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Defining moments

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
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He's doing things right (very right) but only up to a point. Is that becasue he's taken the players as far as they can go? Is it becasue we still lack that final piece or two? As I say, I believe he's the right man for the job, but he needs to be backed this summer, he has more than earnt it. All other managers get buckets of cash so it is comparing apples with oranges until he gets his fair share spent in the market. Then if we only get to semi finals and runners up there is a conversation to be had about whether he is the right man for the job to push us over that edge.

Don’t matter how much he is backed if Man City go spend another £250 mill. It will just be a case of hoping we suffer less injuries at crucial times, and we get off to a flyer in what might be 4 straight away games, and we don’t suffer any early nerves when we do get back to the new lane.
 

Klinsmannesque

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2013
900
4,665
Don’t matter how much he is backed if Man City go spend another £250 mill. It will just be a case of hoping we suffer less injuries at crucial times, and we get off to a flyer in what might be 4 straight away games, and we don’t suffer any early nerves when we do get back to the new lane.
But I’m not talking about just the league. We’ve fallen short against both United and Chelsea in semi finals, and a Juventus team we really should have beaten. Missing out on the league to Man City I can accept when their resources and players are light years ahead of ours. But this seasons short comings weren’t because of City, they’ve blown everyone away.

Getting top 4 is great, and as I keep saying, I think Poch is great. But winnable moments have been missed and we need something extra to get over the line in certain circumstances. Whether that is because Poch needs to smarten up with his in game management or whether he can’t because he’s not got the tools at his disposable is debatable. But give him the tools to find out.

I don’t think that’s an unfair critique of our current situation
 

shelfboy68

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2008
14,566
19,651
With all the criticism aimed at the club including the stuff Kane has had to endure the Utd under fergie or Chelsea under mourhino, would use this to their advantage by creating a siege mentality but we tend to let these moments define us and create a stereotype view of us.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
But I’m not talking about just the league. We’ve fallen short against both United and Chelsea in semi finals, and a Juventus team we really should have beaten. Missing out on the league to Man City I can accept when their resources and players are light years ahead of ours. But this seasons short comings weren’t because of City, they’ve blown everyone away.

Getting top 4 is great, and as I keep saying, I think Poch is great. But winnable moments have been missed and we need something extra to get over the line in certain circumstances. Whether that is because Poch needs to smarten up with his in game management or whether he can’t because he’s not got the tools at his disposable is debatable. But give him the tools to find out.

I don’t think that’s an unfair critique of our current situation

That comes down to maturity and experience though not just spending money, we were knocked out by teams who have the know how to win knock out matches and have managers there that have been there and done that. Our big game mentality is steadily improving year on year and I expect it to get better and I expect Poch to learn from it, I just don't think it's all about spending money it's a learning experience.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
But I’m not talking about just the league. We’ve fallen short against both United and Chelsea in semi finals, and a Juventus team we really should have beaten. Missing out on the league to Man City I can accept when their resources and players are light years ahead of ours. But this seasons short comings weren’t because of City, they’ve blown everyone away.

Getting top 4 is great, and as I keep saying, I think Poch is great. But winnable moments have been missed and we need something extra to get over the line in certain circumstances. Whether that is because Poch needs to smarten up with his in game management or whether he can’t because he’s not got the tools at his disposable is debatable. But give him the tools to find out.

I don’t think that’s an unfair critique of our current situation

every team you mention have players and managers that have been there before, and with Chelsea and Man U they at the time of beating us have bigger squads on massive wages and were having better seasons than us in the league. Juventus have been playing in the CL for ever and had reached the CL Final 2 out of the last 3 seasons, and only beat us because we didn't get the goals needed when we were on top.

there is no guarantee any player we sign still manages to score those chances. what we need to do is cut the errors out that cost us the goals. silly free kicks on the edge of the area and Chelsea scored 2 goals 1 in the FA Cup, and 1 in the league. Trippier passing to Dembele when he was closely marked, and Dembele getting so easily bullied, Vorm try using your feet instead of trying to get down with your hands, and the goal that Dybala scored, Sanchez shouldn't of followed his man. trouble is Poch might tell them what they need to try and avoid doing, but he doesn't have a remote control that stops them.

