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Carrick coming back?!

Stoof

THERE IS A PIGEON IN MY BANK ACCOUNT
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Jun 5, 2004
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All this Carrick talk really makes me laugh... it was the best bit of business this club had done in years selling M Carrick for 18.6M. People still think it was about Carrick at Spurs when truly it was a collective combination of players like Edger Davids who fails to get any recognition and Jenas goals.

It was the best bit of business for the accounting side of the club. For the footballing side it set us back big time - to a state that we haven't recovered, and which ultimately saw us lose our manager, which gives us another 5 year plan.

Causation theories can be ****s - this one is no exception - but everything was going pretty well until we let Michael Carrick go.

Carrick can't even get into the United team. His been over hyped by Spurs supporters.

It's difficult to play when your injured. And no, he was one of the midfield greats to go up there with longer servants of our club. It's a shame we parted ways, as I have no doubt he would have played himself into a starting role in the England team.
 

yiddotilidie

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2005
4,002
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All this Carrick talk really makes me laugh... it was the best bit of business this club had done in years selling M Carrick for 18.6M. People still think it was about Carrick at Spurs when truly it was a collective combination of players like Edger Davids who fails to get any recognition and Jenas goals.

Carrick can't even get into the United team. His been over hyped by Spurs supporters.

This sums up a fan with very little knowledge of what he gave us.

Check out the goals against column when he played, and his partnership with Jenas.
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
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18 million was a great price to sell him for but I'm not convinced a great price to pay for him...

For that money there has to be someone better than Carrick who could be a complete midfielder general for us. 18 million is top shelf money and Carrick isn't top shelf. You have to wonder why Fergie spent huge money on Hargreaves & Anderson after having a good look at Carrick?

If anything THFC should offer 10 million tops, who else is going to pay that for him? Certainly no other teams would consider 18 million.

But how many other CMs in the whole of Europe can protect the back 4 as Carrick did and still be the teams number 1 source for creating goals? Fergie tried to buy Hargreaves at the same time as Carrick, so he didn't make the decision after taking a look at Carrick. The idea was always to buy them both. He came close to buying Senna instead of Hargreaves. As for Anderson, as others have pointed out, Scholes is getting on and Fletcher is the most likley to suffer. CArrick made 135 tackles for us (only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that last season). He made 1938 passes for us (Again only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that). He made 88 crosses from open play, which was the 11th highest in the Prem, which when you consider he is a DM is incredible. He made 6 assists and scored 2 goals. Stats like that for a player in his position are phenomanol. He literally was the heart beat of the team. At Utd they play with a flatter CM, so Carrick doesn't have the same level of responsibility. There are numerous players who can play the role he has been playing for Utd, so for them maybe he wasn't worth £18 million. But, for the role he played for us, there are very few players who can do it to the level Carrick did, so he is much more valuable. I'd rather we'd kept Carrick than recieved £25 million for him. It's not as if we could have spent that £25 million on the best players in the world. Since he's left we've spent over £50 million on players and not even come close to replacing him. The best players want to join CL clubs.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
5,857
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For me, Carrick's experience at Man Utd reveals how slightly different systems and roles can dramatically affect a player's confidence and performance.

At Spurs, it was abundantly clear that Carrick was Jol's lynchpin, sitting in DM, shielding the back four and dictating the tempo. We all knew Mendes was a good player, but Jol never rotated him with Carrick - poor old Pedro's Spurs career was over as soon as BMJ decided Mikey was his man. The team was organized through and around Carrick's strengths, and he flourished as a footballer.

At Man U, Carrick is not the main man, and Ferguson changes his midfield setup on a regular basis - for instance, sometimes effectively playing with three CMs. My suspicion is that Ferguson (and Queiroz) think Carrick is more valuable to the team in European games than in EPL games, and his confidence has suffered a bit as a result. He may make himself a key player there, but he hasn't succeeded yet, and his England career is now in the balance.

Conversely, Kanoute was never the main man at Spurs, and after that semi-final handball in our own box, Jol never seemed entirely to trust him. So, Spurs fans saw glimpses of what Fredi could do, but were mostly frustrated. At Sevilla, Ramos saw Fredi's strengths and played to them - playing a fast striker ahead of him allowing him to use his great techique to control the ball and bring runners into play, two pacy wide players prepared to get to the byline and put in lots of crosses etc etc.

