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Bus-Conductor

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Oct 19, 2004
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You will of course notice that I altered that before you posted. Perhaps quote correctly rather than bits from before they were edited less than a minute after posting? Point still stands though. For a team that is supposedly challenging to win Champions league, 3 Europa wins and a few domestic trophies with a team that let him buy his dream team, his record is hardly amazing.


Emery almost certainly had nothing to do with purchases like Neymar.

He even complained about the problems he was having getting a clique of players to train properly or follow up tactical instructions.
 

C0YS

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If Arteta has the “unknown factor” what makes you think he has everything to be a top manager?

I thought throwing a job like Arsenal to a bloke who’s never managed a team was either fucking brave or fucking stupid IMO.
I mean there are countless of examples of managers who have done very well on there first gig at a big club.

Okay, Guardiola and Zidane are slightly different in that they did manage youth teams in official leagues before getting the job but its hardly like they had much more experience, and it happens in other leagues all the time that clubs give coaches a chance at being managers.

With Arteta we are not talking about a player with no experience of coaching, he has done it for two years at city and apparently is very highly rated by Guardiola and the club there. He has experienced the management of a lot of top coaches and learning from the very best.

There are a lot of indications just on that that he could become a real top manager, and fresh faced managers with new ideas can really revolutionize clubs. Its a risk but I'd be more scared if they did get Arteta, because while he could could flop completely he couls also take a club to the next level.

Anyway, Emery is deeply uninspiring and is a manager which frankly would really only be taken by Europa League challenging clubs at this point. This morning I realised, Arsenal is one of those clubs, and everything made much more sense.
 

'O Zio

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If Arteta has the “unknown factor” what makes you think he has everything to be a top manager?

Exactly. It's a baffling to me that so many of their fans seem to think that because they don't know Arteta is a terrible manager that automatically means he must be a fantastic manager. Not having had the opportunity to fail at anything before doesn't mean you're likely to succeed. If anything, it makes it much more likely that you won't
 

'O Zio

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I mean there are countless of examples of managers who have done very well on there first gig at a big club.

No there aren't, in fact quite the opposite. Of all the successful managers throughout history, a tiny percentage of them are people who walked into a top job with no experience. There are, however, countless examples of managers who've been fast tracked into big jobs only to be found out to be crap. At best, most of the time these people do better than expected initially but are then found out a year or two in.

You say there are countless examples but I'm struggling to think of any at all apart from Pep off the top of my head. The jury is still very much out on Zidane for me. Yes they've won a couple of CLs but how much of that is down to his opposed to just having the best group of players is still pretty unclear. Also, as you say, Pep and Zidane both had years of experience manging youth teams first. Arteta doesn't even have that. Being a coach is one thing but he's never been in charge of a game in his life. It's a completely different thing. Coaching is just one small aspect of being a manager, and even that he's only done for like 18 months hasn't he? It's like saying because you've worked on the checkout at a supermarket you're automatically going to be a great regional manager for Tesco or something. It's a completely different job.
 

Ghost Hardware

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I actually thought Emery and Monchi did a very good job at Sevilla. Emery played some very good football and I would rather he didn’t go to Arsenal. I don’t feel like it’s something to be laughing about personaly. But obviously I hope it all falls apart.

On the plus side I made 200 quid on this appointment, the minute PSG got knocked out I had a feeling he would be at Arsenal by next season.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Oct 19, 2004
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I mean there are countless of examples of managers who have done very well on there first gig at a big club.

Okay, Guardiola and Zidane are slightly different in that they did manage youth teams in official leagues before getting the job but its hardly like they had much more experience, and it happens in other leagues all the time that clubs give coaches a chance at being managers.

With Arteta we are not talking about a player with no experience of coaching, he has done it for two years at city and apparently is very highly rated by Guardiola and the club there. He has experienced the management of a lot of top coaches and learning from the very best.

There are a lot of indications just on that that he could become a real top manager, and fresh faced managers with new ideas can really revolutionize clubs. Its a risk but I'd be more scared if they did get Arteta, because while he could could flop completely he couls also take a club to the next level.

Anyway, Emery is deeply uninspiring and is a manager which frankly would really only be taken by Europa League challenging clubs at this point. This morning I realised, Arsenal is one of those clubs, and everything made much more sense.


