Didier Zokora tonight

[Bus-Conductor]

Bill you should read my past posts on Zokoras passing accuracy or even ask B-C the guy who called me a muppet. I never expect to see him with passing accuracy of less than 85% (i know his game far too well). I know full well that he rarely gives a pass away and it is somehting I've complained about many times. We can't afford a Makelele type player in a 442, as we will have trouble breaking teams down. We need a players who can take hold of the game and make things happen, especially when there are 10 men behind the ball. The midfield had a lot of possession last night, but didn't use it particuarly well.

I said I'd hold my hands up if i was wrong, but the stats only show I was right. I would never have suggested the Hudd will have a higher passing accuracy than Zokora, so your % stat is worthless. Again i'm sure B-C will back me up here and if he is prepared to vouch for me then you'll know it's the truth! I said the Hudd would have played more passes and made as many tackles. The stats show I was rigth on both accounts. I didn't say the Hudd had a good game, I gave his perfformance 5/10.

Who ran their mouth too quickly? Me last night or you today? :wink: . I'm not sad or pathetic, just very observant when I watch games. If people genuinley think Zokora was so good then perhaps they should post some clips of his good work and show me what they mean.

Over all balls played Hudd 103 Zokora 76
Passes Hudd 64 Zokora 56
Tackles Hudd 4 Zokora 4
Assists Hudd 1 Zokora 0
Key passes Hudd 4 Zokora 1
Clearances Hudd 2 Zokora 1

Bill? Your thoughts?

I don't think anyone is claiming Zokora showed any quality last night, but they are saying he put the tackles in and made himself abvailable. I was saying that I think this only happened towards the end, when we were pressing and he was sitting deeper. Therefore it stuck in peoples memories (something i've said before about Zokora) and therefore they thought he had a better game than he did. I thought that if you take the match as a whole the Hudd would have done as much if not more of the work, but it was spread out and therefore less noticeable. It would seem I was right. If a player does a number of eye catching things in a short space of time it can really effect how people view his performace. Can you honestly say you watched the game last night and thought Zokora was even decent for the first hour?

Joey

Some points that you should consider. The fact that Zokora rarely gives the ball away is not inconsequential. In fact It is something I have always valued. Some greta sides, playing great football (including Arsenal recently) have been far more dependant on players that move the ball simply, relying far more heavily on players movement off the ball. This is one of weaknesses as a team. If we had played Bale & Lennon/Malbr on either flank Zokora and Hudd would have had simpler outlets. If keane and Berbatov worked harder again more options would be available. As you will vouch, I know that Zokora is not the new Makalele or Carrick but if Jol had the nouse to use his resources properly we could easily make the best of Zokora (and Hudd and others for that matter).

Secondly when I posted stats that showed Zokora more favourably you dismissed them.

Huddlestones assist was a corner. Not quite a visionary pass.

What it didn't show was "vital tackles" of which Zokora made a couple. Those tackles I distincly remember got a few of us of our feet and this helped get us going in turn getting the team going. They were the only "fucking get in there" moments of an otherwise mostly exasperating game. Sometimes these moments are what games turn on. It certainly felt like ity at the time, which is why I said you should try coming to a game. This maybe unfair as I don't know your circumstnaces. I apologise in advance if unfair and for the name calling, but as you know my biggest frustration is that you constantly belittle anything he does when there are far bigger culprits worthy of your critique.

Heres a suggestion. Our defending has got progressively worse since Dawson became a regular.

 

[SpurSince57]

Our defending was worse last season, but he was a regular in 2005-2006 when our defence was about as good as it's ever been. And, as you know, I share your reservations about him, and your annoyance at Salty's being vilified as The Man Who Cost Us CL by various dingbats. Then, I find your dismissal of Mido ridiculous, but let's not go there; he plays for Boro now.

Maybe all of us focus too much on individuals and not on the whole team. Two years ago a team that cost next to bugger all, excluding JD, Keane and Jenas, did remarkably well. It may have been 'improved' since, we've played better football (going forward, anyway) since, but do we actually have a better team?

