Cometh the Moment, Cometh the Man...

infamousyiddo

Active Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,182
#41
Robinson

Chimbonda, Dawson, Rocha, Ekotto

Tainio, Jenas, Zokora, Malbranque

Keane, Berbatov


this was the starting XI vs sheff utd at the weekend. Of that eleven SIX outfield players are in their first full season of the premiership.

Teemu and JJ are still getting there way to full fitness following injuries and illness.

im as unhappy as the next spurs fan but come on!!! No matter what way we look at it, we have many new players and its has taken time for them to get used to the prem and gel as a team.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
978
#43
It's a shame that you even have to write this article. The thing that I have noticed is that out of all these Jol out posts or ones that imply as much, I haven't seen a possible replacement. Hoddle, Graham and Pleat are out of work why not try them? Oh no been there. My bro and Dad are Everton fans and I never heard them screaming Moyes out last season when they were in a similar situation, I think they lost 4 nil three times in a row to Villa West Brom and someone else. We all say we have the best fans in the league, well some of fans qualify thus but some qualify as the worst.

What's that phrase about a nail and hitting it on the head........ well that's what you've done! :clap:
 

Hartfelt

New Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
402
#44
I think the main issue is simply would removing Jol be any better for the club? A revolving door policy for managers encourages turmoil. It also presupposes that a better candidate exists. I defy anyone to propose a replacement that would realistically come/be able to come to Tottenham and produce better results.

I wanted I O'Neill. He wasn't available. We got Santini. Then we got Jol. I think he's been adequate. I won't call for his head until I see evidence that he's bad for the club. At the moment I'm undecided; this has been a poor season, but last season looked promising. Balance is everything.

There is very little excuse for the way we've been playing. A huge investment has been made in the team. It's the most talented side since the 1980s. Carrick went with the club's blessing. New players were added. Despite this the midfield remains a disharmonious mess. Jol appears to be unable to make it work. Irrespective of where we finish this season, (9th looks likely), to me it's Jol's response to the midfield problem over the next few weeks which will show just how much of a manager he really is.

This season has been wearying...like so many others. We're starting to look like Newcastle. When Ledley comes all will be well - except that we've missed out on Euro qualification bar a cup miracle. If next season is as poor as this one Jol will be shown the door and we'll be back to square one. I envy United and the Scum. Steady as she goes. If only.
 
Joined
May 23, 2004
Messages
9,377
#45
Robinson

Chimbonda, Dawson, Rocha, Ekotto

Tainio, Jenas, Zokora, Malbranque

Keane, Berbatov


this was the starting XI vs sheff utd at the weekend. Of that eleven SIX outfield players are in their first full season of the premiership.

Teemu and JJ are still getting there way to full fitness following injuries and illness.

im as unhappy as the next spurs fan but come on!!! No matter what way we look at it, we have many new players and its has taken time for them to get used to the prem and gel as a team.
Oh come on, can we please get past the "foreigners need to gel and get used to the Prem" crap? Granted it happens to some players, but six of them in one starting 11 alone? Come on pal. You don't see that happening en masse over such a long period when Arse, Manure or Chelski sign some foreigners. At most they suffer is one or two not coming good for a while.
 

barry

Poch love
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
3,184
#46
What about Alladyce, coppel, jewell, the seville manager, or even the getafte manager. I think they could all do a job.
I like Jol as a person, and i really wanna give him time, but i'm afraid that if he doesn't get it right soon, they'll be a mass exodus of tottenham players, and he'd have fucked up our golden generation. This is probably the worst case scenario.
Can anyone tell me when the time is right to call for his head. We've been playing poor disjointed football for 2 seasons now. We were lucky last season. I recall alot of people saying 'the sign of a good club is to win while playing poorly'. That tells me we played poorly alot last season. This season we've been playing poorly again but the results haven't come. I haven't seen many signs of improvement.
I've given Jol time. 2 seasons is a long time in football. If the team were playing well or improving every week, but losing or drawing unluckily, I could just about accept it safe in the knowledge that we'll come good, but we're not.
A good manager with good players shouldn't need 2 seasons to make a team good.
Sometimes a good manager just can't get it right with a certain club for what ever reasons. Look at cappello at madrid, or Curbishley at West Ham(not good, but did an adequate job at Charlton).
I really hope I'm wrong, because I like Jol alot and think he gives my beloved spurs a good face nationally and internationally. Please prove me wrong Mr Jol.
 

