Are We Overly Critical?

[rez9000]

There have been a number of threads on SC in recent times that seem to be vats of bile directed at almost every aspect of the club - the players, the manager, the board. I feel that perhaps we're being a little too harsh in some respects.

Personally, I feel a lot of cynicism towards our board and upper management. For me, their stock has dropped quite alarmingly, primarily because of Martin Jol's departure, but not only for that.

I feel that our coaching system may not be the best solution to gaining long-term success - I'm critical of the DoF system that we employ.

And I feel that in certain areas we have players that aren't quite up to scratch if we are to secure regular Champions League football (which is obviously the long-term goal).

But, the sheer venom that has been directed toward aspects of the club, I feel doesn't just border on hostility, but has actually captured the lush lowlands of outright enmity. We seem to forget that we are supposed to support the club and that our criticism, although well-meant, can be counter-productive.

The various threads on players, personally, I find a little harsh. There have been threads laying into Huddlestone, Dawson, Keane, Jenas, Lee, Robinson, Malbranque. And for the most part those that have started the threads have done it as opinion, rather than as a blatant attack. Unfortunately, these threads very quickly descend into slating and abuse directed against the player in question.

Huddlestone attacked for his lack of pace, and branded crap because he can't run. And that's it. Because he can't run that instantly means he's shit and should be farmed out. Lee attacked because he can't cross. And that's it. Because he can't cross, he's shit and should be farmed out. Jenas attacked etc, etc, etc.

I would ask those that seem to believe that our squad is utter crap a couple of questions: How then, did we secure two top 5 finishes? And more pertinently, what do you suggest we do on a matchday? Field only six players, because they rest are crap?

People forget how young some of our squad actually are. We have only three players who are over the age of 30. In comparison, we have 16 players who are aged 24 and below. SIXTEEN! These sixteen players are still developing, still learning. And yet we expect them to be superstars.

I'm going to go on record and state that I think the squad we have needs strengthening, but that none of our players are outright BAD. If people want to see what experienced players could do, then they should think back to the 90s when we the teams we fielded were experienced, but equally, were laughable in comparison to what we have today.

 

[DC_Boy]

rez - for sure many of us are (not me, at least I aim not to be)

 

[jimbo]

Yes, certainly on the message boards we are. At the games we're not so bad, although the start to the season we had did cause a few mutterings of discontent and the odd bit of booing.

 

[Legend10]

At times I have been overcritical of Jol and I have also been over critical of 1 or 2 of our players (Zokora particularly).

But when push comes to shove I would back our club, board, manager, players, fans and anybody else connected with the club to the hilt against the outside world.

 

[DC_Boy]

I've said before, in my perception at least, our fans overall are more negative/moaning than most in the Prem

I had a big debate on the front page re that comment - I wrote a long reply that never got answered - so I'm putting it here

Originally Posted by jenko
You feel that way but to think about it logically you know its not true. Our fans will generally react the same way as any other large group of fans around the country. There are too many of us to generalise and be able to put a label on us. Our negativity over the last 2/3/4 DECADES is directly related to the hard times/results we've had to endure over that time and any other group of fans would have showed similar qualities to us spurs fans had they gone through the same experiences.

In fairness, we have had many miserable times in the 26 yrs I've been supporting the team. You can't forget those times overnight even with a new regime. In my opinion, I believe we also have the most optimistic fans in the country when things go right for a while (which is just the flipside of the negativity we feel the rest of the time).

....and where do our emotions end up? Somewhere in the middle between depression and elation - same as EVERY other group of fans in the country. So spurs fans AREN'T a bad bunch at all. In fact their the only ones out the with the same good taste as yourself so we need to appreciate them despite the minor disagreements (with the exception of the odd 'freak' of course, but you get them everywhere too).


DC_B -) Jenko re last para about our shared good taste) 'I take your point we should 'generally react' as other fans do - but, and I'm not being illogical here, we seem to react over-neagatively- I'm basing my arguments on my long long perceptions of spurs fans going back nearly 50 years now

indeed your following quote 'Our negativity over the last 2/3/4 DECADES is directly related to the hard times/results we've had to endure over that time and any other group of fans would have showed similar qualities to us spurs fans had they gone through the same experiences.'