 

[joey55]

I can't be bothered to get into another Zokora argument (for one thing they drag on and I'm going on holiday tomorrow so won't be around for three weeks). But Arsenals pass and move possession football, is totally different to how Zokora moves the ball and again it's something, not just me, but others have spoken about. To move the ball quickly players must have good first touch, or play one touch footabll with good vision. Zokora has a terrible first touch and likes to take the ball in space, so he can take time before making his simple pass. He'd rather dribble the ball a bit before distributing it. This is why I say we are predicatable or end up close together and have poor tempo when Zokora plays. This was illustrated in some of the clips I posted. The time he takes on the ball and the fact he often chooses to carry it forward, narrows the game and leaves us with less options. Hence I describe it as predicatable. All the possession in the world is totally pointless unless it is used properly. To compete at a high level in a 442, both CMs must have an all round game. At the moment we have one (JJ) and he isn't exactly a world beater.

To play effective pass and move football like Arsenal the ball must arrive and leave the players feet quickly. This is why despite his lack of mobility, the Hudd see's more of the ball. He positions himself so he is available and when he also doesn't mind recieveing it, in and around opposition players, because he is confident that he can control and move the ball quickly and effectively under pressure. By taking the ball close to the oppositon, it draws them to him and creates space. I remember both myself and IOMLS trying to expalin the same thing to you about Tugay after the Blackburn game at the end of last season.

Also at the heart of Arsenals team is Fabregas and Gilberto (when they don't have problems at CB) . Other than Mascherano, Gilberto is the best one touch footballer in the Prem and is utterly different to Zokora. Gilberto plays like he's a pinball machine, with the ball seemingly moving before he's recieved it. Flamini, the understudy to Gilberto, is a similar player to him. Fabregas, as I pointed out the other day, doesn't have a high pass percentage. He does far more than play it simple and he is arguably the key reason for Arsenals success so far this season. He's created more chances than any other CM (19) and has a pass completion rate of just 78%.

As for your Zokora stats that i dismissed, it was because they were pointless and you'd tried to find favourable comparisons (let's be honest they were purposefully manipulative), rather than more direct obvious one's. You were trying to rate a player performance based on their stats, which is why so many people reject stats all together. The reason these stats are valid is simply because they prove a point I raised. Had i not raised the point and then later been challenged on it (by Bill) then they would be equally worthless. Stats have to be used in conjunction with opinion, not to formulate opinion. In this example i was confident that the Hudd had made as many tackles and more passes than Zokora. I later used stats to confirm what i thought I'd seen.

Anyway good news for you is that I'm off to America for 3 weeks tomorrow, so you won't have to put up with me. In fact I planning on not posting until the next transfer window, as it's too depressing around here at the moment. I'm too addicted to quit, but without the internet for 3 weeks hopefully i'll lose the urge to check SC 20 times a day and won't need to do so when I'm back. I waste far too much time on here tutoring you in righteousness:wink:.

 

[gibbs131]

Our defending was worse last season, but he was a regular in 2005-2006 when our defence was about as good as it's ever been.

Cup run was good though compared to others.

 

[gibbs131]

I can't be bothered to get into another Zokora argument (for one thing they drag on and I'm going on holiday tomorrow so won't be around for three weeks). But Arsenals pass and move possession football, is totally different to how Zokora moves the ball and again it's something, not just me, but others have spoken about. To move the ball quickly players must have good first touch, or play one touch footabll with good vision. Zokora has a terrible first touch and likes to take the ball in space, so he can take time before making his simple pass. He'd rather dribble the ball a bit before distributing it. This is why I say we are predicatable or end up close together and have poor tempo when Zokora plays. This was illustrated in some of the clips I posted. The time he takes on the ball and the fact he often chooses to carry it forward, narrows the game and leaves us with less options. Hence I describe it as predicatable. All the possession in the world is totally pointless unless it is used properly. To compete at a high level in a 442, both CMs must have an all round game. At the moment we have one (JJ) and he isn't exactly a world beater.

