Didier Zokora tonight

Discussion in 'Spurs Chat' started by stakesishigh, Oct 1, 2007.

  1. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I think doubleO is referring to your fickle allegiance. Robinson gets your support in is hour of "wank"...ehhm sorry need. But Zokora is a "pile of wank" in his.

    Why does the woeful Robinson, who is statiscally one of the worst at his job earn your unswerving support but a pretty consistant player who was playing his first season in a tougher foreign league and equiping himself pretty well not ?
     
  2. Stoof

    Stoof Immortal Hero of the Transfer and ITK Forums Staff

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    Well because I happen to think Paul Robinson is actually a pretty good player. As does Pleat, Santini, Jol, Arnesen, Comolli, Wenger, Eriksson, McClaren and Venables. And hit the ground running as a Spurs player. From my point of view, this is a low point for Robbo, surrounded (in his entire Spurs career) by high points.

    Zokora is playing well at the moment. This is surrounded (in his entire Spurs career) by low points.

    Yet again, can we not see the main reason for this is: Carrick was better for us than Zokora is.

    It's not fucking brain science is it. Jesus H. Christ.

    In your selective statistics anything's what you want it to be. Which is why the only ones I pay attention to are to do with strikers and the number of goals they score.

    Not how many sideways passes to Chimbonda or how quick he can go 0-60mph on a wet track with the new Pirellis in.
     
  3. AW?

    AW? Formerly known as *******Who?

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    Would Zokora make it into any of the top four teams? No he wouldn't so he's not good enough. Lennon would and now also Bale i believe, which leaves our middle of midfield which is not up to it i'm afraid and this was bloody obvious from last season. Anybody on here with half a brain could see this and it was often mentioned. Jenas is a good squad player for me but we need better to come in.
     
  4. leetotty

    leetotty Member

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    yeah at the beginning of the season Zokora wouldn't make it into any top 4 squad. But at the moment his current form is better than Sissoko, Carrick and better than what Mikel and Diarra have ever shown, so by the end of the season he just might be good enough. I think in general people should try and keep an open mind on players, especially foreign players as they can improve quite dramtically over time, maybe Zokora will fall into that category.
     
  5. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Robinson seemed Ok when he arrived because he replaced Keller. His "bad spell" has actually lasted about two seasons.
    When does that become "actually he's not that great" for you.

    He can't catch a ball. He is hopeless at crosses. he can't save shots. His positioning is poor. His decision making is terrible (Kaboul screaming at him v Liv). he adversely affects the defenders.

    It's not brain science. It's just fucking football science. A science you are blissfully ignorant of it would seem.

    Frankly, stoof, you are just biased in the way you apply your critique of players.
     
  6. AW?

    AW? Formerly known as *******Who?

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    You may have a point, but i'm seriously losing faith in the bloke to be honest. I really don't think his last few games have been particularly exceptional, people seem to be getting carried away a little in my eyes. Yes he's looked slightly better. Better than being completely useless so i'll give you that.

    Carrick hasn't looked at his best i agree, but i know who i'd rather have in our starting line up. Diarra is a lot younger than Zokora as is Mikel and they have yet to fulfill their potential. Sissokos dip in form is hardly anything to worry Pool at the moment, i mean look at all the other midfielders they have in their squad.
     
  7. Stoof

    Stoof Immortal Hero of the Transfer and ITK Forums Staff

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    Stop being a hypocritical fool. It's embarrassing.

    You level the same sort of things against Robinson that I have (more justifiedly) at Zokora - yet you continue to present your side of events as the truth and that I'm not being even-handed. Do you even read what you've just posted; how hypocritical is it?

    It's like arguing with a wall. I've conceded ground, not the argument, but I've backtracked as far as I'm going to go (which admittedly isn't very far). But how you can say that Dider Zokora has done more for us than any of Robinson, Lee, Stalteri, Chimbonda, Dawson, King, Jenas, Tainio, Malbranque, Huddlestone, Ghaly, Keane, Berbatov, Defoe is completely beyond me. He hasn't been that great. If you're trying to say he's not shit - I agree with you. He's not shit. That doesn't by some reverse proof mean he's great.

    So stop reading what you want to, strap on the ol' reading glasses and just read it, mate.

    You're not going to convince me he's our best midfielder, because he's plainly not. I don't know what you're trying to achieve? You seem to quote my opinions of a handful of matches where he was useless as the standard for my assessment of him. That's not the case. But whatever glorifies your post, you choose.

    Leave it be. I have.

    And for the last time (in bold): Carrick for us was better than Zokora is. Dispute that.
     
  8. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Where have I ever said this:

    But how you can say that Dider Zokora has done more for us than any of Robinson, Lee, Stalteri, Chimbonda, Dawson, King, Jenas, Tainio, Malbranque, Huddlestone, Ghaly, Keane, Berbatov, Defoe

    He has done better for us than some of those though.

