Away form against top sides

Archibald&Crooks

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#81
If we win the easier games, results against the top 6 don't matter.
When we were trying (and failing) to get Top 4 I was all over this like a cheap suit, insisting that results against the top 4 were key and I got widely poo-poo'd for it with very many people saying what you've just said there. Our record at the time was abysmal, we hadn't beaten the scum (or Chelsea) for god knows how long and wins against United were rarer than a sensible post in the match day thread, all we had was a very occasional win against Liverpool. Then we started to get wins against them and lo! Top fouryness came.

(IMO) I was right then and i'm right now. A win against United/City or whoever is worth twice as much, you get three points and take three points away from them.

Yes, you still have to do it against the lesser teams, they all do, all of the top 4 will have disappointing results against 'lesser' teams but wins against the top clubs go that much further toward helping you on your way, don't get any, or at least lose too many and you're struggling no matter how you do against the lesser teams.

All in my humble onion and all that. But I'm confident with it :D
 

shelfboy68

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#82
That was not the all conquering MUFC team of old under SAF but just a pale shadow of that side/SAF teams. The fact we have gone away, again, and put in that kind of performance just goes to show we are nowhere near ready to win the league. Dress it how you want but just 1 win away at a fellow top 6 team since MP has taken over is not good enough if you are talking about winning the league.

Our team/club suffers some kind of mental block that it just cant get over when we go away to big sides, Can it ever get over only time will tell but if we want to win PL/Cups then we need to get over that hurdle and fast.....
Agree talent wise we are not too far off some of the other challengers except for strength and quality in depth, it has to be a mental thing as we don't believe enough.
 
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Shadydan

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#83
its not so much the results more about how passive we are, Saturday was poor, and the games last season we seem to lack the mentality to win, for all Poch has done i still dont think the team believe we can win these games, in his book Poch constantly talks about being brave but in these games we arent
It's not the mentality we lack, sometimes the other team is just better on the day and if we are playing our rivals away from home who are in or around the top 6 then generally we're more often than not going to lose those matches. We are not going to look ourselves because are facing good teams who can stifle us.
 

knowlespurs

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#84
It's not the mentality we lack, sometimes the other team is just better on the day and if we are playing our rivals away from home who are in or around the top 6 then generally we're more often than not going to lose those matches. We are not going to look ourselves because are facing good teams who can stifle us.
i take your point but over a 16 game period we really should be winning more than one
 

SUIYHA

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#90
Newsflash...games away from home against the top 6 are pretty hard to win. Not many teams win those games, in fact not many teams draw those games.

It wasn't too long ago under Redknapp/AVB/Sherwood that we were getting slapped 5-2 at the Emirates, 6-0 at the Etihad, 4-0 at Anfield and Stamford Bridge etc, let alone the days under Hoddle/Pleat/Jol where we couldn't even get a result against them at home. It's not like that any more - we've beaten all of our top 6 rivals at home in the past 12 months and haven't conceded more than twice away to any of them since March 2015.

I would say that Liverpool last season was the only one since the summer 2015 window in which we were well and deservedly beaten...I guess United away last year wasn't great either. Our games against big teams away from home tend to be tight games decided by a single moment of brilliance from one of the better players in the league or a single mistake from our side, whereas they used to resemble a heavyweight boxer fighting a disabled child.

The other thing to remember is how the bigger sides perceive this match. Gone are the days of "Lads, it's Tottenham". We've made this into a six pointer for Man Utd, Man City and Liverpool, and whilst we always had the rivalry with Chelsea and Arsenal they both also know that defeat to us now has bigger ramifications than just bragging rights. They will prepare for our visits in a different way than they used to, they will spend more time analysing our matches in detail, looking for the strenghts and weaknesses of our players and making sure that their squads are up for a big game. Even with all of that going on we're still usually giving a good game of them all.

If you're expecting us to ever get to five wins out of five against those teams then you're going to be disappointed. I mean if we even go a full season without losing away to any of them I'll be amazed. Very few teams can do that.
 

nicdic

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#92
I'd love to see the stats for all the top 6 in these fixtures so that we have some meaningful context.
 

SUIYHA

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#93
I'd love to see the stats for all the top 6 in these fixtures so that we have some meaningful context.
Have just dug a little deeper into this. I'm going to start from the 2015/16 season, after we signed Toby, Alli and Son and actually became a team that looked like being able to challenge as opposed to the cannon fodder we used to be. Have not included this season as I think everyone is on one game each and it's not enough to be representative yet.