To play effective pass and move football like Arsenal the ball must arrive and leave the players feet quickly. This is why despite his lack of mobility, the Hudd see's more of the ball. He positions himself so he is available and when he also doesn't mind recieveing it, in and around opposition players, because he is confident that he can control and move the ball quickly and effectively under pressure. By taking the ball close to the oppositon, it draws them to him and creates space. I remember both myself and IOMLS trying to expalin the same thing to you about Tugay after the Blackburn game at the end of last season.

Also at the heart of Arsenals team is Fabregas and Gilberto (when they don't have problems at CB) . Other than Mascherano, Gilberto is the best one touch footballer in the Prem and is utterly different to Zokora. Gilberto plays like he's a pinball machine, with the ball seemingly moving before he's recieved it. Flamini, the understudy to Gilberto, is a similar player to him. Fabregas, as I pointed out the other day, doesn't have a high pass percentage. He does far more than play it simple and he is arguably the key reason for Arsenals success so far this season. He's created more chances than any other CM (19) and has a pass completion rate of just 78%.

As for your Zokora stats that i dismissed, it was because they were pointless and you'd tried to find favourable comparisons (let's be honest they were purposefully manipulative), rather than more direct obvious one's. You were trying to rate a player performance based on their stats, which is why so many people reject stats all together. The reason these stats are valid is simply because they prove a point I raised. Had i not raised the point and then later been challenged on it (by Bill) then they would be equally worthless. Stats have to be used in conjunction with opinion, not to formulate opinion. In this example i was confident that the Hudd had made as many tackles and more passes than Zokora. I later used stats to confirm what i thought I'd seen.

Anyway good news for you is that I'm off to America for 3 weeks tomorrow, so you won't have to put up with me. In fact I planning on not posting until the next transfer window, as it's too depressing around here at the moment. I'm too addicted to quit, but without the internet for 3 weeks hopefully i'll lose the urge to check SC 20 times a day and won't need to do so when I'm back. I waste far too much time on here tutoring you in righteousness:wink:.

Lol. That is a lot of writing for not getting into another Zokora argument.

 

[joey55]

Lol. That is a lot of writing for not getting into another Zokora argument.

I got carried away:shrug:. When I read it back, it didn't even really put across the points i wanted to make at all well. But anyway it's not "another Zokora argument" it's going over the same stuff yet again. We (myself and B-C) had exactly the same argument just a few days ago.

 

[Bill_Oddie]

:lol: Hey joey, well, I enjoyed your posts anyway (as always, even if I do think you're a little harsh on Zoko Pops sometimes) hope you have a good time away, and look forward to seeing you back here in 3 weeks (I'll believe the transfer window thing when I see it :wink: )

 

[AW?]

Zokora is shite. Let's flog him to Portsmouth while we still can. I can't believe we paid all that money for him. Jesus christ.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

One thing most people don't notice is that Zokora does so much hassling which allows another Spurs player to nip in and start an attack.

But where are the stats for hassling I suppose?

 

[Dharmabum]

Zokora IS a DEFENSIVE CMF; a role he played at St. Etienne and Cote d'ivore. A DMF is "limited" to tackling and running; and only on occasions "requested" to the creative element in the team. Until - or unless - Jol realises this Zokora will continue to struggle. Jol simply has failed to create a balance CMF, with distinct roles to the 2 CMF. Plus, In JJ and Thud, Spurs do not have a creative CMF to complement Zokora; thus Zokora is called upon to play an offensive role that really isn't his game.

 

[gibbs131]

Zokora IS a DEFENSIVE CMF; a role he played at St. Etienne and Cote d'ivore. A DMF is "limited" to tackling and running; and only on occasions "requested" to the creative element in the team. Until - or unless - Jol realises this Zokora will continue to struggle. Jol simply has failed to create a balance CMF, with distinct roles to the 2 CMF. Plus, In JJ and Thud, Spurs do not have a creative CMF to complement Zokora; thus Zokora is called upon to play an offensive role that really isn't his game.

True. His goals/assist tally points to him being a midfield dynamo who breaks up play and begins ours. We need him with Lennon and Hud bot hungover from a Friday night binge.