Of course, he could turn out to be great, but he could turn out to be hopeless. Because actually managing a first team, is a quantum leap from just coaching, and coaching under a very intense and methodical coach like Guardiola, who doesn't just let his coaches do the coaching, it's all his methodology. There's so much more to being a number 1, than a number 2 or coach. All of a sudden you have your job riding on every decision you make, coaching, tactics, team selection, match tactics, in game management, managing the players you are pissing off by not playing etc etc

My point is, none of us have a clue, and for a club as big as Arsenal to take a leap into the complete unknown like that would have been crazy IMO.

Emery might not be the sexiest appointment or most innovative they could have made, but he's proved he can work with a good DOF system (Monchi- Sevilla), which Arsenal are now moving too, and get results and trophies. They could have done worse.
 

C0YS

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No there aren't, in fact quite the opposite. Of all the successful managers throughout history, a tiny percentage of them are people who walked into a top job with no experience. There are, however, countless examples of managers who've been fast tracked into big jobs only to be found out to be crap. At best, most of the time these people do better than expected initially but are then found out a year or two in.

You say there are countless examples but I'm struggling to think of any at all apart from Pep off the top of my head. The jury is still very much out on Zidane for me. Yes they've won a couple of CLs but how much of that is down to his opposed to just having the best group of players is still pretty unclear. Also, as you say, Pep and Zidane both had years of experience manging youth teams first. Arteta doesn't even have that. Being a coach is one thing but he's never been in charge of a game in his life. It's a completely different thing. Coaching is just one small aspect of being a manager, and even that he's only done for like 18 months hasn't he? It's like saying because you've worked on the checkout at a supermarket you're automatically going to be a great regional manager for Tesco or something. It's a completely different job.
Well if Zidane has been a top manager in the context of Zidane, he has been great for madrid and thats what you should judge him on.

Okay I'll make a list. On top of Guardiola and Zidane, we have Johann Cruyff, Deschamps, Capello, Zoff, Trapattoni, Claude Puel, Aragones, Sammer, pretty much every Liverpool manager from Paisley to Evans, Del Bosque and Bill Nicholson. I could go on and on.

All of these managers did well at their first club, clubs who were big European teams at the time. Okay, some of them started a long time ago, but the vast majority of those listed are still managing today, or were until recently. A lot of the names also have failed to match the heights that they reached at their first club but were successful non the less.

One of the reasons that most of the names there are hardly recent is because big clubs don't like taking risks anymore. A well developed young manager coming from within, or from a coaching position can be just as good as an experienced hand, particularly if they are innovative and creative figures but clubs, just like when it comes to young players, don't tend to risk selecting coaches without previous experience. Its a bit silly really. A manager who does well in a smaller club does not necessarily have the right tools to do well in a bigger club, similarly a manager who could do well in a big club does not necessarily have the right tools to do well in a smaller club. They do not always require the same tools.
 

C0YS

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Of course, he could turn out to be great, but he could turn out to be hopeless. Because actually managing a first team, is a quantum leap from just coaching, and coaching under a very intense and methodical coach like Guardiola, who doesn't just let his coaches do the coaching, it's all his methodology. There's so much more to being a number 1, than a number 2 or coach. All of a sudden you have your job riding on every decision you make, coaching, tactics, team selection, match tactics, in game management, managing the players you are pissing off by not playing etc etc

My point is, none of us have a clue, and for a club as big as Arsenal to take a leap into the complete unknown like that would have been crazy IMO.

Emery might not be the sexiest appointment or most innovative they could have made, but he's proved he can work with a good DOF system (Monchi- Sevilla), which Arsenal are now moving too, and get results and trophies. They could have done worse.
No we don't, but I'm less scared of how well Emery could do because he is a more known figure, and generally not a revolutionary one, but someone who at his most successful career highs got on par results in the league with a few good cup victories.

To go for Arteta, Its not crazy, its a big gamble, but one that if after doing interviews picking up references and listening to respected figures in the game could be a calculated gamble. The fact is its much more of an unknown for us than it is for other clubs. I agree it would be a brave decision, but it could of been an inspired one, we will never know now.