    Where have I ever said this:

    he's our best midfielder

    Where have I said:

    Zokora is better than Carrick

    I think Robinson is a poor Keeper. Stand by it, not backtracking at all and have given reasons and there are stats out there that support it. Mainly the one stat you say you listen to: The how many goals OTHER people have scored past us.

    I have given you plenty of opinion and reasoning why I think Zokora isn't a "pile of Wank" and also given you stats to support it.

    What I have said is that your ability to assess good and bad footballing attributes and contribution is lacking integrity and capability. And I also stand by that.
     
  9. Stoof

    Stoof Immortal Hero of the Transfer and ITK Forums Staff

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    Fair enough. I'll take Ghaly out. :lol:

    So then you fucking agree with me then? I think none of those things, you think none of those things. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STILL ARGUING WITH ME? I'm addressing those who think he is, so stop butting in!!

    You're entitled to. It's your opinion. It's not the general consensus, nor backed up by anything more than malicious vendetta, but you're allowed to speak it.

    No. I see the number of goals a striker scores compared to his appearances. That's not the same thing.

    Can you tell me where I have said that and meant it as a general application to Didier Zokora's career at Tottenham? As opposed to your blinkered and amazingly narrow-minded assessment that just because I said it about him in one game it suddenly means every appearance??

    I also stand by the fact you're levelling something at me that you're even more guilty of. Even though I have conceded ground and admitted I was harsh.

    Who's lacking integrity now? And to be quite frank, who are you to tell me how people 'should' think about football? If there was one way, everyone would have the same opinion.

    And if it was your way, they'd be deeply deeply hypocritical.
     
  10. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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  11. walworthyid

    walworthyid David Ginola

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    Your both wrong. Robbo is a decent goalie, many top football people think so and I know who I am going to listen to. Zokora is a very good player, many top footballing people think so and I know who I am going to listen to.

    You can wheel out as many stats as you each like to support your view, but it will never be anything more than just that, your own view and opinion.

    For what it's worth Keller was a top notch Keeper but he could not kick a ball. At his best Robbo is a better goalie and we should all understand that his best days are ahead of him.

    Zokora is not Carrick, but then Carrick used to dissappear for weeks at a time when you would wonder if he was playing. What he did always do though was win headers at the near post and generally provide a very effective defensive shield in front of the defense. Zokora has his own attributes and skills to bring to the party, he is far more dynamic than Carrick and at his best can be equally effective at screening the defense. If Zokora continues on his current progressive curve he could prove to be a very important player for us and one that will impact upon more games more often than Carrick.

    End of.
     
  12. Nick-TopSpursMan

    Nick-TopSpursMan Active Member

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    I will say this once and only once and I am proud to say it as everyone that knows me knows that I am very knowledgeable when it comes to football, hence my coaching badge.

    Zokora is better for us than Carrick and I would rather have Didi.

    There, I said it, you can laugh all you want, I don't care. You can bring out the arguement "We have let in more goals since Carrick left".

    I will admit that yes, we have, nearly all of them SET-PIECES, nothing to do with Zokora, more to do with Robinson and our teams defensive play as a unit. Also at the same time I can say that we have played better football and scored more goals with Zokora in our team.

    Unfortunately Zokora will never truly be appreciated by many of you, lucky for me, I appreciate him.

    DO DO DO Didier Zokora!
     
  13. SpurSince57

    SpurSince57 Well-Known Member

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    Most to do, perhaps, with the fact that we've struggled to put together a consistent defensive and midfield unit for over a season, mainly due to injuries. And you can say that, because it's true, but is he the reason?

    If we can actually manage to field the same back four for more than three games before someone gets injured, if we can do the same with the midfield, then we might stand a chance of stabilising things and pulling off the magical trick that has always proved beyond Spurs; playing attractive football and being able to defend at the same time.

    I remain firmly in the unpersuaded camp, but haven't given up; a few more performances like Sunday's would go a long way towards convincing me.
     
  14. Stoof

    Stoof Immortal Hero of the Transfer and ITK Forums Staff

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    Agreed.

    Not being funny or 'nuffink' but who has ever said he's a very good player?

    I won't use stats because they aren't useful in this situation.

    Abso-frickin'-lutely.

    Ha! Rickspur is that you? I completely disagree with this. Carrick was our God-send, and he's no more anonymous than any of the others and certainly not to the extent that is portrayed here.

    Most definitely. In fact he was second-to-none and fully deserved his England caps when he was with us.

    Surprisingly I agree with this too. But why oh why have we only seen 2 or 3 games worth of this?

    You can 'End of' as much as you want - surely the single most annoying phrase to use ever. It won't of course make or cause the end of anything, especially this debate.

    I'm mainly concerned with semantics - I don't think Zokora is a 'very good' player. I don't think Zokora is a 'very bad' player. If there's room for somewhere in the middle - which there is - then that's me.

