Cometh the Moment, Cometh the Man...

Discussion in 'Columns' started by Chimbo!, Feb 11, 2007.

  • by Chimbo!, Feb 11, 2007 at 4:42 PM
  • Chimbo!

    Chimbo! Well-Known Member

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    Whilst many of us are distracted by the dreary and abject displays, the pathetic excuses and persistent false hope we forget that our club has come to a crucial moment in its attempt to revive the glory, glory era.

    The path to success is never a smooth one, just ask Alex Ferguson. Before Manchester United's complete dominance in English football during the 1990s Ferguson was one game away from the sack in 1989 when had he lost in the FA Cup 3rd Round the future of Manchester United would have been very different. They were in the relegation zone at the time but they surged up the table to 11th that season and won the FA Cup. You might be wondering what the point of the story is but even the best do not achieve what they set out to do straight away, it takes years of dedication and vision and there are invaraibly hiccups along the way.

    I can not understand our bombardment of criticism at Martin Jol when he has transformed our club from mediocrity to an ambitious and demanding football club. Two years ago we would have been happy wiht a mid-table position and a couple of good cup runs. Now we boo the team if that is all we achieve. We finished 14th almost 3 seasons ago and had an ageing squad of average foreigners. Our squad now boasts 6 England internationals and some of the brightest English talent in the country. When was the last time we had players of the calibre of Lennon, King, Dawson and Defoe in the same team. The transformation undertaken by Jol is a miracle and we should support him through thick and thin.

    No one criticises Keith Burkinshaw for some disappointing league positions when he had the likes of Hoddle, Ardiles, Roberts and Villa in his side. Even the great Bill Nicholson did not consistenly succeed in the league. I feel a sense of perspective is needed; we have to wait and see. The mark of a great man is when he can face adversity and defeat it. Martin Jol is the man to do that; he will achieve success with us. Great managers build their success on the foundations of past failures; we are a young side that will learn from its mistakes and become a force in English football.

    A bit of optimism is all us fans need to have.
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Discussion in 'Columns' started by Chimbo!, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. royboy
    i understand everyone knocking the comparisons with man u, and i agree that it is relatively pointless on the whole to do so, but there is one thing that i feel is relevant to us. man u did not "click" as a unit until the arrival of cantona. they were a talented bunch (most of whom were young), who were capable of good football, but just lacked a little something. i just feel that if we could get a hard nosed captain, then that will add a bit of spine to our youngsters. i just feel that we are directionless at times and need someone to stand up and make everyone else stand up with them.
  2. addyben
    There are some very bizarre posts in this thread......This general debate of "should he stay or should he go" is really pointless. He will be staying until the end of the season at the very least, and to remove him then would be very shortsighted. We have to make do with what we have - JOl is more tactically aware than anyone on this site (unless fergie or whinger are sneaking a cheeky peak) so the advice offered and speculated on is neither here nor there. I suggest we discuss the players, as opposed to the manager, and the possibilities against Fulham on Sunday. Spurs fans are already known as being entirely fickle and quick to knock anything and everyone when things are not going their way. Lets not add fuel to the fire. This weekend is huge.....every fan at Craven Cottage needs to be in full voice and behind the team and Jol - equally everyone listening/watching on tv needs to be sending postive vibes through the airwaves! I am saying 2-0 to the lillywhites.
  3. Wiener
    The word anal springs to mind. "gloom and doom" or "doom and gloom"? I think my intended meaning is pretty clear.

    I agree.
  4. masterblaster80
    2 years ago - who is Jol?
    1 year ago - Jol is a good manager
    6 month ago - best manager since Venables/Burkinshaw etc.
    NOW - Jol is tactically inept and has to go!

    fickle? surely not!

    I'm sticking to the man for the next two years, so preach your doom and gloom, it aint working on me!


    EDIT: Good article BTW, keep the faith mate! :wink:
  5. davidmatzdorf
    Here we go again with the "entitled to their views" - stating the obvious and arguing with a point that has not been made.

    The unarguable fact that they are entitled to their views does not make one bit of difference to whether or not their views are "idiotic and illiterate".

    So why do people just keep on posting this? I think I've seen it 10-20 times over the past couple of months, except that usually it's "entitled to their opinions". No one ever says otherwise. So what does it add to the discussion?
  6. vietnam1973
    yeah not winnings killing me aswell but jesus hes only been in the job for less than 2 full seasons, lets just see what happens, all you jol outers are fuckin unbeleivable, you still gonna want him out if we win the uefa i bet you all shut up then!
  7. bigspurs
    If the manager can't pick the best side (Tanio FFS), can't bring in at least one left winger in two seasons, can't do the bleedin obvious (bring back Routlege), and can't even motivate his team to beat shite like Sheff Utd, then we are no better off than we were before. Last season looks like being a one off. Hows that for optimism!
  8. vietnam1973
    nah were no better off are we no we havent got one of the best english prospects (lennon) a fantastically skillful forward (berbatov) a def which most prem teams would want (king) the england no1 (robinson) a great finisher (defoe) not to mention hudd, dawson chimbonda...solid players,
    were so low in confidence it happens to most teams come on get real would you rather still have sicknote, vega, shite like saaib, tramezzani, berti, acimovic????????
  9. vietnam1973