I think as someone who is very much a supporter of giving youth a chance you should recognize that a lack of experience does not mean a lack of ability. If behind the scenes Arsenal, or another club, saw enough of Arteta to believe he could be a top manager, they should give him a chance. Regardless of the status of the club. For a team like Arsenal, which is unlikely to challenge for the league next season, in a strong financial position, whats the absolute worst that can happen?
 

'O Zio

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Well if Zidane has been a top manager in the context of Zidane, he has been great for madrid and thats what you should judge him on.

Okay I'll make a list. On top of Guardiola and Zidane, we have Johann Cruyff, Deschamps, Capello, Zoff, Trapattoni, Claude Puel, Aragones, Sammer, pretty much every Liverpool manager from Paisley to Evans, Del Bosque and Bill Nicholson. I could go on and on.

All of these managers did well at their first club, clubs who were big European teams at the time. Okay, some of them started a long time ago, but the vast majority of those listed are still managing today, or were until recently. A lot of the names also have failed to match the heights that they reached at their first club but were successful non the less.

One of the reasons that most of the names there are hardly recent is because big clubs don't like taking risks anymore. A well developed young manager coming from within, or from a coaching position can be just as good as an experienced hand, particularly if they are innovative and creative figures but clubs, just like when it comes to young players, don't tend to risk selecting coaches without previous experience. Its a bit silly really. A manager who does well in a smaller club does not necessarily have the right tools to do well in a bigger club, similarly a manager who could do well in a big club does not necessarily have the right tools to do well in a smaller club. They do not always require the same tools.

Regarding Zidane I'm not really judging him one way or another, like I say, the jury is still very much out IMO.

I'm not saying there are no examples where people have come in and been good, it's your suggestion that there are countless examples that I disagree with. And to be honest based on the list of names you've mentioned it's kind of backed up my point. Out of the people you've mentioned almost all of them started out either managing youth teams or being assistants etc. With the exception of a couple of them, they weren't Arteta-style appointments who had never managed a game in their life. As for the really old ones I don't really count that because it was just a completely different game back then. You could only really pick a manager based on people who were able to physically turn up for interviews etc. and that narrowed down field quite significantly. Nowadays where you can hire some bloke from Peru as manager if you want that doesn't really apply to the 50s/60s where it was a considerable effort to get down to London from Newcastle, let alone another country. Nowadays you can pick from basically anyone in the world.

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to come in an do a great job, but if anyone could be bothered (I know I can't :D) to go back through the archives and look at all the people who were given big managerial jobs with zero experience, I can all but guarantee the vast majority of them won't have been successful. If you're thrown into a job for which you have no experience, you're far more likely to fail than succeed, whether it's football or any other industry. That's just common sense.
 

C0YS

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Regarding Zidane I'm not really judging him one way or another, like I say, the jury is still very much out IMO.

I'm not saying there are no examples where people have come in and been good, it's your suggestion that there are countless examples that I disagree with. And to be honest based on the list of names you've mentioned it's kind of backed up my point. Out of the people you've mentioned almost all of them started out either managing youth teams or being assistants etc. With the exception of a couple of them, they weren't Arteta-style appointments who had never managed a game in their life. As for the really old ones I don't really count that because it was just a completely different game back then. You could only really pick a manager based on people who were able to physically turn up for interviews etc. and that narrowed down field quite significantly. Nowadays where you can hire some bloke from Peru as manager if you want that doesn't really apply to the 50s/60s where it was a considerable effort to get down to London from Newcastle, let alone another country. Nowadays you can pick from basically anyone in the world.

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to come in an do a great job, but if anyone could be bothered (I know I can't :D) to go back through the archives and look at all the people who were given big managerial jobs with zero experience, I can all but guarantee the vast majority of them won't have been successful. If you're thrown into a job for which you have no experience, you're far more likely to fail than succeed, whether it's football or any other industry. That's just common sense.
Arteta is an assistant manager, and his role is consistent with the names mentioned, some started out with youth teams but in the english game, Arteta's position is higher than any youth coach. He does have experience within the game, probably taking training sessions, analyzing other teams and discussing tactics and working on solutions with the coaching team. He just hasn't made the step up of being the boss man.