 

[RickyVilla]

Thought Zoko was one of our half decent players today. Again The Hudd didn't cover himself in glory but I think there is such a lack of confidence at the mo that the younger guys are letting their heads drop

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I can't be bothered to get into another Zokora argument (for one thing they drag on and I'm going on holiday tomorrow so won't be around for three weeks). But Arsenals pass and move possession football, is totally different to how Zokora moves the ball and again it's something, not just me, but others have spoken about. To move the ball quickly players must have good first touch, or play one touch footabll with good vision. Zokora has a terrible first touch and likes to take the ball in space, so he can take time before making his simple pass. He'd rather dribble the ball a bit before distributing it. This is why I say we are predicatable or end up close together and have poor tempo when Zokora plays. This was illustrated in some of the clips I posted. The time he takes on the ball and the fact he often chooses to carry it forward, narrows the game and leaves us with less options. Hence I describe it as predicatable. All the possession in the world is totally pointless unless it is used properly. To compete at a high level in a 442, both CMs must have an all round game. At the moment we have one (JJ) and he isn't exactly a world beater.

To play effective pass and move football like Arsenal the ball must arrive and leave the players feet quickly. This is why despite his lack of mobility, the Hudd see's more of the ball. He positions himself so he is available and when he also doesn't mind recieveing it, in and around opposition players, because he is confident that he can control and move the ball quickly and effectively under pressure. By taking the ball close to the oppositon, it draws them to him and creates space. I remember both myself and IOMLS trying to expalin the same thing to you about Tugay after the Blackburn game at the end of last season.

Also at the heart of Arsenals team is Fabregas and Gilberto (when they don't have problems at CB) . Other than Mascherano, Gilberto is the best one touch footballer in the Prem and is utterly different to Zokora. Gilberto plays like he's a pinball machine, with the ball seemingly moving before he's recieved it. Flamini, the understudy to Gilberto, is a similar player to him. Fabregas, as I pointed out the other day, doesn't have a high pass percentage. He does far more than play it simple and he is arguably the key reason for Arsenals success so far this season. He's created more chances than any other CM (19) and has a pass completion rate of just 78%.

As for your Zokora stats that i dismissed, it was because they were pointless and you'd tried to find favourable comparisons (let's be honest they were purposefully manipulative), rather than more direct obvious one's. You were trying to rate a player performance based on their stats, which is why so many people reject stats all together. The reason these stats are valid is simply because they prove a point I raised. Had i not raised the point and then later been challenged on it (by Bill) then they would be equally worthless. Stats have to be used in conjunction with opinion, not to formulate opinion. In this example i was confident that the Hudd had made as many tackles and more passes than Zokora. I later used stats to confirm what i thought I'd seen.

Anyway good news for you is that I'm off to America for 3 weeks tomorrow, so you won't have to put up with me. In fact I planning on not posting until the next transfer window, as it's too depressing around here at the moment. I'm too addicted to quit, but without the internet for 3 weeks hopefully i'll lose the urge to check SC 20 times a day and won't need to do so when I'm back. I waste far too much time on here tutoring you in righteousness:wink:.

As usual. My stats that proved my point were pointless, yours proved your point.Mmmmmm....

And again, as usual, you waffle on and on about something completely different to the point I was making which was about movement off the ball. Great passing sides need it and we are inhibited by the lack of at times.

And you completely ignored the other stuff about tackling.


I know you are only going away because your getting fed up with losing arguments with me Joey. You've probably chosen america because you know they know fuck all about football and you can bamboozle them with stats. In fact I don't even believe your going on holiday. I think your just swatting up on stats and compiling a Zokora's shittest moments DVD compilation with "directors cut" feature disc. America my arse.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Zokora IS a DEFENSIVE CMF; a role he played at St. Etienne and Cote d'ivore. A DMF is "limited" to tackling and running; and only on occasions "requested" to the creative element in the team. Until - or unless - Jol realises this Zokora will continue to struggle. Jol simply has failed to create a balance CMF, with distinct roles to the 2 CMF. Plus, In JJ and Thud, Spurs do not have a creative CMF to complement Zokora; thus Zokora is called upon to play an offensive role that really isn't his game.

I didn't see tonight's game so can't base my opinion on that...

