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Didier Zokora tonight

18Klinsmann

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2005
1,254
494
Apparently Zokora is finding some form again. My guess is that he needs his fitness level to be at its utmost to be able to play his game. The truth is that his strength, pace and stamina are probably his finest traits and when he is on form he can compensate for his technical shortcomings.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
He's not multifunctional

He can tackle (although he made only one tackle against Villa based on your beloved 'stats)

He can't pass.

He can't 'dribble'. He can run fast past people into the middle of nowhere...if you can't see the difference then you really have no business trying to patronise anyone.


Stats v A Villa

-----------------Zokora-------Hudd

Tackles-----------4------------4

Pass Attempt-----56----------64

Pass complete-----49---------48


Stats this season

Pass Attempts----228--------255

Pass complete----199--------192


Zokora completes more passes despite Huddlestone attempting more. If Huddlestones passing was of a far superior nature (ie he was creating brilliant openings) then you could make some allowance on a comparison basis. But he hasn't and this isn't. What this is, is uncontravertable evidence that Zokora can pass - and better than anyone in our midfield.

You take the fun out of patronising.

HE CAN PASS.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Somehow I just knew you'd say something like that, B-C.

So much for balanced critical assessment, then.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,103
47,058
If you could read you'd see that I've admitted Thudd was crap against Villa. He was terrible and gave the ball away almost constantly.

Now stat boy for gods sake use your eyes rather than relying on statistics. How many of those completed passes were in the last 10 minutes when he just sat at the back and played it to Dawson? You're fucking obsessed with stats but you aren't using any common sense.

And again have you looked at the type of passes that Hudd makes compared to Zokora? I'm not saying that Hudd makes defence splitting passes and sets up goals left right and centre. But he does attempt to make passes that move the team forwards. I'll be the first to admit that on more than one occasion he picks the wrong time to try these passes and there are times that he should take Zokora's lead and just pass it to Chimbonda. But the fact is that Zokora simply can't play those passes because he's not good enough. Hudd is far from the completed article but he does have the ability to make those passes and could be nurtured into using that talent properly. Zokora will never have that ability.

And stat boy where is the stat for 'touches taken to control a simple pass'?
 

Rabbi_Krustofski

Active Member
Jan 13, 2005
3,091
10
Finally, people are adding up our bad start to the season with Huddlestone playing regular in midfield. Does no work in midfield off the ball.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,103
47,058
Finally, people are adding up our bad start to the season with Huddlestone playing regular in midfield. Does no work in midfield off the ball.

To be fair our really terrible start to the season was when Zokora was in the team (Sunderland and Everton) and when Hudd came in to the team we looked better against Derby, Man Utd and Fulham (for 80mins anyway).

The sad thing is that at the moment neither are remotely good enough for what we hoped would be a top 6 premiership team.

We can argue for days and days about who is better out of Zokora and Huddlestone (and BC will continue to be wrong) but it's ultimately a pointless argument. Sad but true.
 

Partizan

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
6,573
3,405
Stats v A Villa

-----------------Zokora-------Hudd

Tackles-----------4------------4

Pass Attempt-----56----------64

Pass complete-----49---------48


Stats this season

Pass Attempts----228--------255

Pass complete----199--------192


Zokora completes more passes despite Huddlestone attempting more. If Huddlestones passing was of a far superior nature (ie he was creating brilliant openings) then you could make some allowance on a comparison basis. But he hasn't and this isn't. What this is, is uncontravertable evidence that Zokora can pass - and better than anyone in our midfield.

You take the fun out of patronising.

HE CAN PASS.

OMFG!!!!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
If you could read you'd see that I've admitted Thudd was crap against Villa. He was terrible and gave the ball away almost constantly.

Now stat boy for gods sake use your eyes rather than relying on statistics. How many of those completed passes were in the last 10 minutes when he just sat at the back and played it to Dawson? You're fucking obsessed with stats but you aren't using any common sense.

And again have you looked at the type of passes that Hudd makes compared to Zokora? I'm not saying that Hudd makes defence splitting passes and sets up goals left right and centre. But he does attempt to make passes that move the team forwards. I'll be the first to admit that on more than one occasion he picks the wrong time to try these passes and there are times that he should take Zokora's lead and just pass it to Chimbonda. But the fact is that Zokora simply can't play those passes because he's not good enough. Hudd is far from the completed article but he does have the ability to make those passes and could be nurtured into using that talent properly. Zokora will never have that ability.