llamafarmer

One of Spursking's African boys
Joined
May 4, 2004
Messages
10,776
#49
Good article that man. Most important point for me is that we have dumped managers in the past without giving them time, I truly believe we now have a good one and we should give him a fair crack of the whip. You don't build a great side in a year without a bent Russian billionaire!
 

Wiener

SC Supporter
Joined
Jun 24, 2005
Messages
1,096
#50
You are indeed a Wiener by name and a Wiener by nature!
I know.

Personal insults aside, my intention was certainly not to offend you. We are all spurs fans and we all want the same thing in the end. I just thought your criticism of the club and manager was rather harsh, and I don't really understand how you can justify it.

I think our attitude (i.e. as spurs fans) does make a difference. There is a fine line between success and failure, and having the fans on board during the difficult times will help us in the long run. Therefore if you are going to criticise, make it constructive.

Anyway, as I said we are all in it together, wieners included.

COYS
 

Coyboy

The Double of 1961 is still The Double
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Messages
14,443
#51
What's that phrase about a nail and hitting it on the head........ well that's what you've done! :clap:

Cheers mate, not as detailed as your above post but I get so mad that I can't concentrate on a long post refuting such nonsense without putting my head through a window.
 

Riandor

COB Founder
Joined
May 26, 2004
Messages
7,856
#52
Well... the result was poor. I was sick and angry, but shouting that MJ should be sacked is a bigger insult than the performance.

Forget a left winger, that is not our reason for losing, I don't remember us having one last season and we finished where?

We are missing a leader, pure and simple. Someone who leads by example.

Someone qouted Cantona as being the reason MAN UTD finally clicked back in the 90's, I think he and Keane were the main reason Man UTD achieved. Their youngsters could play with the confidence required as these 2 would play their hearts out week in and week out and would sometimes singlehandedly drag their team across the proverbial finish line.

For Arsenal it was again a combo of Vierra and Henry.

Chelsea - Makelele... look how they have struggled without him (and recently Terry), yes their so called blip has left them struggling in 2nd (nice dilemma) but still.

Where do we have that kind of player? King in defence is a must at present, he is skilled, calm and just plain good. Berbatov has the potential to be like Henry, different style of player, but in terms of the quality up front, he is class.

It is purely in midfield that we still do not have the Keane, Makalele, Vierra player. No one and I mean NO ONE in a spurs shirt grabs the opposition and says: "Oi, this is our 3pts FFS, who the hell do you think you are?!"

Davids did that, yes he was beyond his best, but he was an example and harried the opposition, roughed them up and just plainly got in their face. This forces the other team to make mistakes which our flair players can THEN capitalise on.

In short ladies and gentleman, we still need a central midfield signing. Either that or Zakora has some serious progression to make. He might still come good.. there are plenty of examples of players not making a good impression in their first season, so anyone who says it isn't excuse is simply wrong (sorry).

Sort the middle out, win the ball there and do not rely on our defence to retrieve 100% of the balls.

The trick is to find that sort of player who will come to a non top 4 club. That is Commoli's task and hopefully we will get there.

If anyone says last year was a one off, why not this season? Who is to say that last year is our true potential and that we have blipped this year due to new signings and increased amount of games and pressure from fans?

Only time will tell... I believe us Spurs fans have waited a long time to get where we are now, you saying we can't wait that little bit more?!

