Didier Zokora tonight

[DFF]

Zok and Bale were fantastic. Not sure where all the Jenas love has come from. I think he's our best CM when he wants to be, but thought this was one of his worst performances of the season. For once, i think it was Zokora that made Jenas look better than he actually was. Tainio produced in fits and starts, but was generally anonymous.

 

[gibbs131]

Still haven't seen the whole game or even a decent set of highlights, but from the radio commentary it sounded as if he and Jenas pretty much neutralised Mascherano and Gerrard. So back to my perennial complaint.

100% wrong. JJ was in and out of the game. Zok bossed it. JJ's "foul" (fkn ref!) led to the goal.

When we were 2-1 up JJ thought he was a striker. I remember Zok SCREAMING at the team to get back into position.

 

[SpurSince57]

100% wrong. JJ was in and out of the game. Zok bossed it. JJ's "foul" (fkn ref!) led to the goal.

When we were 2-1 up JJ thought he was a striker. I remember Zok SCREAMING at the team to get back into position.

As I said, I haven't had a chance to see it yet, other than MOTD's joke highlights.

Match stats on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/10/08/sfgliv108.xml

Kaboul 97% pass accuracy!

 

[sloth]

As I said, I haven't had a chance to see it yet, other than MOTD's joke highlights.

Match stats on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/10/08/sfgliv108.xml

Kaboul 97% pass accuracy!

I watched the whole game. JJ looked out of sorts. DZ was very good, played the DM/"Spikey" CM role very well. We lacked creativity without Thudd, but the left side was very strong with Bale backed up by Lee and Keane had a blinder. But back to DZ...

He got stuck in distributed the ball intelligently, a couple of times he -as is his won't - took too long on the ball, but at least this happened near the centre circle instead of near our penalty box as has happened in the past. What stood out the most for me though were burgeoning glimpses of leadership. I'm sure Jol's been at the older members to give more guidance, DZ was pointing, yelling, gesticulating throughout and most seemed to be to do with getting into position, getting back, holding shape etc. what I partiuclarly liked however was the way he was doing it at the same time as haring back to make a crucial interception, block or tackle.

In conclusion not the finished article but promising signs of (my hoped for) second season improvement.

 

[SpurSince57]

I watched the whole game. JJ looked out of sorts. DZ was very good, played the DM/"Spikey" CM role very well. We lacked creativity with Thudd, but the left side was very strong with Bale backed up by Lee and Keane had a blinder. But back to DZ...

He got stuck in distributed the ball intelligently, a couple of times he -as is his won't - wanted too long on the ball, but at least this happened near the centre circle instead of near our penalty box as has happened in the past. What stood out the most for me though were burgeoning glimpses of leadership. I'm sure Jol's been at the older members to give more guidance, DZ was pointing, yelling, gesticulating throughout and most seemed to be to do with getting into position, getting back, holding shape etc. what I partiuclarly liked however was the way he was doing it at the same time as haring back to make a crucial interception, block or tackle.

In conclusion not the finished article but promising signs of (my hoped for) second season improvement.

Well I do hope so too, Sloth, because my continual gripe has been that he can do the stuff he's supposed to and we paid whatever for, but hasn't done it nearly consistently enough.

 

[sloth]

Well I do hope so too, Sloth, because my continual gripe has been that he can do the stuff he's supposed to and we paid whatever for, but hasn't done it nearly consistently enough.

And my continual gripe is that he can do the stuff he's supposed to and does so more often than people keep him credit for.

Perhaps it's that his eye-catching performances tend to be of the negative rather than the positive variety? Or because he's not Carrick? Or he's not the player people thought he was supposed to be? Or just because every fan needs a player to to barrack? What get's me is the quality of supporter doing him down, you can shrug your shoulders at the extremists, that's just their style, but DZ has attracted the unwarranted scorn of the likes of Stoof, Talkshow and your good-self.

Here's the pattern: four above par performances and with reluctance his critics say "well if he keeps it up I'll change my mind", followed by one below par performance which is greeted by "Zokora's shite! He's a pile of wank! He shouldn't even be in the reserves!"