So, players have to be good enough, but it's also a case of coaches getting the best out of them. And, luckily for us, Ramos seems to be pretty good at this.
 

stemark44

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2005
6,598
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But how many other CMs in the whole of Europe can protect the back 4 as Carrick did and still be the teams number 1 source for creating goals? Fergie tried to buy Hargreaves at the same time as Carrick, so he didn't make the decision after taking a look at Carrick. The idea was always to buy them both. He came close to buying Senna instead of Hargreaves. As for Anderson, as others have pointed out, Scholes is getting on and Fletcher is the most likley to suffer. CArrick made 135 tackles for us (only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that last season). He made 1938 passes for us (Again only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that). He made 88 crosses from open play, which was the 11th highest in the Prem, which when you consider he is a DM is incredible. He made 6 assists and scored 2 goals. Stats like that for a player in his position are phenomanol. He literally was the heart beat of the team. At Utd they play with a flatter CM, so Carrick doesn't have the same level of responsibility. There are numerous players who can play the role he has been playing for Utd, so for them maybe he wasn't worth £18 million. But, for the role he played for us, there are very few players who can do it to the level Carrick did, so he is much more valuable. I'd rather we'd kept Carrick than recieved £25 million for him. It's not as if we could have spent that £25 million on the best players in the world. Since he's left we've spent over £50 million on players and not even come close to replacing him. The best players want to join CL clubs.

Very well said Joey,I would have loved it if Carrick had stayed at Spurs,best player we had by a fair distance.
In my opinion he did far more for the team than even Ledley!
I hate seeing him play for United but there is no way I want him back now and I could'nt see it happening in a million years anyway.
We need to move on and hope that Ramos can find us another midfield general,the sooner the better!
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
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Very well said Joey,I would have loved it if Carrick had stayed at Spurs,best player we had by a fair distance.
In my opinion he did far more for the team than even Ledley!
I hate seeing him play for United but there is no way I want him back now and I could'nt see it happening in a million years anyway.
We need to move on and hope that Ramos can find us another midfield general,the sooner the better!

The annoying things is, that the best midfielder I've seen this season has been Keita at Seville. Who ironically is the player Monchi bought after Berlin turned down their offer for KPB. What is worse is that he only cost 4 million euros. He'd be perfect for us, but i can't see Seville letting him go so soon.
 

Has1978

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,058
37
But how many other CMs in the whole of Europe can protect the back 4 as Carrick did and still be the teams number 1 source for creating goals? Fergie tried to buy Hargreaves at the same time as Carrick, so he didn't make the decision after taking a look at Carrick. The idea was always to buy them both. He came close to buying Senna instead of Hargreaves. As for Anderson, as others have pointed out, Scholes is getting on and Fletcher is the most likley to suffer. CArrick made 135 tackles for us (only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that last season). He made 1938 passes for us (Again only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that). He made 88 crosses from open play, which was the 11th highest in the Prem, which when you consider he is a DM is incredible. He made 6 assists and scored 2 goals. Stats like that for a player in his position are phenomanol. He literally was the heart beat of the team. At Utd they play with a flatter CM, so Carrick doesn't have the same level of responsibility. There are numerous players who can play the role he has been playing for Utd, so for them maybe he wasn't worth £18 million. But, for the role he played for us, there are very few players who can do it to the level Carrick did, so he is much more valuable. I'd rather we'd kept Carrick than recieved £25 million for him. It's not as if we could have spent that £25 million on the best players in the world. Since he's left we've spent over £50 million on players and not even come close to replacing him. The best players want to join CL clubs.

Depressingly, you're absolutely right.

Joey, would you accept a Berbatov for Carrick straight swap?
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
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Depressingly, you're absolutely right.

Joey, would you accept a Berbatov for Carrick straight swap?

Yes, I've said so before. However, that was with Jol in charge. Ramos seems to like to play 2 CMs in a more restrictive role. Poulsen and Renato are both essentially DMs and though Keita was the top scoring CM in France last year, from what i've seen of him at Seville, he too is now sitting that bit deeper. This is very much how Scholes and Carrick played at Utd last season and though Carrick did well, he wasn't being asked to run the game in the way he did for us, so wasn't as valuable in that system. I'd guess Ramos would use him in a similar way to Ferguson and therefore I'm not so sure he'd have the same effect. In simple terms, Jol's ideal 442 would look like this:

LW-------Box to Box CM------RW

----------Midfield anchor

Whilst Ramos seems to prefer

LW--------------------------RW
----------CM-----CM

I see Carrick as at his most valuable in the midfield anchor role, where he can dictate the play and protect the back 4, rather than when he is sharing general CM responsibility. So I might not still do the deal, as I'm a huge fan of Berba's and there are many midfielders who can play the way Ramos seems to prefer his CM to play. Basically I'm not sure Carrick has the same value to a Ramos midfield as he does to a Jol midfield.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
All this Carrick talk really makes me laugh... it was the best bit of business this club had done in years selling M Carrick for 18.6M. People still think it was about Carrick at Spurs when truly it was a collective combination of players like Edger Davids who fails to get any recognition and Jenas goals.