2015/16 - Total Points from Away Games Against the Big 6:

Liverpool 8
Man Utd
7
Chelsea
6
Tottenham
6
Man City
4
Arsenal
3

2016/17 - Total Points from Away Games Against the Big 6:

Liverpool 9
Chelsea
4
Man City
4
Tottenham
2
Man Utd
2
Arsenal
1

Total:

Liverpool 17
Chelsea
10
Man Utd
9
Man City
8
Tottenham
8
Arsenal
4


That really is a superb record from Liverpool. But...you got the same number of points for winning away against one of your big rivals as you do for beating the shite at home, and so they've had an 8th and 4th place finish to show for it.

We are only two points behind second in this table - if that ball that hit the post in the last minute of the NLD last season had gone in, or we'd bothered marking Victor Moses as he scored the rebound at Stamford Bridge, we'd be in second place in this table. Fine margins. But again - massive progress compared with if you looked at pre-2015 when we were whipping boys.

These are tough games to win, any points in these games should be celebrated. The manager with the most league titles to his name in the division sets up his team to get acceptable draws from these games as long as they can win the home legs. There's a reason for that.
 

Shadydan

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#94
Have just dug a little deeper into this. I'm going to start from the 2015/16 season, after we signed Toby, Alli and Son and actually became a team that looked like being able to challenge as opposed to the cannon fodder we used to be. Have not included this season as I think everyone is on one game each and it's not enough to be representative yet.

2015/16 - Total Points from Away Games Against the Big 6:

Liverpool 8
Man Utd
7
Chelsea
6
Tottenham
6
Man City
4
Arsenal
3

2016/17 - Total Points from Away Games Against the Big 6:

Liverpool 9
Chelsea
4
Man City
4
Tottenham
2
Man Utd
2
Arsenal
1

Total:

Liverpool 17
Chelsea
10
Man Utd
9
Man City
8
Tottenham
8
Arsenal
4


That really is a superb record from Liverpool. But...you got the same number of points for winning away against one of your big rivals as you do for beating the shite at home, and so they've had an 8th and 4th place finish to show for it.

We are only two points behind second in this table - if that ball that hit the post in the last minute of the NLD last season had gone in, or we'd bothered marking Victor Moses as he scored the rebound at Stamford Bridge, we'd be in second place in this table. Fine margins. But again - massive progress compared with if you looked at pre-2015 when we were whipping boys.

These are tough games to win, any points in these games should be celebrated. The manager with the most league titles to his name in the division sets up his team to get acceptable draws from these games as long as they can win the home legs. There's a reason for that.
Great post, thanks for that - just as I thought most teams bar Liverpool who were ripping rival's apart last season were always gonna stand out.
 

mstill13

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Messages
214
#95
Have just dug a little deeper into this. I'm going to start from the 2015/16 season, after we signed Toby, Alli and Son and actually became a team that looked like being able to challenge as opposed to the cannon fodder we used to be. Have not included this season as I think everyone is on one game each and it's not enough to be representative yet.

2015/16 - Total Points from Away Games Against the Big 6:

Liverpool 8
Man Utd
7
Chelsea
6
Tottenham
6
Man City
4
Arsenal
3

2016/17 - Total Points from Away Games Against the Big 6:

Liverpool 9
Chelsea
4
Man City
4
Tottenham
2
Man Utd
2
Arsenal
1

Total:

Liverpool 17
Chelsea
10
Man Utd
9
Man City
8
Tottenham
8
Arsenal
4


That really is a superb record from Liverpool. But...you got the same number of points for winning away against one of your big rivals as you do for beating the shite at home, and so they've had an 8th and 4th place finish to show for it.

We are only two points behind second in this table - if that ball that hit the post in the last minute of the NLD last season had gone in, or we'd bothered marking Victor Moses as he scored the rebound at Stamford Bridge, we'd be in second place in this table. Fine margins. But again - massive progress compared with if you looked at pre-2015 when we were whipping boys.

These are tough games to win, any points in these games should be celebrated. The manager with the most league titles to his name in the division sets up his team to get acceptable draws from these games as long as they can win the home legs. There's a reason for that.
Thank you! Very interesting.

Liverpool prove it's pretty meaningless as a measurement of success.

Maybe we should share this with an Arsenal forum? :LOL:
 

PeeEyeEmPee

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#96
personally, I'd rather be the best by actually beating the best rather than just feasting on the rest

the gap between the top 6 and the rest in the PL is gradually getting wider, and the assumption has to be that the Top 6 will win the huge majority of games v bottom 14 sides. IMO this makes games between Top 6 teams important, firstly for the 3 points you potentially win, and almost as importantly for the 3 points you stop your opponent winning. had we won at Stamford Bridge last season for instance, that puts us 6 points closer to Chelsea and they finished 7 ahead. it's literally the difference between them strolling to the title, and us making it an actual contest.