No one's saying he's the finished article, the strongest arguments come from the likes of me who think he has the potential to be world-class and needed a season to adapt to the Premiership. If I've got it wrong about the "World-Class" - and I may have - I'm not wrong in the reasoned analysis of his performances so far nor the observation that many players out of Ligue 1 take a season to adapt to the premiership.

If it's not possible to be positive, I can't see why people can't at least hold fire on the irrational and gratuitous negativity.

 

[Stoof]

but DZ has attracted the unwarranted scorn of the likes of Stoof, Talkshow and your good-self.

My scorn developed as a good few on here were saying he's the greatest midfielder the club has and he's been excellent in most games. And it may have been encouraged by that, and his lacklustre displays of which you do him no harm by forgetting to mention. :wink:

He's not been anything like we've expected though, or has he? I think that's the underlying disappointment, for one I had great great hopes for.

Here's the pattern: four above par performances and with reluctance his critics say "well if he keeps it up I'll change my mind", followed by one below par performance which is greeted by "Zokora's shite! He's a pile of wank! He shouldn't even be in the reserves!"

This would be a great argument if he had those 4 performances of which you speak. I'd rather suggest you reverse your figures to paint a more accurate picture.

No one's saying he's the finished article, the strongest arguments come from the likes of me who think he has the potential to be world-class and needed a season to adapt to the Premiership.

But he should be pretty close to the finished article. He's breathing his last breathes as a 26 year old; he's an International who has played in a World Cup and has at least 250 appearances for club and country. Am I wrong in expecting him to be pretty darn good for what was in essence (in essence, I know not originally in purpose, but look at the name he replaces on the team sheet) our Carrick replacement?

If I've got it wrong about the "World-Class" - and I may have - I'm not wrong in the reasoned analysis of his performances so far nor the observation that many players out of Ligue 1 take a season to adapt to the premiership.

Many players do. But seasoned watchers of French football (sadly not I) have said that he's playing pretty much as well as he did for St. Etienne. Which can't be good, can it?

If it's not possible to be positive, I can't see why people can't at least hold fire on the irrational and gratuitous negativity.

In my defence, I'm generally (one or two drunken/hungover exceptions) only overly negative when given "he was excellent; our best midfielder", just to redress the Karmaic balance. :wink:

All with good pro-THFC sentiment at heart though, slothy. :-D

 

[gibbs131]

To be fair to him, this month along with Bale he has been the most consistent player for us in the middle of the park.

 

[sloth]

Stoof, in the third quarter of last season, after a series of good performances you were saying something along the lines of, "I may have be wrong about him". He had a poor performance and you were straight back to your default setting :roll:. He then had an above average run in in which no one talked much at all about him. He began this season poorly (but no worse than the rest of the side) and even without playing in subsequent matches became a "pile of wank" etc etc.

Like I say there's the usual suspects who make these kinds of comments and then there's the more reasoned posters (of which you're one) and it's when the latter start doing it I get riled.

You say you only do it in opposition to rave reviews but if there's guilt to be found then it's in over enthusiasm which is not nearly as poisonous as it's opposite. and while people are over-enthusiastic the truth will lie somewhere beneath their eulogising; beneath but surely not in pits of footballing mediocrity where you and others often put him.

This is a statement to which i think you'd adhere: "At best mediocre; at worst a pile of wank".

I'd say of him: "at worst mediocre; at best excellent".

In all honesty who do you think's closer to the truth of it?

 

[Chaplain]

But he should be pretty close to the finished article. He's breathing his last breathes as a 26 year old; he's an International who has played in a World Cup and has at least 250 appearances for club and country. Am I wrong in expecting him to be pretty darn good

Wait...how is a 26 year old, technically in his prime, breathing his last breathes? Most DMs can play consistently at a high level until they're in their early 30s, which gives him a good 5-6 years.

The finished article argument I do agree with though, one cannot show "glimpses of talent" at 26.

 

[Stoof]

Wait...how is a 26 year old, technically in his prime, breathing his last breathes? Most DMs can play consistently at a high level until they're in their early 30s, which gives him a good 5-6 years.