Carrick can't even get into the United team. His been over hyped by Spurs supporters.

To be honest, I lean more towards the sentiments expressed by double0 here really. I liked Carrick alot, don't misunderstand me, but 18 mil was a phoenominal piece of business (I wouldn't mind betting that the club would have taken 12). I've thought about what to post about the potential of Carrick coming back - but resisted as I think it is total rebound bollocks for the story that appeared a few days ago.

What I liked about Carrick was that he generally did simple things really well, and generally tried to make himself available. He was pretty economical with the ball if generally unspectacular. I always thought his best games were when he was released from the "holding role" by having Davids next to him, giving him more freedom. I think at Manu he gets this and also players that are schooled in movement off the ball - giving him the options he likes.

The price that ManU paid seemed to retrospectively enhance everybody's opinion of him by warp factor 2. I bet not one of us would have priced him anywhere above 10-12 mil max of honest. People forget that Carrick was/is easily stopped by sitting on him. We did it this year. And he frequently had "quiet" games or went missing in big games.

I'd have him back for the right price but not to play the holding role in a midfield 4.

I'd much rather we went after a "Davids" to lead and control the area in front of the defence. Which allows more freedom in the other players in the midfield.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
Yes, I've said so before. However, that was with Jol in charge. Ramos seems to like to play 2 CMs in a more restrictive role. Poulsen and Renato are both essentially DMs and though Keita was the top scoring CM in France last year, from what i've seen of him at Seville, he too is now sitting that bit deeper. This is very much how Scholes and Carrick played at Utd last season and though Carrick did well, he wasn't being asked to run the game in the way he did for us, so wasn't as valuable in that system. I'd guess Ramos would use him in a similar way to Ferguson and therefore I'm not so sure he'd have the same effect. In simple terms, Jol's ideal 442 would look like this:

LW-------Box to Box CM------RW

----------Midfield anchor

Whilst Ramos seems to prefer

LW--------------------------RW
----------CM-----CM

I see Carrick as at his most valuable in the midfield anchor role, where he can dictate the play and protect the back 4, rather than when he is sharing general CM responsibility. So I might not still do the deal, as I'm a huge fan of Berba's and there are many midfielders who can play the way Ramos seems to prefer his CM to play. Basically I'm not sure Carrick has the same value to a Ramos midfield as he does to a Jol midfield.

I completely agree and also with your earlier posts regarding the value of Carrick to us.

Looking back it was his sale which was the beginning of the end for Jol. He was a unique player, perfectly suited to Jol's preferred system, the footballing equivalent of a cricket all-rounder and he made our side strong for the same reasons.

But you're right he suited Jol's team and I agree that it's uncertain whether he's the perfect player in a Ramos style team.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
But how many other CMs in the whole of Europe can protect the back 4 as Carrick did and still be the teams number 1 source for creating goals? Fergie tried to buy Hargreaves at the same time as Carrick, so he didn't make the decision after taking a look at Carrick. The idea was always to buy them both. He came close to buying Senna instead of Hargreaves. As for Anderson, as others have pointed out, Scholes is getting on and Fletcher is the most likley to suffer. CArrick made 135 tackles for us (only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that last season). He made 1938 passes for us (Again only 3 players in the entire Prem beat that). He made 88 crosses from open play, which was the 11th highest in the Prem, which when you consider he is a DM is incredible. He made 6 assists and scored 2 goals. Stats like that for a player in his position are phenomanol. He literally was the heart beat of the team. At Utd they play with a flatter CM, so Carrick doesn't have the same level of responsibility. There are numerous players who can play the role he has been playing for Utd, so for them maybe he wasn't worth £18 million. But, for the role he played for us, there are very few players who can do it to the level Carrick did, so he is much more valuable. I'd rather we'd kept Carrick than recieved £25 million for him. It's not as if we could have spent that £25 million on the best players in the world. Since he's left we've spent over £50 million on players and not even come close to replacing him. The best players want to join CL clubs.


I really rate Senna very highly. It's a real shame he's pushing 32. He would have been perfect for us. I'm surprised he didn't end up at one of europes giants. Such a good player.


Joey
going back to the Davids stats. They are pretty borderline both sets aren't they. 0.1 difference each time approx (I think). And I think if it was a scientific experiement, you would build in at least 10% tolerence before declaring a benefit or detrement.

Personally I think Davids was the single biggest catalist in that 2005-2006 season, but would also credit Lee, Jenas and Stalteri as providing valuable experience (as even Jenas had CL and International experience) as well as Carrick.

I think the pisser was Davids being shunted out wide completely/subbed and then sold as well as carrick being sold. We lost probably our TWO biggest CM influences in one hit.
 

joey55

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May 20, 2005
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I really rate Senna very highly. It's a real shame he's pushing 32. He would have been perfect for us. I'm surprised he didn't end up at one of europes giants. Such a good player.