shows in fact exactly why I do feel our fans are more negative than most - and if anything the illogicality is yours and others who would back this quote

during the last 2/3/4 decades we've won more major trophies than the vast majority of clubs - we've a higher average league position than the vast majority of clubs - we've had more great players and played better football than the vast majority of clubs- we've only spent one season outside the top flight - far less than the vast majority of clubs

what hard times have we suffered compared to the likes of Wimbledon West Ham Millwall Man City Gillingham Forest Leeds Palace Charlton etc - the list is very long

those are the fans who been through so much worse than us - yet somehow, and that's why I'm not being illogical, our fans manage to moan and groan as if we'd had to put with the stuff that say Bolton or sunderland fans have had to put up with over the years - or the many other clubs I've indicated

why so many spurs fans feel hard put on I don't know - that is the illogical thing - though in actual fact a lot of it is readily explained by the fact that many spurs fans seem to mistake our golden period of 60-63 as to what it always should be like - whereas in fact it was precisely that a golden period and the sooner spurs fans accept that the period say between 1987 and 2007 is far more typical than 60-63 than the less they'll moan

So I repeat, in my experience spurs fans seem to be more negative than most prem club fans - I agree it shouldn't be like that - considering our comparative record over the last twenty years say, we've done better than the average of the top flight clubs during that time and much better than many clubs

I was looking today at the 87 lge table

some of the clubs that finished above Man U that season were norwich wimbledon watford coventry luton & notts forest - also in the top flight that season were soton sheff wed leicester charlton QPR and Oxford utd (now non-league)

how much do you think those fans have suffered over the past 2 decades? are they relative to us 2,3,4,5 times more negative as their ill fortune might suggest?

I reckon some of these sets of fans may even be less negative than us - though I've no proof - but I am confident we are disproportionately negative on the whole

I agree it makes no sense - but your quote that i've highlighted gives a good idea of the (mis)percieved grievances that many Spurs fans have which (partly at least) leads to misplaced negativity

There will be other factors too - for example, and it's a massive generalisation I know - but on the whole I do find northeners and people from the midlands more up front and up beat/jolly than southerners - and londoners do tend to be more miserable than the country at large - now of course I have no proof of this I'm just giving my perceptions from my 50+ years of life experience in this country - I may be wrong on this of course - this is just looking for other reasons and it came to mind

 

[Bobbins]

You reckon?

This board is fucking insane at times. Literally insane. The criticism and vitriol spewing from some people's mouths, often under the cover of 'Oh I was only wondering if we might be a bit better if >insert name of player to make one mistake< had a career-ending injury, honest', is absolutely incredible at times.

 

[Real_madyidd]

I demand perfection.

 

[rez9000]

I'm with you on thet one DC. My own experience isn't as extensive as your good self, but I too get the feeling that we do tend to moan a lot. We seem to be very negative and the 'fickle' label has come about from somewhere.

I think we need to be a little more discerning when it comes to our criticism. So many posts are simple one-line comments, seemingly with no qualification, no argument, as if the comment alone is enough of a point.

I'm going to go all mushy now and say I love Spurs and will back them to the hilt, as Legend says. And criticism is not only acceptable, it is necessary. But what I've seen recently hasn't been constructive criticism, it's been outright hostility, and I feel that that doesn't serve any purpose other than to polarise people.

 

[Insomnia]

Mine's a Stella

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is the best squad of players we have had for many years and we are playing the best football we have for many years. No question. And some of the criticism on here is fucking ludicrous. What really winds me up is the criticism of people like Davids, Lee, Jenas, Malbranque who are some of the best players at this club for many years and the hero worship of players like Robinson & Dawson who are at best "good blokes" but pretty poor at their job. There definately seems to be a zenophobic/racist tint to the way criticism is applied.

It's no good whinging about it, we are all going to do it. It's why SC exists. Just fucks me off when it's applied unintelligently (which it invariably is - Lee is shit etc).

And you do have to balance it and sometimes say "well fucking played":

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=23723

 

[Stoof]

But it's surely the classic behaviour of a person in love.

You can slate your wife/girlfriend/mates, simply because they are yours to slate.

As soon as anyone comes in from an outsider perspective suggesting anything negative about any of the above and in this particular case our club, then I'd expect every single person on this board, on any board, nay any Spurs supporter on the planet to defend their mighty Lilywhite army.

It's because we share the same love that allows us to utterly slaughter them - and I'm not sure that I'd have it any other way.

 

[justfookinhitit]

Yeah, you lot are far too critical and moan too much.

As for me, I'm perfect in every way, shape and form.

And modest too.

 

[DC_Boy]

all - there's no doubt that on boards like these is the place to 'have a moan etc' - unfortunately as we (or most of us know) excessive moaning and groaning carries on within the Lane

that's not good - how sick must JJ be of people summing up his career at Spurs with the highly analytical phrase 'you're shit Jenas' - ditto Lee Stalteri etc etc

it drives me mad that sort of inane contribution - and the way some/many fans seem to actually enjoy bringing the team down - why?

It's clear some of our fans actually need counselling, depression pills, medical help of some kind, because living in such a negative way is not a good thing

 

[worcestersauce]

Are We Overly Critical?

No doubt about it I think you summed it up Rez.

I suspect it's because we are such a massive club that our expectations are so high which in turn means that our failure are so high profile.