    Do you think it's possible for Zokora's curve to increase? I'm not sure it is. But I think what I would like is him to be playing well consistently - something that French football watchers say he's yet to achieve - and something that as a Spurs supporter I've yet to see him him achieve.

    As for you Nick - you kept saying he was very good, excellent and great - when he wasn't. In fact it was you and Spursking I had in mind when I wrote my Zokora posts. Continually over-selling his performances like an agent on crack.

    Can't we just call a spade a spade. He's average. And the midfield combo of him and Jenas is not as good as Carrick and Jenas. You can't dispute that, you really can't.
     
  15. talkshowhost86

    talkshowhost86 Mod-Moose Staff

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    I would put the increased number of goals down to one signing from last summer yes. Not Zokora though. Whatever his defensive merits and his ability to pass sideways his attacking prowess is limited at best. Very few of our goals come from good work by Zokora.

    Carrick was at the heart of almost every attack we had and although he wasn't always the one to play the killer pass, he constantly got it into the strikers feet and got it out wide when the pass was on. This is something that Zokora simply can't do.

    I should point out that I didn't see the Liverpool game where I understand Didi was pretty shit hot. If that's the case then good on him and I hope it continues. In his time at Spurs I think he's had one great game ever and that was away in Prague in the Uefa cup last year. Other than that I am still far from convinced. Even if he struggles to the top of the Tainio/Thudd/Zokora league I'm not sure how big a credential that is.

    The top priority in January has to be finding someone to play alongside JJ.

    EDIT: End of :grin:
     
  16. walworthyid

    walworthyid David Ginola

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    I am glad that my use the phrase "end of" had the desired effect :rofl:

    I don't have the time to chop the whole thing up but will merely focus on your last para. Firstly, there never really was a midfield combo of Carrick and Jenas because Jenas played on the right for most of that season. The midfield was Jenas (who would make way for Lennon or move inside) Carrick, Tainio and Davids. Which I agree is a better midfield than we currently have and showed it on a regualr basis.

    Moving on, no we cannot AGREE that Zokora is average, you are talking nonsense disguised as common-sense. We can agree that you think he is average. I think he is probably a touch better than average for the most part and is certainly a better player than Huddlecrap and Tainio(a player I like alot) and is frequently better than Jenas.

    Also, when you say average what do you mean? I reckon that I am more creative than Makalele, I certainly have more skill and score more goals. What does that mean? That I am a better footballer than Claude? No. What it means is that I am better at creating than Claude but not better at doing what Claude does. It also means that although more creative than Claude I am not more creative than the creative players in Claude's team. Hence why they are professional footballers and I am in publishing.

    Zokora is average if by average you mean among the world's best professional footballers. We have the wrong blend in the midfield and none of our mids are shining as a result.

    I was not trying to end the argument, I was merely demonstrating the futility of it all. If you took a moment to read all of your posts you would realise that it is simply the pot calling the kettle black.
     
  17. talkshowhost86

    talkshowhost86 Mod-Moose Staff

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    Eek

    *splutter*
     
  18. walworthyid

    walworthyid David Ginola

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    How about a better player than JJ to play ahead of Zokora? I like Jenas but what is it that he does other than score a few goals and run about alot? His touch is poor, his awareness is poor and he does not find enough killer passes.

    The fact is that our mids are just not good enough. Huddlecrap is just hype, TT is a good solid player but not top notch, Steed has his moments but again is not at the top table, the same can be said for didi, Ghaly, Prince and Taraabt. The last 2 have a chance because they are very young, particularly Adel, who I believe could be world class.

    If we want to be at the top we need better players in the engine room and I would go for a complete overhaul rather than just adding more of the same or slight improvements.
     
  19. talkshowhost86

    talkshowhost86 Mod-Moose Staff

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    Apart from the scoring bit that's almost exactly how I'd describe Zokora. I'm sorry but if it's a contest over who has the better touch then JJ would win by a country mile.

    When JJ doesn't play we miss him massively. He doesn't just run around alot. He frequently runs around more than anyone on the pitch which is invaluable. Alot of the time he has to do extra running to make up for Zokora and Thudd's ineptitude.

    If we actually got someone decent to play behind him then he could concentrate a bit more on getting forwards where he's at his best.
     
  20. walworthyid

    walworthyid David Ginola

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    How is he not among the world's best professional footabllers?

    I have played with some very good players, ex-pros, ex-Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea yts and youth players. Players who have played with Ledley, John Terry etc and they mostly work for a living because they were not good enough. So how good must you be to have played in a world cup and in a prem team that finished 5th? Very bloody good is the answer.

    Hve you played football at any decent level?

    The players in the championship and below are not as good as the players in the prem, it may seem like you can just get any player and he could play in central midfield and pass the ball to somebody wearing the same colour shirt as him and make tackles etc but it is just not that easy.

    The manager picks him, the national team coach picks him as did the managers at his previous clubs, how bad can he be?
     

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