To be honest I am proud of where we are now, yes I would love to win a trophy or 2, win the league would be my dream, but unfortunately I have to say it, I don't think we are the luckiest team when it comes to just getting that little bit of extra luck that's needed. if you had told me 5years ago that over 3 seasons we would only concede more than 2 goals 3 times in the league, we would finish the season with every top stat, and still not win the league, I'd of called the men in white coats to come and pick you up ASAP
 

Klinsmannesque

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2013
900
4,665
every team you mention have players and managers that have been there before, and with Chelsea and Man U they at the time of beating us have bigger squads on massive wages and were having better seasons than us in the league. Juventus have been playing in the CL for ever and had reached the CL Final 2 out of the last 3 seasons, and only beat us because we didn't get the goals needed when we were on top.

there is no guarantee any player we sign still manages to score those chances. what we need to do is cut the errors out that cost us the goals. silly free kicks on the edge of the area and Chelsea scored 2 goals 1 in the FA Cup, and 1 in the league. Trippier passing to Dembele when he was closely marked, and Dembele getting so easily bullied, Vorm try using your feet instead of trying to get down with your hands, and the goal that Dybala scored, Sanchez shouldn't of followed his man. trouble is Poch might tell them what they need to try and avoid doing, but he doesn't have a remote control that stops them.

To be honest I am proud of where we are now, yes I would love to win a trophy or 2, win the league would be my dream, but unfortunately I have to say it, I don't think we are the luckiest team when it comes to just getting that little bit of extra luck that's needed. if you had told me 5years ago that over 3 seasons we would only concede more than 2 goals 3 times in the league, we would finish the season with every top stat, and still not win the league, I'd of called the men in white coats to come and pick you up ASAP

I think you are missing my original point made back in the thread. It was exactly as you said, we've fallen short because of naivety. I said that could be put at the feet of Poch, and his in game management where we've been in solid positions but for one reason or another we've not seen it through. But I also went on to say maybe he feels he doesn't have the resources to make changes that influence a game.

I can't remember many occasions where his actions in a game has altered its direction to be honest. Yes individual errors have cost us, but hindsight is 20/20. Take Juve for example. 60min is a magical mark for a lot of managers where they will make a change to control the last 30. We are ahead, looking good - perhaps that was time to introduce someone like Wanyama and drop Dier to the back and set up solidly. 65mins they score twice in 4 mins and it kills us. Again, hindsight is great however where most act to influence a game he does not.

We never change how we play. We have Llorente on the bench and when he comes on we play exactly the same way. Don't use his strongest asset (and Trippiers for that matter). Look at the havoc the likes of Crouch and Carroll cause.

Just a couple of examples. That is why I am saying lets give him the tools to not have an excuse. We don't need to go out and have a net spend of £250m as we have a great group of players, but lets look at 1 or two proper players rather than those with potential (granted Poch and Levy has got us to the point where we can do that).

Levy says the stadium is ringfenced away from transfers and we have had 2 years (possibly 3) of CL revenue give the manager what he wants.

Don't look at this as Poch bashing, it's more this one of the very few areas where I feel Poch needs to improve, so lets help him get us over the line in big games.
 

Disconosebleed

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2005
2,553
2,569
I don't think we should be too fatalistic about our chances with relation to the spending power of City, United and the rest. That gives them a huge helping hand, obviously, but it is worth bearing in mind that, even if we can't necessarily expect to beat those sort of teams consistently, what we can aim for is an extraordinary level of consistency against the weaker teams in the league. There are 84 points to play for against the teams outside the top 6, that is 28 games which we go into as favourites.