...BUT I'm afraid Zokora is not a defensive midfielder at all. His reading of the game is attrocious. His control is attrocious. His passing is attrocious. His positioning is worse than attrocious.

Don't get me wrong I don't think Thudd is much better but to say that Zokora plays poorly because he's not in the right position is missing the basic fact that Zokora is just not a very good footballer.

 

[AW?]

I didn't see tonight's game so can't base my opinion on that...

...BUT I'm afraid Zokora is not a defensive midfielder at all. His reading of the game is attrocious. His control is attrocious. His passing is attrocious. His positioning is worse than attrocious.

Don't get me wrong I don't think Thudd is much better but to say that Zokora plays poorly because he's not in the right position is missing the basic fact that Zokora is just not a very good footballer.

Precisely. He's not even playing the right fuckin' sport let alone playing in the right position.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I didn't see tonight's game so can't base my opinion on that...

...BUT I'm afraid Zokora is not a defensive midfielder at all. His reading of the game is attrocious. His control is attrocious. His passing is attrocious. His positioning is worse than attrocious.

Don't get me wrong I don't think Thudd is much better but to say that Zokora plays poorly because he's not in the right position is missing the basic fact that Zokora is just not a very good footballer.

This is just wrong. But is so unintelligent that I know it would be pointless arguing the toss.

All I would say to you is apply the same criteria to others in our team and you will find that he is way down the pecking order that starts with our bafoon of a manager, of people who are incompetant at the job they are supposed to be doing.

 

[talkshowhost86]

This is just wrong. But is so unintelligent that I know it would be pointless arguing the toss.

All I would say to you is apply the same criteria to others in our team and you will find that he is way down the pecking order that starts with our bafoon of a manager, of people who are incompetant at the job they are supposed to be doing.

It's not unintelligent but seeing as you are unintelligent I'll attempt to explain it.

Zokora is just a poor footballer. Yes he can run around and yes he's made a couple of good covering tackles recently. But if you can't see that most of the time those covering tackles come from him giving the ball away in the first place then there's not much else I can say.

But apart from his ability to run quickly what the hell does he offer the team? He takes 4 touches to control the ball when 1 would do so even if we're moving forwards quickly he slows it down horrifically, and he constantly gets caught in possession because of it.

His passing is poor. The only time he finds our players is when he passes sideways which is fine some of the time but it would be nice if he actually had the ability to pass the ball forwards.

And yes I'm sure you get all tingly and aroused when he makes his dashes forwards but can you point to one time when that has actually resulted in anything good happening? No because he runs into blind alleys away from anyone else on his team.

He doesn't have any of the attributes to make him a premiership midfielder, and of course it's well up the pecking order because the centre of midfield is the most important position on the pitch.

 

[leetotty]

What we are looking for in our players is an improvement. For me Zokora over the last 3 games has improved considerably on last season.

Reo Coker is a similar player to Zokora in terms of the type of midfielder, but Zokora proved he was a lot more effective than Reo Coker in the Villa game.

And this rubbish that you can't have a Makelle like player in a 4-4-2...What? If your full backs get forward you need someone to hang back in the middle and cover wide positions if the attack breaks down, Zokora with his mobility can do that perfectly.

I really struggle to understand who people that criticise our players actually think is better than the players we have.

Yes fabregas is better, but Fabregas is probably one of the best midfielders in the world. Gerrard is better but arguably on his day he is up with Fabregas too.

So is he much worse than how Obi Mikel has been playing, is he much worse than Sissoko, is he much worse than how Carricks been playing recently...I really don't think so.

The problem that tottenham have and have had for the last 25 years (predominantly) is our mentality. We have to pass for a purpose, we have to shoot to score and we have to play to win.

Zokora I think is improving, I am interested to see whether he has the right mentality. There is signs that he has a good mentiality, but this season will prove that.

 

[Edgar_Davids]

yeah he was better than he has been at times this season last night. But he isnt quick enough with the pass.. i.e. we need a quality creative midfielder ala.. Elano, Arteta.

 

[JD10]

It was one of his best performances for us. Makes a change.