R.
 

masterblaster80

Trolling expert
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
1,014
#53
What about Alladyce, coppel, jewell, the seville manager, or even the getafte manager. I think they could all do a job.
I like Jol as a person, and i really wanna give him time, but i'm afraid that if he doesn't get it right soon, they'll be a mass exodus of tottenham players, and he'd have fucked up our golden generation. This is probably the worst case scenario.
Can anyone tell me when the time is right to call for his head. We've been playing poor disjointed football for 2 seasons now. We were lucky last season. I recall alot of people saying 'the sign of a good club is to win while playing poorly'. That tells me we played poorly alot last season. This season we've been playing poorly again but the results haven't come. I haven't seen many signs of improvement.
I've given Jol time. 2 seasons is a long time in football. If the team were playing well or improving every week, but losing or drawing unluckily, I could just about accept it safe in the knowledge that we'll come good, but we're not.
A good manager with good players shouldn't need 2 seasons to make a team good.
Sometimes a good manager just can't get it right with a certain club for what ever reasons. Look at cappello at madrid, or Curbishley at West Ham(not good, but did an adequate job at Charlton).
I really hope I'm wrong, because I like Jol alot and think he gives my beloved spurs a good face nationally and internationally. Please prove me wrong Mr Jol.
What guarantee can you give that a "mass exodus" of players will happen if Jol doesn't right the wrongs? and what guarantee can you give that the same scenario doesn't happen with a new manager?

appointing a new manager will just restart the cycle all over again, he'll want his own staff, both playing and non-playing, then th team has to adapt to the new manager's philosophy, another year for consolidation, and if he f*cks up, we'll all be here having the same arguments

so what if we finish 10th? its a disappointment, yes, but with sticking with Jol and allowing him time to fix those wrong, we can move forward next season with a very important lesson well learnt!
 

barry

Poch love
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
3,184
#54
What guarantee can you give that a "mass exodus" of players will happen if Jol doesn't right the wrongs? and what guarantee can you give that the same scenario doesn't happen with a new manager?

appointing a new manager will just restart the cycle all over again, he'll want his own staff, both playing and non-playing, then th team has to adapt to the new manager's philosophy, another year for consolidation, and if he f*cks up, we'll all be here having the same arguments

so what if we finish 10th? its a disappointment, yes, but with sticking with Jol and allowing him time to fix those wrong, we can move forward next season with a very important lesson well learnt!
true brother, I understand your point but when do you cut your losses. There are no guarantees or even signs at the moment that Jol will make us better.
I just can't see us improving with each game. We usually play poorly for 70mins in any given game. We have quality players, but they never justify it on the pitch. why? For me the blame has to lie with Jol.
If we got a new manager now, rather than in a years time, he would have a year longer to work with the squad.
Look at Wenger, he only took a year.
I really just don't believe Jol has the ability to fix Spurs. I hope he proves me wrong
 

Jonesey

Active Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
656
#55
I agree with everything you say except I think we should also question Comolli's abilities to scout and bring in the players we need.

Bolton always seem to be able to turn up quality unknown footballers as well as well-known, experienced players who can come in and contribute to the team during league games.

Even ignoring our lack of left wingers, we need to sign some players who can do the same next season as, sadly, this season's league challenge is pretty much over.

My other gripe is about our fitness. Why is it that every week we look knackered in the last 30 minutes when the opposition always look like they could play on for another half an hour? If we're such a young team - an excuse which, frankly, is beginning to wear thin - this should not be the case.
 

barry

Poch love
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
3,184
#56
Spot on and probably the best description of some of the fools who come on this site to post the nonsense they do about getting BMJ out. Whilst we are not building Rome again, we certainly are involved in a project that lasts more than a day.... more like years.

I believe that football is a game of opinions to use a cliche but the issue with the BMJ out crowd is that is revolves around one issue and that is the balance between outlay over the last 2-3 years and results over the last 5-6 months . So let's look at this a bit closer.