And stat boy where is the stat for 'touches taken to control a simple pass'?

Stat boy.
Boo fuckin hoo. You geezer you.

I think you'll find I use stats pretty rarely, but occasionally they do back up what you see with your own eyes. I've said for a long time Zokora is not shit. The argument with Stoof was merely pointing out that - which I did without stats - he is better at his job than others are at theirs.

I think if you read through what youjust said you'll realise that you've pretty much made my case for me.

Your punching outside your constriction. I suggest you go back to dicking around with the intellectual featherweights.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
That pretty much sums it up. Zokora has at best been OK. And really, B-C, it's a little disingenuous to dismiss those who rate Dawson as idiots yet use SC MOTM ratings to justify your support for Zokora. In my recollection he's played one blinder, a few good games and quite a few where he's been mediocre to dire.

And you're expounding a great deal of verbiage to claim he does an OK job. Right. Because, at best, that's what he's done. When he's been out of the side, through illness, suspension, or because he's been dropped because of crap performances, he hasn't been missed. We've played as well or better. Now imagine if we'd lost Carrick to injury in 2005-2006. Imagine if Fabregas picked up a serious injury this weekend. Imagine if the same happened to Zokora. Would we notice any difference?

Great use of stats, by the way. Interesting that they're completely valid, in your view, but those suggesting Mido was a far more effective goalscorer for us than Kanoute are not. But that's Stat-U-Like, I suppose.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,103
47,058
Stat boy.
Boo fuckin hoo. You geezer you.

I think you'll find I use stats pretty rarely, but occasionally they do back up what you see with your own eyes. I've said for a long time Zokora is not shit. The argument with Stoof was merely pointing out that - which I did without stats - he is better at his job than others are at theirs.

I think if you read through what youjust said you'll realise that you've pretty much made my case for me.

Your punching outside your constriction. I suggest you go back to dicking around with the intellectual featherweights.

:rofl:

At least most condescending people aren't delusional.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,103
47,058
That pretty much sums it up. Zokora has at best been OK. And really, B-C, it's a little disingenuous to dismiss those who rate Dawson as idiots yet use SC MOTM ratings to justify your support for Zokora. In my recollection he's played one blinder, a few good games and quite a few where he's been mediocre to dire.

And you're expounding a great deal of verbiage to claim he does an OK job. Right. Because, at best, that's what he's done. When he's been out of the side, through illness, suspension, or because he's been dropped because of crap performances, he hasn't been missed. We've played as well or better. Now imagine if we'd lost Carrick to injury in 2005-2006. Imagine if Fabregas picked up a serious injury this weekend. Imagine if the same happened to Zokora. Would we notice any difference?

Great use of stats, by the way. Interesting that they're completely valid, in your view, but those suggesting Mido was a far more effective goalscorer for us than Kanoute are not. But that's Stat-U-Like, I suppose.

Yes...yes we would. Roll on the African Nations.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
That pretty much sums it up. Zokora has at best been OK. And really, B-C, it's a little disingenuous to dismiss those who rate Dawson as idiots yet use SC MOTM ratings to justify your support for Zokora. In my recollection he's played one blinder, a few good games and quite a few where he's been mediocre to dire.

And you're expounding a great deal of verbiage to claim he does an OK job. Right. Because, at best, that's what he's done. When he's been out of the side, through illness, suspension, or because he's been dropped because of crap performances, he hasn't been missed. We've played as well or better. Now imagine if we'd lost Carrick to injury in 2005-2006. Imagine if Fabregas picked up a serious injury this weekend. Imagine if the same happened to Zokora. Would we notice any difference?

Great use of stats, by the way. Interesting that they're completely valid, in your view, but those suggesting Mido was a far more effective goalscorer for us than Kanoute are not. But that's Stat-U-Like, I suppose.


You say he hasn't been missed but I disagree. Towards the middle-end of last season Hudd was piss poor and was replaced by Zokora. We went on to clinch a UEFA spot with some really good performances from him - including an outstanding one against one of our main rivals for that spot in probably the best prformnace of the season.

The only stinker anyone can sight seems to be Arsenal away in which Dawson and Chimbonda were by far the biggest culprits of a team of tossers.

And we lost Carrick for a whole season and still managed the same league place and 3 vastly superior cup runs whilst playing better football. Hardly a clear cut argument supporter is it ?