The only two that were significantly old examples were Paisley, who was pointed out because he was the first manager to come from the Liverpool set up in a long line of managers, and Nicholson because he is the most successful spurs manager of all time. All the others are from the eighties onwards, were people did travel a lot. Most of them are either still managing or only very recently retired.

Teams risk less now so are less likely to gamble on managers without experience, but when given the chance they generally don't do to badly, unless your talking about Milan since Ancelotti left.

On Zidane I don't know how the jury is still out for a manager who is on the brink of joining Ancelotti and Paisley as being the only managers to win the European cup 3 times. What do you have to do to be considered a success?
 

Bus-Conductor

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Oct 19, 2004
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No we don't, but I'm less scared of how well Emery could do because he is a more known figure, and generally not a revolutionary one, but someone who at his most successful career highs got on par results in the league with a few good cup victories.

To go for Arteta, Its not crazy, its a big gamble, but one that if after doing interviews picking up references and listening to respected figures in the game could be a calculated gamble. The fact is its much more of an unknown for us than it is for other clubs. I agree it would be a brave decision, but it could of been an inspired one, we will never know now.

I think as someone who is very much a supporter of giving youth a chance you should recognize that a lack of experience does not mean a lack of ability. If behind the scenes Arsenal, or another club, saw enough of Arteta to believe he could be a top manager, they should give him a chance. Regardless of the status of the club. For a team like Arsenal, which is unlikely to challenge for the league next season, in a strong financial position, whats the absolute worst that can happen?


Really poor comparison, It's almost the opposite process. There's a world of difference between wanting to see youth players, who have proven over years and waited a decade in some cases, to get a fair chance - and even then I don't advocate they are instantly installed as first team regulars - than wanting a coach, with no experience to be handed a plum job, whilst others have done the hard yards, learnt the trade properly, cut their teeth at the sharp end, taken risks and learnt the job.
 

riggi

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C0YS

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Really poor comparison, It's almost the opposite process. There's a world of difference between wanting to see youth players, who have proven over years and waited a decade in some cases, to get a fair chance - and even then I don't advocate they are instantly installed as first team regulars - than wanting a coach, with no experience to be handed a plum job, whilst others have done the hard yards, learnt the trade properly, cut their teeth at the sharp end, taken risks and learnt the job.

Surely its the same with coaches, they do have experience. They do wait a long time for a chance at a management role, sometimes decades, and they are generally not given a fair chance by the big clubs, who rather spend lots of money on someone proven who may well not be as good.

Arteta has two years experience with the best manager in the world right now. That is coaching experience, and for a big team probably ten times more valuable than managing a league 1 club.

Yeh its unfair on other talented coaches that Arteta has been quickly pushed through into senior positions at Man city and is talked up for jobs. But this is because he was hand picked to do so, probably due to the reputation he had as a player. Arteta was a player who was already being primed for managment well before his retirement according to 'insiders' at Arsenal. He is learning his trade, just in a different way.

Arteta is essentially the equivelent of wonderkid in youth football, he is being quickly brought through the usual steps because he is perceived to be a very talented young coach.

The whole doing hard graft in the lower leagues or teams is such an anglo-mentality. You can learn the job shadowing top managers and working within big clubs, you don't have to go searching down the division, as I showed in my list before, the large number of highly successful managers who went into a top job from a coaching position in a big club is testament to that. Of course there is another list of complete failures who got in via that route. But there you go.
 

'O Zio

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Dec 27, 2014
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Arteta is an assistant manager, and his role is consistent with the names mentioned, some started out with youth teams but in the english game, Arteta's position is higher than any youth coach. He does have experience within the game, probably taking training sessions, analyzing other teams and discussing tactics and working on solutions with the coaching team. He just hasn't made the step up of being the boss man.

The only two that were significantly old examples were Paisley, who was pointed out because he was the first manager to come from the Liverpool set up in a long line of managers, and Nicholson because he is the most successful spurs manager of all time. All the others are from the eighties onwards, were people did travel a lot. Most of them are either still managing or only very recently retired.

Teams risk less now so are less likely to gamble on managers without experience, but when given the chance they generally don't do to badly, unless your talking about Milan since Ancelotti left.