The finished article argument I do agree with though, one cannot show "glimpses of talent" at 26.

Breathing his last breathes as a 26 year old; as he is soon to turn 27. :-D

Sorry, it's the floweriness. Unnecessary floweriness too. :wink:

 

[Stavrogin]

My scorn developed as a good few on here were saying he's the greatest midfielder the club has and he's been excellent in most games. And it may have been encouraged by that, and his lacklustre displays of which you do him no harm by forgetting to mention. :wink:

The only person i've seen saying such things is Spursking with his racist agenda.

I've been defending Zokora because of people's bizarre bias against him. 'He can't tackle, he can't pass etc.' I don't think he's particularly that good, it just seems the criticism against him is relatively widespread and irrational, whilst his vocal support is rather small and insanely irrational (for the most part) making it irrelevant.

 

[walworthyid]

Wait...how is a 26 year old, technically in his prime, breathing his last breathes? Most DMs can play consistently at a high level until they're in their early 30s, which gives him a good 5-6 years.

The finished article argument I do agree with though, one cannot show "glimpses of talent" at 26.

I don't get your and stoof's argument on this at all? He has moved to a completely different league with a completely different style of football and we have seen so many times before that players often struggle in their first season yet go on to become top quality players. Need I mention Bergkamp, Henry, Drogba and numerous others? In addition citing the fact that he has played however many games for club and country is again spurious because international football is played at about the same pace as French football.

I am by no means saying that Zokora has or ever will be a world beater but what I will say is that he has played far more good games than he has bad and certainly far more than stoof et al would have people believe.

Much of his problem has to do with the formation we play, if we had makalele in our midfield he would struggle because he would be required to do things that he is not good at and would struggle to be in position to do the things he is good at.

One noticeable thing about this past week is that Zokora has been playing his football about 10-15 yards further back than usual and has played much better for it. The game is going on in front of him rather than around and behind him and his main attributes come to the fore. His speed and strength enable him to act on what he sees in ways that the hudd cannot and he is able to intercept and break up play as well as then being able to get the ball moving again.

For me when he plays in this way there is simply no contest between him and hudd and I would have dz every single time.

As for the argument that stoof is addressing the balance because people go over board in praise of zokora, it is rather hollow, you must call it as you see it, either you think he is good or not but it must be for your own reasons.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sloth, I completely agree with you on this one as you know.

Stoof, SS et al, please see the new stat thread I'm about to post.

 

[Stoof]

I don't get your and stoof's argument on this at all? He has moved to a completely different league with a completely different style of football and we have seen so many times before that players often struggle in their first season yet go on to become top quality players. Need I mention Bergkamp, Henry, Drogba and numerous others? In addition citing the fact that he has played however many games for club and country is again spurious because international football is played at about the same pace as French football.

Really? That's a new one for me.

Henry didn't struggle as much as people suggest, in fact his 'struggle' was a mere 10-15 games. If that. He scored 18 League goals in his first season for Arsenal. So can we stop believing the tabloid generalisation that he 'struggled'? Good.

And the others that you cite have similar. However, that's not the point you're making. You're talking about the time it takes to adapt. Tainio adapted after minute 1 of his first game for us. And I'm yet to find many of Arsene's French products who have come in and struggled in their first season. In fact I'd go as far as saying it's a good move footballing wise from France to England. This is tenuous and opinion - so I expect disagreement.

I am by no means saying that Zokora has or ever will be a world beater

Good. Nor am I - nor am I suggest the polar opposite, which you appear to be.

but what I will say is that he has played far more good games than he has bad and certainly far more than stoof et al would have people believe.

Really? I honestly can't say I've come out of more than 10 games and gone 'Didi did a job for us today' - because granted he did and has had his moments. But these are so fleeting that they're easy to dismiss as anomaly, rather than the other way round that you can with most of our other players.