Firstly, who's money is it and is it affordable to the club? Well the answer is not ours and frankly yes it is clearly affordable. THFC is not Leeds united. Indeed, I suspect if we sold our young prosepcts now who form part of the expenditure we'd more than break even. I give you a Lennon versus SWP scenario where I doubt many would now say that our lad is behind the Chelski one in terms of effectiveness / value these days. So, return on investment in the financial sense is clearly one well addressed by the group that INCLUDES BMJ when signing are made.

So, it's results that are the issue. Well really the criticism is of our league results as we are still doing well in two cups having beaten some of the best teams in the UEFA cup home and away. We have also progressed nicely in the FA cup but to answer the absurd criticism of some on here, you can only beat who are put before you even if it is Southend.

The League cup exit was amongst many somewhat expected given our recent record against our neighbours, the real quality of their side (eg 6.3 versus Liverpool and a LC semi-final the year before), the fact that their side includes some of the best young players around anywhere and also the fact that their team has been together as a unit a lot longer than ours as it progresses through the ranks at our neighbours. Only an idiot would discount any of that.

So, league results it is. Well, BMJ is the man that helped us over-achieved to get us to fifth last season. Firstly if you can over-achieve over 38 games then it clearly isn't over-achievement instead something must have been done right and done right on a regular basis. This would included choice of TACTICS, TEAM, SUBSTITUTIONS ,TRAINING AND MAN-MANAGEMENT. These are things that managers do and that will include our man. So fluke it wasn't. Infact some point to a poor season by the goons as being why we nearly got 4th spot. Well the reply is simple, Everton qualified for CL in 4th with less point than we achieved last season yet we missed out. So if we then say that if we didn't over achieve last year then we are doing abysmally this season we can also answer that.

Firstly, Carrick, his influence in a key area of the team and for that matter on our style of play. This was a FORCED sale and one that has affected us and for that matter Manure too. We are no longer capable of holding possession and building from the back like last season but curiously Manure are doing this with great effect. Coincidence?.....eh no. We are having to develop a new way of playing with the players we have. many of these are young / new to English football.

Our results have been disappointing in the league on various occasions and indeed we are in the middle of a poor run. However, there are tow types of poor -run.

The first is where you get relegated eg like West Ham this season (I hope) and the other where the team comes out of it having changed its style and been fortified by the set-backs of previous weeks. We are in the middle of the second type of run. Strangely, and I suspect oddly forgotten by those who know little about Spurs but are the first to slag of BMJ and co, we went through a similar poor run which almost equalled out record when he took over. This included some really dire results.

Yet, after that run we changed as a side from the negative rubbish that Santini was getting us to play and we then moved up the table and almost qualified for Europe.

In my time as a Spurs fan (35 years) the best manager is still Burkinshaw. Here is a man that inspite of how we remember him was criticised heavily for his part in our RELEGATION as he was obviously implicated as both coach (to Neal) and then as Manager. BMJ will not get us relegated.

Then in the old 2nd Div we were drawing 0.0 to rubbish like Mansfield at home or getting hammered by the likes of Charlton in the old second div. Still we presisted with our man. Following a fairly lucky promotion (on goal dfference) we then struggled in the league for a few years and a team including Ardiles, Villa, Hoddle and co got hammered 7.0 at Anfield, 5.0 at Home to the Goons and had a number of other real hammerings on the way until we learnt as a team what was required and success came.

His success was allowed only because fools like the idiots who come on here that evidently have never been near the business end of a professional football club were ignored and this is what we should do now. History tells us this and this is our history and not that of Ferguson for example.

My advice to those in the BMJ out crowd is to listen and learn from those who post positive opinons on here because they are clearly better informed and have the capacity to see past a set of negative results in a competition that we haven't even won for 45 years or so.

I am patient with the BMJ and the club as it is clear to those of us with football knowledge that we are moving forward but I am not patient with those who only offer critcism of the manager and no solutions. Klinsmann, Van Basten nor 'that bloke' from Sevilla are solutions to the problem and probably wouldn't come anyway if they read some of the cr*p posted on here by the BMJ out group.