It's not just the fans by the way, in the press and on the tele an event at our club is reported differently from most other clubs, even clubs like Blackburn and Middlesborough for example who technically are more successful than us based on on recent trophy count.

Whether it's because they can't help but expect more from us or not I don't know but us being 3 nil down pulling back to 3-3 and then blowing it 3-5 would have have been covered much more than it was with Blackburn, all sorts of gnashing of teeth and questions about whats gone wrong with Tottenham?

By the way I understand why we are called fickle but in all honesty we keep on following the club in our thousands with packed home ground and superb away support after almost 20 years of nothing much so I'm inclined to say passionate and dedicated.

 

[Krafty]

Its the same with any club - when things are good everyone is a hero, when things are bad everyone is at fault. Its not surprising, when the team is doing badly obviously some of the players are, the management is for not getting the players to do better, the board is for not getting in players that can do better.

When we were doing well last season Jol's tactics were good, because they won games. The players were doing well, because we were winning. the board was doing well because they ahd brought in players that were winning.

Take a look at Robinson vs Van der Sar. Robbo has probably made as many errors as VDS but because one team is at the top and one is at the bottom one player gets slated while the other is a footnote in match reports.

 

[dcarney75]

Are We Overly Critical?
I suspect it's because we are such a massive club that our expectations are so high which in turn means that our failure are so high profile.

I think so. Maybe the moaning/negativity is symptomatic of a club which has achieved highly in the past, but not so in recent years.

No matter what we do, we are looked upon as a big club, and when we don't perform (which has been once or twice in recent years) it's always viewed by other fans and the press as something having gone very, very wrong.

 

[orkneyspur]

Interesting thread, but nothing new. We have always been 'over' critical of the club, players etc.
Pratty was a wanker, Roger Morgan couldn't cross, Phil Beal couldn't defend, Chiv was either brilliant are awfull and so it went on.
The difference is that it used to stay at the ground, 'cause that is where we met on a matchday, or at the pub sometimes during the week to plan away matches. No computors, mobiles, texting or email in those days no siree.
The 'forum' gives everyone chance to waffle away, sic, at their hearts content, either to get a response or not.

Sign of the times. Anyway, sticks and stones an' all that, it doesn't kill does it?

 

[AllSeeingEye]

By and large, like it or not, this behaviour is the lifeblood of boards like these.

However, right now I can't understand some of the criticism directed at our team when they are trying so hard to turn around a godawful start to the season.

I could criticise them up to the end Jol's tenure - simply because I felt many players had simply given up and lost concentration, that's what annoyed me.

But at times like that, even though it hurts, you have to hold some of it back - I wouldn't want our team going out with no confidence whatsoever.

I think it is time to get behind the team and try as hard as them to make a decent season out of what we have left.

If that means wincing and keeping schtum occasionally, and having a little more faith then I'm on it.

Stoof is right - you can curse your own, it almost justifies itself.

But as for the quality of threads on SC lately it is getting bloody depressing to keep coming on here to get some good news or big up the team and find thread upon thread of wasteful tosh about whether Zokora can shoot, or whether Robbo should lose some weight, or whether Defoe should be shown the door or what-the-fuck-ever else.

But it's a losing battle.........

My advice; maybe in the interest of free speech continue to say as you please in writing (or in front of the TV), but try and get behind the lads at matches, after all you are part of the team too - the twelfth man!

 

[worcestersauce]

Interesting thread, but nothing new. We have always been 'over' critical of the club, players etc.
Pratty was a wanker, Roger Morgan couldn't cross, Phil Beal couldn't defend, Chiv was either brilliant are awfull and so it went on.
The difference is that it used to stay at the ground, 'cause that is where we met on a matchday, or at the pub sometimes during the week to plan away matches. No computors, mobiles, texting or email in those days no siree.
The 'forum' gives everyone chance to waffle away, sic, at their hearts content, either to get a response or not.

Sign of the times. Anyway, sticks and stones an' all that, it doesn't kill does it?

It also explains some of the bad feeling between fans as they can be in each others face all week now.

I don't want you to think I can't move on or that I am living in the past and I wouldn't want to carry on an arguement 30 years old but, pause for effect, clear throat "ahem" ...."how dare you say Phil Beale couldn't defend" he was the best player never to play for England(excluding jonny foreigners)

 

[justfookinhitit]

It also explains some of the bad feeling between fans as they can be in each others face all week now.

I don't want you to think I can't move on or that I am living in the past and I wouldn't want to carry on an arguement 30 years old but, pause for effect, clear throat "ahem" ...."how dare you say Phil Beale couldn't defend" he was the best player never to play for England(excluding jonny foreigners)

Phil Beale - was he a character on Eastenders ?????!!!!!