I look at the table SUIYHA posted slightly differently - had we been top of it, we'd almost certainly have won the league in at least one of the past two seasons. we absolutely battered the smaller teams last season, that wasn't our problem at all. "two points off second" sounds great (and we LOVE to constantly point out how close we were to what could've been), but the facts are we were second-bottom of that away mini-league between the Top 6, and that was even with an almost certainly never-to-be-repeated home record last season. let's also not forget that ALL these teams have been utter garbage at least one of the last two seasons too.

1 win in 16 away games tells it's own story. if we were able to up that to even just 3 or 4 wins, it would probably make a massive difference. if we're trying to be better than the rest, then we really need to get away from this attitude that matching their mediocrity is ok. forget being ok with "two points off second" (or 5th by any other evaluation), why can't we just be top for once? if Liverpool can do it two seasons running, with a squad much worse than ours, then why can't we?
 

Shadydan

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#97
personally, I'd rather be the best by actually beating the best rather than just feasting on the rest

the gap between the top 6 and the rest in the PL is gradually getting wider, and the assumption has to be that the Top 6 will win the huge majority of games v bottom 14 sides. IMO this makes games between Top 6 teams important, firstly for the 3 points you potentially win, and almost as importantly for the 3 points you stop your opponent winning. had we won at Stamford Bridge last season for instance, that puts us 6 points closer to Chelsea and they finished 7 ahead. it's literally the difference between them strolling to the title, and us making it an actual contest.

I look at the table SUIYHA posted slightly differently - had we been top of it, we'd almost certainly have won the league in at least one of the past two seasons. we absolutely battered the smaller teams last season, that wasn't our problem at all. "two points off second" sounds great (and we LOVE to constantly point out how close we were to what could've been), but the facts are we were second-bottom of that away mini-league between the Top 6, and that was even with an almost certainly never-to-be-repeated home record last season. let's also not forget that ALL these teams have been utter garbage at least one of the last two seasons too.

1 win in 16 away games tells it's own story. if we were able to up that to even just 3 or 4 wins, it would probably make a massive difference. if we're trying to be better than the rest, then we really need to get away from this attitude that matching their mediocrity is ok. forget being ok with "two points off second" (or 5th by any other evaluation), why can't we just be top for once? if Liverpool can do it two seasons running, with a squad much worse than ours, then why can't we?
Maybe because Liverpool style is best suited to handle teams who allow them to play to their strengths and besides like you say Liverpool absolutely dominated this mini league but how far did it get them? I hear what you're saying, it would be great to beat the big teams away from home but the fact is that's it's an extremely difficult thing to do and you don't win prizes for winning a mini league.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

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#98
forget how far it got them, how far would it get us is what we need to be asking. Liverpool are good enough to beat anyone on their day, but they don't have either the quality or the consistency we do. were we able to perform better against the big teams, don't you think we'd have a MUCH likelier chance of actually winning something?

I don't know why some seem to have such a massive problem with admitting we're just not good enough in some regards, and CAN do a lot better. doing so wouldn't in any way take away from what we've achieved up to this point.
 

ljinko888

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#99
forget how far it got them, how far would it get us is what we need to be asking. Liverpool are good enough to beat anyone on their day, but they don't have either the quality or the consistency we do. were we able to perform better against the big teams, don't you think we'd have a MUCH likelier chance of actually winning something?

I don't know why some seem to have such a massive problem with admitting we're just not good enough in some regards, and CAN do a lot better. doing so wouldn't in any way take away from what we've achieved up to this point.
Agree. This team is very good, it's young and should only get better. But lets not act like we're Barcelona of 2011. There are flaws that need to be addressed and this away record against top six is one as the sample size is not small. We don't keep clean sheets in these games which for a side built on a strong defensive unit begs the question why...? Why do individual errors occur in these games? Martial's goal was a mistake by both Dier and Jan. The whole team had a mare at Anfield last season. Lloris at City. Kane at OT last season. Wimmer against Chelsea for Moses's winner. Pretty much every goal was due to an individual messing up.
 

shelfboy68

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forget how far it got them, how far would it get us is what we need to be asking. Liverpool are good enough to beat anyone on their day, but they don't have either the quality or the consistency we do. were we able to perform better against the big teams, don't you think we'd have a MUCH likelier chance of actually winning something?

I don't know why some seem to have such a massive problem with admitting we're just not good enough in some regards, and CAN do a lot better. doing so wouldn't in any way take away from what we've achieved up to this point.
I agree with you that in these big games away from home we are simply not good enough the stats don't lie, I maintain the view that we simply do not have the self belief to go a get results there.
When you look at some of our records away they are shamefull take Chelsea for example we haven't won there since 1989, even during the 90s when they weren't that great we still won fuck all there.
To be honest I'm not that confident of these away games so maybe that uncertainty transmits down to the players, although we can't blame fans for the team losing at these venues the fact remains that away from home against the top six we are not very good and if we was to win then you take the points away from them sometimes the margins can be as slight as psychological.
 
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