On Zidane I don't know how the jury is still out for a manager who is on the brink of joining Ancelotti and Paisley as being the only managers to win the European cup 3 times. What do you have to do to be considered a success?

We're going to have to agree to disagree I suppose. Like I say, if I could be bothered to spend hours looking back through everything I'm pretty sure you'd find that most people thrust straight into big jobs eventually failed, even if they might've had a successful first season. As I say, it's just common sense that someone with experience is more likely to succeed than someone with no experience. The fact that there are exceptions to that rule doesn't say anything. Likewise if Emery is a disaster that doesn't prove that they should've hired Arteta. I'm uninspired by Emery too, but ultimately the board have made the sensible decision. Whether that turns out to be the right one we may never know.

As for Zidane, like I say, I'm not criticizing him. You can't really argue with 2 and hopefully 3 European Cups. My only hesitation to say he's really a good manager comes from the fact that he's inherited such a talented squad that I'm not sure how much of that is down to him being a great manager or whether he's just an average manager with an exceptional team of players who are used to winning and know what needs to be done to get there. Also if you look at their league performances this season, in particular during the first half of the season, they've been well short of their own very high standards. If he stays at Madrid and builds a new team once the likes of Ronaldo, Modric, Ramos etc. have retired/moved on, and is still equally as successful, then I'll consider him to be great manager. Likewise if he goes to another club and wins the CL etc. then there's no question he's a great manager. But right now I can't decide one way or another because he doesn't have the body of work to prove this isn't a stroke of luck that he's just inherited a great team and gets them to play for him because they respect what he did as a player.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Oct 19, 2004
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Surely its the same with coaches, they do have experience. They do wait a long time for a chance at a management role, sometimes decades, and they are generally not given a fair chance by the big clubs, who rather spend lots of money on someone proven who may well not be as good.

Arteta has two years experience with the best manager in the world right now. That is coaching experience, and for a big team probably ten times more valuable than managing a league 1 club.

Yeh its unfair on other talented coaches that Arteta has been quickly pushed through into senior positions at Man city and is talked up for jobs. But this is because he was hand picked to do so, probably due to the reputation he had as a player. Arteta was a player who was already being primed for managment well before his retirement according to 'insiders' at Arsenal. He is learning his trade, just in a different way.

Arteta is essentially the equivelent of wonderkid in youth football, he is being quickly brought through the usual steps because he is perceived to be a very talented young coach.

The whole doing hard graft in the lower leagues or teams is such an anglo-mentality. You can learn the job shadowing top managers and working within big clubs, you don't have to go searching down the division, as I showed in my list before, the large number of highly successful managers who went into a top job from a coaching position in a big club is testament to that. Of course there is another list of complete failures who got in via that route. But there you go.


You're really digging yourself into a position and trying to chuck some of the dirt on me. I didn't mention grafting in lower leagues, but there's a massive difference between actually having some experience of being in charge at any club than just being handed one of Europe's top jobs.

My point above isn't that jobs have to go only to coaches who've spent 15 years working their way up the divisions, it was that your comparison of youth player promotion more represented this than just doing two years as an assistant to Guardiola and then being given the job at one of Europes biggest clubs. That would be the equivalent of making a decision to play a 16yo for every game of the season because he was the most talented 14/15yo at the club.

For every name on your list of about 15 since the seventies, there's been about 20 assistants who've not been a success. And your list is a bit dubious isn't it. Deschamps for a start, won one league title in 17 years and has made a pigs ear of the French job so far, fluked his way to a final in their own country with an incredibly talented squad. Capello managed the Milan youth team for 4 years before getting the job as caretaker, then permanently. Zoff (?) Won two cups in nearly 20 years. Trappatoni managed the Milan youth team for two years, then won nothing in his first senior job with Milan. Puel was a player at Monaco for 20 years, then managed the reserve team for 3, then got the senior job. Del Bosque spent 9 years at Real in various coaching capacities (as well as 16 years as a player), before being given a proper crack at the top job. Bill Nicholson had also spent 17 years at Spurs as a player, then coached through the ranks for 3 years before being given the job.
 

Danners9

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They have announced 'Visit Rwanda' as their first sleeve sponsor.

Have to admit, I'd never considered Rwanda but it looks interesting. Lots of wildlife and spectacular landscape.
 
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