    tarricco perry doherty thatcher

    etherington clemence freund leonardsen

    Armstrong iversen

    mmmm and were not better off?
  10. se26spurs
    If BMJ himself says todays squad is better than last year, why cant he get it to perform ? If Warnock had the Spurs squad and Jol had the Sheff Utd squad, do you think Warnock would be bleating this morning about the 'fine line' between success and failure ? After 30 months and god knows how many players brought to the club it is a disgrcae to be where we are in the table. Get real ! Wake up ! Warnock or Jewell or Allardyce or O'neill or Coppell or half a dozen other managers would crawl over broken glass to have the money, the opportunities and the squad that Spurs currently have. Or........are the players crap, the squad crap and BMJ is doing a spiffing job with a really crap Club ? You decide .
  11. Wiener
    Tainio is a good player, who played an important role in our good finish last season. Personally I thought Jol chose the right team against Sheffield United.

    I think the so-called left-wing problem is a bit of an irrelevance. That aside, our club has been trying to bring in a quality left-winger. There aren't that many about, and those that exist don't want to, or cannot come.

    Not obvious to me. I am not sure what he would bring us right now, that we don't already have.

    Sheffield United at home have had some good results against good teams. I wasn't there and I haven't seen the highlights, but by all accounts we were a little unlucky to come away with nothing. Obviously it wasn't a good performance by us, but on another day we might have won.

    Best bunch of players we have had for over 10 years.
    Well run and profitable club with a clear and sensible vision.
    A manager who understands the culture and history of the club.

    I think as fans we have more to look forward to than almost any other set of supporters out there.
  12. JuanRebelde
    BMJ out ... why this opinion is absurd

    Spot on and probably the best description of some of the fools who come on this site to post the nonsense they do about getting BMJ out. Whilst we are not building Rome again, we certainly are involved in a project that lasts more than a day.... more like years.

    I believe that football is a game of opinions to use a cliche but the issue with the BMJ out crowd is that is revolves around one issue and that is the balance between outlay over the last 2-3 years and results over the last 5-6 months . So let's look at this a bit closer.

    Firstly, who's money is it and is it affordable to the club? Well the answer is not ours and frankly yes it is clearly affordable. THFC is not Leeds united. Indeed, I suspect if we sold our young prosepcts now who form part of the expenditure we'd more than break even. I give you a Lennon versus SWP scenario where I doubt many would now say that our lad is behind the Chelski one in terms of effectiveness / value these days. So, return on investment in the financial sense is clearly one well addressed by the group that INCLUDES BMJ when signing are made.

    So, it's results that are the issue. Well really the criticism is of our league results as we are still doing well in two cups having beaten some of the best teams in the UEFA cup home and away. We have also progressed nicely in the FA cup but to answer the absurd criticism of some on here, you can only beat who are put before you even if it is Southend.

    The League cup exit was amongst many somewhat expected given our recent record against our neighbours, the real quality of their side (eg 6.3 versus Liverpool and a LC semi-final the year before), the fact that their side includes some of the best young players around anywhere and also the fact that their team has been together as a unit a lot longer than ours as it progresses through the ranks at our neighbours. Only an idiot would discount any of that.

    So, league results it is. Well, BMJ is the man that helped us over-achieved to get us to fifth last season. Firstly if you can over-achieve over 38 games then it clearly isn't over-achievement instead something must have been done right and done right on a regular basis. This would included choice of TACTICS, TEAM, SUBSTITUTIONS ,TRAINING AND MAN-MANAGEMENT. These are things that managers do and that will include our man. So fluke it wasn't. Infact some point to a poor season by the goons as being why we nearly got 4th spot. Well the reply is simple, Everton qualified for CL in 4th with less point than we achieved last season yet we missed out. So if we then say that if we didn't over achieve last year then we are doing abysmally this season we can also answer that.

    Firstly, Carrick, his influence in a key area of the team and for that matter on our style of play. This was a FORCED sale and one that has affected us and for that matter Manure too. We are no longer capable of holding possession and building from the back like last season but curiously Manure are doing this with great effect. Coincidence? no. We are having to develop a new way of playing with the players we have. many of these are young / new to English football.

    Our results have been disappointing in the league on various occasions and indeed we are in the middle of a poor run. However, there are tow types of poor -run.

    The first is where you get relegated eg like West Ham this season (I hope) and the other where the team comes out of it having changed its style and been fortified by the set-backs of previous weeks. We are in the middle of the second type of run. Strangely, and I suspect oddly forgotten by those who know little about Spurs but are the first to slag of BMJ and co, we went through a similar poor run which almost equalled out record when he took over. This included some really dire results.