I know this is grossly simplifying things, but those are games we 'should' be winning, and if you take them in isolation there isn't any reason we shouldn't win the vast majority of them, if we're constantly on our game and get a bit of luck with injuries. Of course it's easier said than done - I'm not being blasé about this, and we have to accept that we're just as susceptible to an off day as anyone else - but my point stands; if we are relentlessly consistent against the weaker sides in the league, teams we should be beating, we can put ourselves in with a shot of winning the league without having to put emphasis on the games where we aren't favourites.
 

WiganSpur

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
15,974
32,682
If we keep knocking on the door, eventually it will open......
That's probably the way I see it.

But the crucial thing is we have to keep knocking on the door. This is why finishing in the top 4 now is so important so we can keep the high calibre of players and manager that we have now.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
I think you are missing my original point made back in the thread. It was exactly as you said, we've fallen short because of naivety. I said that could be put at the feet of Poch, and his in game management where we've been in solid positions but for one reason or another we've not seen it through. But I also went on to say maybe he feels he doesn't have the resources to make changes that influence a game.

I can't remember many occasions where his actions in a game has altered its direction to be honest. Yes individual errors have cost us, but hindsight is 20/20. Take Juve for example. 60min is a magical mark for a lot of managers where they will make a change to control the last 30. We are ahead, looking good - perhaps that was time to introduce someone like Wanyama and drop Dier to the back and set up solidly. 65mins they score twice in 4 mins and it kills us. Again, hindsight is great however where most act to influence a game he does not.

We never change how we play. We have Llorente on the bench and when he comes on we play exactly the same way. Don't use his strongest asset (and Trippiers for that matter). Look at the havoc the likes of Crouch and Carroll cause.

Just a couple of examples. That is why I am saying lets give him the tools to not have an excuse. We don't need to go out and have a net spend of £250m as we have a great group of players, but lets look at 1 or two proper players rather than those with potential (granted Poch and Levy has got us to the point where we can do that).

Levy says the stadium is ringfenced away from transfers and we have had 2 years (possibly 3) of CL revenue give the manager what he wants.

Don't look at this as Poch bashing, it's more this one of the very few areas where I feel Poch needs to improve, so lets help him get us over the line in big games.

last season we won more points from losing positions than any other team, this season not so good, but most of our loses this season bar Man C, have been caused due to errors or hit at sucker punch moments, Chelsea silly free kick, then complete balls up by Lloris. Spam in the cup, 2 quick goals before the 60 min mark and another soon after. Man U goal in the dying mins hard to recover, Arscum 2 quick goals just before halftime, Leicester 2 first half goals, 1st a worldie 2nd on the stroke of halftime. both Man C games just totally outplayed, Juve yes he could of made changes on the 60th min mark, but considering at the 60th min mark we never looked in danger until Juve made their 2 changes on 60th min, and the ball hardly going out of play between their subs, and the 2 goals.

I totally agree if your going to have Llorente on the pitch you need to play to his strengths, and the only time we seemed to do so was RM away
 

Grapo2001

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2011
3,700
5,957
As if we’re getting rid of Poch

I actually disagree that we’re genuinely competing for trophies. We got further in champions league with redknapp and he lost two fa cup semi finals too. Sure, we’re doing better in league but yet never were realistically in shooting distance of the title any season.

Yet we play better football, we have developed a younger, better squad and we’re maintaining that level while moving ground. For that reason, i’d cling to Poch till he decides to leave. There’s no one better for us right now, we are in a unique situation. Proven winner will want guarantees we can’t give, for one

We win more games under Poch but we don’t play better football. The football under Redknapp was some of the best in the last 30 years.
 

lukespurs7

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2006
4,833
4,259
We win more games under Poch but we don’t play better football. The football under Redknapp was some of the best in the last 30 years.
I actually agree but you need to change your wording to ‘nicer’ or more ‘attractive’ football. That team when on form blew teams away with bale Lennon Modric VDV and Crouch or Pav Up top. But under Poch we play much ‘better’ more consistent football hence why we conrol
Games more our stats are better and we’ve finished higher in the league with more points with Poch.
 
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