Spurs will move forward even if it is next year, we have not 'done and Everton' nor and Ipswich and will end our season as a better side which IS the aim for the project.
:clap: nicely written. Eventhough I'm still unconvinced by Jol, this was a well thought out counter argument to the jol out brigade.
 
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
955
#57
Forget a left winger, that is not our reason for losing, I don't remember us having one last season and we finished where?

We are missing a leader, pure and simple. Someone who leads by example.

Where do we have that kind of player? Kinf in defence is a must at present, he is skilled, calm and just plain good. Berbatov has the potential to be like Henry, different style of player, but in terms of the quality up front, he is class.

It is purely in midfield that we still do not have the Keane, Makalele, Vierra player. No one and I mean NO ONE in a spurs shirt grabs the opposition and says: "Oi, this is our 3pts FFS, who the hell do you think you are?!"

Davids did that, yes he was beyond his best, but he was an example and harried the opposition, roughed them up and just plainly got in their face. This forces the other team to make mistakes which our flair players can THEN capitalise on.

In short ladies and gentleman, we still need a central midfield signing. Either that or Zakora has some serious progression to make. He might still come good.. there are plenty of examples of players not making a good impression in their first season, so anyone who says it isn't excuse is simply wrong (sorry).

Sort the middle out, win the ball there and do not rely on our defence to retrieve 100% of the balls.

The trick is to find that sort of player who will come to a non top 4 club. That is Commoli's task and hopefully we will get there.

Only time will tell... I believe us Spurs fans have waited a long time to get where we are now, you saying we can't wait that little bit more?!

R.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
 

masterblaster80

Trolling expert
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
1,014
#58
true brother, I understand your point but when do you cut your losses. There are no guarantees or even signs at the moment that Jol will make us better.
I just can't see us improving with each game. We usually play poorly for 70mins in any given game. We have quality players, but they never justify it on the pitch. why? For me the blame has to lie with Jol.
If we got a new manager now, rather than in a years time, he would have a year longer to work with the squad.
Look at Wenger, he only took a year.
I really just don't believe Jol has the ability to fix Spurs. I hope he proves me wrong
Wait till the end of next season, if, by then, we're still mid table, not in europe or fail to win a cup, then i'll say Jol's taken us as far as he can.

there is where i draw the line.

does waiting another season that bad? hosnetly, whats the worst that can happen?
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
883
#59
What i can't understand is the relationship between
Jol and Commoli ! I hear that Commoli buys the players
and Jol plays them ? I can fully understand the youth
recruitment for the stars of the future so would that be
between Com and allen ? As for picking players who will
do battle in the here and now,then Jol and Commoli
should deliberate over this matter,i mean it has to be
more than, for example (Jol) I need a left winger,(Com) let
me see what i can do .Eek From my imagination Commoli
shows jol a list/dvd and they decide if the player is available
and then Com consults with Levy about the price and availability.If this is the case then it would make sense,
but if Com and levy decide and jol has just asked for
a centre back and they come back and say yep just
got you one!! It's like when your mum bought you. some crappy trainers which nobody wears and says they
look good on you ,but you know youll never be seen dead in
them,then it must be frustrating being in Jol's position.

Then shouldn't Jol have the say in who he wants and
they come back to him and say whether it's possible
or impossible.
 

Parmenio

New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
243
#60
I am patient with the BMJ and the club as it is clear to those of us with football knowledge that we are moving forward but I am not patient with those who only offer critcism of the manager and no solutions. Klinsmann, Van Basten nor 'that bloke' from Sevilla are solutions to the problem and probably wouldn't come anyway if they read some of the cr*p posted on here by the BMJ out group.

Spurs will move forward even if it is next year, we have not 'done and Everton' nor and Ipswich and will end our season as a better side which IS the aim for the project.
Fantastic post! Spot on.
 
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