And the difference - as I have said many, many times - was that Kanoute played in an inferior Spurs side and played a much more creative/less selfish role than Mido. And have given you the stats that back this up. But we could easily clear the Mido thing up. Just tell me who you think is the better footballer ? If you had a choice now to buy one which one would you chose ?
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
I have never used the SC MR to support my opinion of Zokora, I have used them to contradict that he is not total shit.

You say he hasn't been missed but I disagree. Towards the middle-end of last season Hudd was piss poor and was replaced by Zokora. We went on to clinch a UEFA spot with some really good performances from him - including an outstanding one against one of our main rivals for that spot in probably the best prformnace of the season.

The only stinker anyone can sight seems to be Arsenal away in which Dawson and Chimbonda were by far the biggest culprits of a team of tossers.

And we lost Carrick for a whole season and still managed the same league place and 3 vastly superior cup runs whilst playing better football. Hardly a clear cut argument supporter is it ?

And the difference - as I have said many, many times - was that Kanoute played in an inferior Spurs side and played a much more creative/less selfish role than Mido. And have given you the stats that back this up. But we could easily clear the Mido thing up. Just tell me who you think is the better footballer ? If you had a choice now to buy one which one would you chose ?


Semantics.

My recollection was that the Hudd was injured. The outstanding performance was against Bolton. I've credited him for that. So why just the one?

He was pretty bloody awful in every game against Arsenal last season. 'I really look forward to playing against Kolo and Emmanuel.' Yeah, sure.

Going out in the first round of both domestic cups was hardly Carrick's fault, and we weren't in the UEFA Cup. When we finally got going we played far more attractive football, but would you attribute that to Zokora?

Kanoute is the better footballer, Mido was the more effective goalscorer. As I think I've said not above a hundred times. And I think you'll find they had roughly the same number of assists over a season. You've never offered any stats to back your view up, just increasingly ludicrous assertions, and your opinion that it was just luck that Mido did so well before the ANC. Sure, whatever. 11 goals in 27 appearances at a rate of one in five (and a much better GPM rate than Defoe) is just so shit. And Kanoute was 'laid back' and 'unselfish', as opposed to turning up one game in three.

So forgive me if I don't take your comments about having a balanced view entirely seriously. It's OK for you to chuck abuse at players you don't rate, but quite out of order for anyone to suggest players of whom you think highly aren't all that.

And we managed 5th place and three great cup runs in spite of Jol going completely contrary to your notions of how we should do things.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I didn't say it was his only good performance I said "including that one" again you waffle on as if I've said something different. So you don't give him credit for "that amazing run of 27 points from 12 games" that you mentioned in another thread.

I didn't say it was Carrick's fault did I, just merely answered your "would we miss Carrick as much as Zokora" jibe with hard facts.

Jol's part in all this is irrelevant in this argument - we are discussing Zokora's - but if you want to discuss Jol's abilities start a thread and I'll gladly see you there.

I always apply my critique of players fairly and rarely band waggon hop. I think you'll agree. I was possibly the first on here to call Mido shit and the same with robinson. They were loved by most.

Just for the record, if you check the telegraph stats you will find that Zokora's passing and tackling compares favourably with people like Alonso, Gerrard and is better than our main perceived rivals players like Hamman, Butt, Reo-coker, Nolan, Mendes, Arteta, Savage, Tugay.

Nothing pisses me off than wankers that are worshiped and decent players that get slagged. It happens at the ground and in here and 've argued in/at both.

So who would you buy now Kanoute or Mido
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2005
9,018
6,900
That pretty much sums it up. Zokora has at best been OK.

I know I'm butting into an argument with BC, but that's simply wrong. At best DZ's been superb. At worst he's been mediocre and cost us points.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
I know I'm butting into an argument with BC, but that's simply wrong. At best DZ's been superb. At worst he's been mediocre and cost us points.

For one half, against Bolton, yes. A few more games like that and I'd happily concede we really had something. In fact, I'd be very much in the pro-Zokora camp.
 

gibbs131

Banned
May 20, 2005
8,870
11
This looks like the official Zok watch thread.

Zok had a great game against Liverpool IMO. They had a 60 million midfield and he took them out of the game nicely.
 

tony0379

The bald midget has to go!
May 17, 2004
15,802
41,069
the liverpool game zoko was fantastic best game hes had for us
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Still haven't seen the whole game or even a decent set of highlights, but from the radio commentary it sounded as if he and Jenas pretty much neutralised Mascherano and Gerrard. So back to my perennial complaint.
 
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