Joey
going back to the Davids stats. They are pretty borderline both sets aren't they. 0.1 difference each time approx (I think). And I think if it was a scientific experiement, you would build in at least 10% tolerence before declaring a benefit or detrement.

Personally I think Davids was the single biggest catalist in that 2005-2006 season, but would also credit Lee, Jenas and Stalteri as providing valuable experience (as even Jenas had CL and International experience) as well as Carrick.

I think the pisser was Davids being shunted out wide completely/subbed and then sold as well as carrick being sold. We lost probably our TWO biggest CM influences in one hit.

But the 0.1 isn't a reflection of the difference between games had played and those he didn't, that is 0.5. The 0.1 is the difference between games he played and those we played after he left. That particular stat wasn't to show we were better without him, but to show there was no post Davids slump in form, as our ppg was the same (in fact slightly higher). So any 10% tolerance is irrelevant.

I agree that Davids was a big part of the catalyst that started our improvement from mid table side, to European side, but I can't agree that his leaving had an effect. As i've said before, i saw him playing at the Emirates the week before the 2006/7 season started and it was obvious he was a shadow of the player he once was. He looked more like one of the retired players (it was Bergkamps testimonial) on show, than the current pros.
 

soup

On the straightened arrow
May 26, 2004
3,494
3,592
IF he became available, if he wanted to come back, and more obviously if he fitted in with Ramos' plans then we'd be mad not to go for him, and under those circumstances we, er, probably would. We'd look a bit silly bidding 18m though, but as has been mentioned, I think the bidding would stop quite a way before that - Utd. don't really sell players going up in value.

He's still my favourite English centre midfielder in the job he does and as I've probably said a million times, think that given the right instruction could dominate international football alongside Gerrard for years to come. I rate him pretty highly.

If Carrick came back to a Spurs team which had a little bit more grit, better team fitness and a lot more work-rate, movement and organisation he'd be an absolute demon for us.
 

stemark44

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2005
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The annoying things is, that the best midfielder I've seen this season has been Keita at Seville. Who ironically is the player Monchi bought after Berlin turned down their offer for KPB. What is worse is that he only cost 4 million euros. He'd be perfect for us, but i can't see Seville letting him go so soon.

I really have'nt seen that much of Keita to make any comment on his abilities but Juande will need to be a miracle worker if he can turn the Prince into a world class midfielder.(from what I have seen of KPB so far)
At the time it was reported that Seville had offered £2m for KPB until we blew them away with our £5.4m bid.:duh:
 

joey55

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May 20, 2005
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I really have'nt seen that much of Keita to make any comment on his abilities but Juande will need to be a miracle worker if he can turn the Prince into a world class midfielder.(from what I have seen of KPB so far)
At the time it was reported that Seville had offered £2m for KPB until we blew them away with our £5.4m bid.:duh:

This is a clip of a goal he scored against Real Madrid a couple of weeks ago. Aside from the great goal he totally bossed the game and did the same the week before against Valencia. I think he's been the buy of the summer. From what I've seen he's been the best midfielder in La Liga, which is arguably the best league in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFSHLaG8qE
 

Has1978

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,058
37
Yes, I've said so before. However, that was with Jol in charge. Ramos seems to like to play 2 CMs in a more restrictive role. Poulsen and Renato are both essentially DMs and though Keita was the top scoring CM in France last year, from what i've seen of him at Seville, he too is now sitting that bit deeper. This is very much how Scholes and Carrick played at Utd last season and though Carrick did well, he wasn't being asked to run the game in the way he did for us, so wasn't as valuable in that system. I'd guess Ramos would use him in a similar way to Ferguson and therefore I'm not so sure he'd have the same effect. In simple terms, Jol's ideal 442 would look like this:

LW-------Box to Box CM------RW

----------Midfield anchor

Whilst Ramos seems to prefer

LW--------------------------RW
----------CM-----CM

I see Carrick as at his most valuable in the midfield anchor role, where he can dictate the play and protect the back 4, rather than when he is sharing general CM responsibility. So I might not still do the deal, as I'm a huge fan of Berba's and there are many midfielders who can play the way Ramos seems to prefer his CM to play. Basically I'm not sure Carrick has the same value to a Ramos midfield as he does to a Jol midfield.

Fascinating stuff - and I also believe that Carrick is being underused at Utd. You never know, Ramos maybe would see his playmaking potential

The things is, towards the end of the 05-06 season he was adding more facets to his game, such as running from deep (v Utd and Arsenal) and more goal threat.

David Platt once described him as a Rolls Royce player. A very good description: generally smooth but is capable of outperforming pretty much anyone else. I

I know it will probably never happen, but I can dream.
 
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