few games will tell if he's grasped that leaf. If not, it'll be a tough few months because the tentative approach is not only boring to watch, it's not working.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Deeyal
    for the record i meant to hit like, not dislike. How do you change rating ?? Bloody phone!
  15. UbeAstard
    Good post jolsnogross and along with Gaz's comments on the inury prone VDV ''..We in fact lost one, and also an aging, slow journeyman who couldn't make a start at RM as good as he was for us.'' I whole heartedly agree.
  16. kungfugrip
    >We've gone into the season with only one recognised left back, who then got injured straight away, meaning due to a lack of depth, we have had to consistently play players out of position, causing an obvious weakness. Incidentally, Ekotto is rumoured to be nearing fitness, but will then be off to the ACN. Rose being loaned out was a strange move.

    Don't think Cameroon qualified for the ACN so Benny will be with us in January.
  17. Gaz_Gammon
    I may be a little wrong on this one (and in total agreement on your post) but i didn't see the Managers at Fulham, WBA, Norwich, or West Ham filling their boots with twenty million pound signings here, and thirty million pound signings there when they took over their clubs? What i do see with those particular teams is a will to win, hard graft and a stable formation. In fact everything that Spurs do not currently have. To suggest that Moutinho or anyone fitting a similar description is the answer to our woes is just not looking at the big picture. A defensive midfielder, left back and center half (as good as anyone currently playing) returning from injuries will not transfer this side into a top four team either.

    AVB needs a season and no more to show some kind of progress, any kind of progress. The bullshit of new training facilities and a new ground being any part of the issue for poor performance is plain cack. Finally to talk to the press after the mauling Arsenal gave us and say that Spurs were the better team put's into perspective the delusional thought process that not only kills respect for AVB but shows exactly the issues he had at Chel$ea. He has to recognise what a fool this is making not only the him look, but also the club.

    Levy should not go unnoticed on this, and he must be feeling a little pressure for the appointment of AVB. Sure, if Levy wanted to be rid of Redknapp then it's his prerogative to, but for fucks sake find someone who can drive this team on and who lives in the real World when it comes to analyzing the teams performance especially when he is in front of the press.

    I am not calling for AVB's balls on a plate, just that he or someone at the Club should make clear this annoying and oft used excuse of a "transition period" to spell out what the big picture is because at the moment it like our "domineering" result on Saturday it appears to be all a figment of imagination used to mask poor performance.
  18. jolsnogross
    I think this is a good point and an open question. Do the players have confidence in their manager? They showed a bit of fight against Arsenal, or at least Bale did, but I'm not convinced that they do. And I don't think his delusional comments on the derby are going to help. He doesn't have to over-learn the Chelsea lesson and back the players to the hilt all the time - sometimes they need a bloody good kick in the arse to remind them that they need to shape up. It's not necessarily going to pay off to tell them all the were in control for 90-odd minutes when they shipped five goals. Experienced players or those with half a brain will realize this is pure tosh.

    The "transition period" excuse has never emanated from AVB or the club as far as I know. Only ardent AVB defenders bring it up as though some how having a new training facility explains the Wigan performance. As far as I'm aware, AVB considers his remit to keep us in the top 4.
    • Agree Agree x 1

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