    Yet, after that run we changed as a side from the negative rubbish that Santini was getting us to play and we then moved up the table and almost qualified for Europe.

    In my time as a Spurs fan (35 years) the best manager is still Burkinshaw. Here is a man that inspite of how we remember him was criticised heavily for his part in our RELEGATION as he was obviously implicated as both coach (to Neal) and then as Manager. BMJ will not get us relegated.

    Then in the old 2nd Div we were drawing 0.0 to rubbish like Mansfield at home or getting hammered by the likes of Charlton in the old second div. Still we presisted with our man. Following a fairly lucky promotion (on goal dfference) we then struggled in the league for a few years and a team including Ardiles, Villa, Hoddle and co got hammered 7.0 at Anfield, 5.0 at Home to the Goons and had a number of other real hammerings on the way until we learnt as a team what was required and success came.

    His success was allowed only because fools like the idiots who come on here that evidently have never been near the business end of a professional football club were ignored and this is what we should do now. History tells us this and this is our history and not that of Ferguson for example.

    My advice to those in the BMJ out crowd is to listen and learn from those who post positive opinons on here because they are clearly better informed and have the capacity to see past a set of negative results in a competition that we haven't even won for 45 years or so.

    I am patient with the BMJ and the club as it is clear to those of us with football knowledge that we are moving forward but I am not patient with those who only offer critcism of the manager and no solutions. Klinsmann, Van Basten nor 'that bloke' from Sevilla are solutions to the problem and probably wouldn't come anyway if they read some of the cr*p posted on here by the BMJ out group.

    Spurs will move forward even if it is next year, we have not 'done and Everton' nor and Ipswich and will end our season as a better side which IS the aim for the project.
  13. JonnySpurs

    Need anyone say much more......well yes, which is why I'm gonna posting my own article today at some point.
  14. vietnam1973
    juanrebelde....two words..........AMEN BROTHER!
  15. easiman
    Agreed, lets move forward together, and support the current set up.
    Uefa Cup and above mid table finish this season.
  16. Azrael
    I'm split on this issue. I feel the following:-

    1. Last year we undoubtedly played above our station. Every team now and again plays beyond the sum of it's parts and, with no cups to worry about, that was certainly the case for us. We should never have expected CL football this year.

    2. The true test of a side is year in, year out challenging for top honours. That takes several years and to expect the finished article after just two seasons is astoundingly naive. Lest we forget that Abramamunch turned up Chelski were still a much stronger side than we are now before. Those who argue that financial investment alone is what should be producing results are kidding themselves.

    3. Players like Keane, Defoe, Zakora, Robinson and Jenas should habe a good look at themselves. These are players who should be performing at the top level every week, come what may, not going on runs of good form for a few months and then phoning in average attempts for the rest of the year. If we are going to operate squad rotation like the big sides then we need people to come off the bench and perform at the hughest level, even if they've been out of the team for a few weeks.

    4. Notwithstanding the above, I do have some concerns about Jol's tactical decisions in view of the squad of players we currently have. I also believe that he has focused for too much on the cup runs at the expense of league. A few months ago I got slaughtered on here for suggesting that, for the sake of progress, a good league finish was far more important this season that a cup. My case for this was that the side was not yet ready to perform at the highest level in all four competitions. Are people looking at the league table now really going to tell me I'm wrong? If we continue on the same road of form we're on then we could even be dabbling with the relegation sides. Do we really want to finish the season with any hopes of European footbal next year vested in whether or not we win the FA or UEFA Cup? That's a huge risk and one which longer term fans like me know has less chance of coming to fruition for us, even with a couple of good cup runs.

    I say with give Jol until the end of next season (subject to a real messy start to next season) and see what happens. If he doesn't deliver then alas we must again start to think about using Tottenham's revolving door.
  17. N10toN17
    Could the people on here who want Martin Jol out, please name me an English football club that has had success on a regular basis, season after season, lifting silverware, on a club policy of hiring and firing coaches/managers on a regular basis?
  18. koume2
    my dream (DREAM!) spurs team to challenge for honors......


    Chimbonda Dawson King G.BARRY

    Lennon K.NOLAN Jenas M.G.PEDERSEN

    Defoe Berbatov

    how solid & well balanced is that.
  19. dontcallme
    Early nomination for post of the year. Jol and the team is going through a tough time and as fans we are obviously beyond frustration.

    With all the extra games and changes to the first team i was expecting to not perform as well in the league this season but we should be doing better than we are.

    This does not mean you sack the manager.
  20. Coyboy
    It's a shame that you even have to write this article. The thing that I have noticed is that out of all these Jol out posts or ones that imply as much, I haven't seen a possible replacement. Hoddle, Graham and Pleat are out of work why not try them? Oh no been there. My bro and Dad are Everton fans and I never heard them screaming Moyes out last season when they were in a similar situation, I think they lost 4 nil three times in a row to Villa West Brom and someone else. We all say we have the best fans in the league, well some of fans qualify thus but some qualify as the worst.

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