Much of his problem has to do with the formation we play,

So it's the other players fault for him not playing well, loosely. More that Martin Jol's system fails him. Why? Because he isn't a defensive minded midfielder? I agree - he's not. But it's not because he's an attack minded one either. I ask this question in 1 out of 3 Zokora posts: WHAT IS HE??? You can't continue to blame every thing else can you? He's a professional footballer. A midfielder, who has been known to 'hold'. It's not a leap of faith to think he wouldn't be able to maybe adapt to a system - given that he is an International after all. Or is that just more experience of "French" football. [Do you watch the African Nations??] :?

if we had makalele in our midfield he would struggle because he would be required to do things that he is not good at and would struggle to be in position to do the things he is good at.

I'd love for you to list the things he's good at. And to be perfectly frank, if we had Makalele in central midfield we could pack ol' Didi's bags and put him back on a plane to France.

One noticeable thing about this past week is that Zokora has been playing his football about 10-15 yards further back than usual and has played much better for it. The game is going on in front of him rather than around and behind him and his main attributes come to the fore.

His speed and strength enable him to act on what he sees in ways that the hudd cannot and he is able to intercept and break up play as well as then being able to get the ball moving again.

Strength??? Are you kidding me? I'll give you that he's an athlete. But strength? He couldn't hold off a kiddy on a tantrum. He constantly finds the floor if challenged, frequently gets out-muscled. Sorry mate, you've picked the wrong adjective and attribute to describe Didier Zokora there.

For me when he plays in this way there is simply no contest between him and hudd and I would have dz every single time.

He can run quickly. That's not the vision that Huddlestone brings to the side. It's no secret that our performance picked up when the midfield had Huddlestone and Jenas in it. That was obvious. Didi was dropped and dropped good. But the Huddlestone point annoys me, he's 6 years younger and much lower on the curve. Didi's at the top of his.

As for the argument that stoof is addressing the balance because people go over board in praise of zokora, it is rather hollow, you must call it as you see it, either you think he is good or not but it must be for your own reasons.

I reserve my opinion to myself, as to be honest I've been posting the same thing about him for pretty much 6 months now - and everyone knows it. I only trot it out when someone's trying to say he's been excellent and great for us.

Or when someone calls me out and lumps me in with the general posting.

I hope he proves me wrong, I want him to be great for us. I want him to be this all-singing, all-dancing, multi-functional midfielder that he's billed as. Would it be harsh to claim he was a passenger in a team playing well last year?

Touch of Zieglers?

Who knows eh?

 

[sloth]

Really? That's a new one for me.

Henry didn't struggle as much as people suggest, in fact his 'struggle' was a mere 10-15 games. If that. He scored 18 League goals in his first season for Arsenal. So can we stop believing the tabloid generalisation that he 'struggled'? Good.

And the others that you cite have similar. However, that's not the point you're making. You're talking about the time it takes to adapt. Tainio adapted after minute 1 of his first game for us. And I'm yet to find many of Arsene's French products who have come in and struggled in their first season. In fact I'd go as far as saying it's a good move footballing wise from France to England. This is tenuous and opinion - so I expect disagreement.



Good. Nor am I - nor am I suggest the polar opposite, which you appear to be.



Really? I honestly can't say I've come out of more than 10 games and gone 'Didi did a job for us today' - because granted he did and has had his moments. But these are so fleeting that they're easy to dismiss as anomaly, rather than the other way round that you can with most of our other players.



So it's the other players fault for him not playing well, loosely. More that Martin Jol's system fails him. Why? Because he isn't a defensive minded midfielder? I agree - he's not. But it's not because he's an attack minded one either. I ask this question in 1 out of 3 Zokora posts: WHAT IS HE??? You can't continue to blame every thing else can you? He's a professional footballer. A midfielder, who has been known to 'hold'. It's not a leap of faith to think he wouldn't be able to maybe adapt to a system - given that he is an International after all. Or is that just more experience of "French" football. [Do you watch the African Nations??] :?



I'd love for you to list the things he's good at. And to be perfectly frank, if we had Makalele in central midfield we could pack ol' Didi's bags and put him back on a plane to France.



Strength??? Are you kidding me? I'll give you that he's an athlete. But strength? He couldn't hold off a kiddy on a tantrum. He constantly finds the floor if challenged, frequently gets out-muscled. Sorry mate, you've picked the wrong adjective and attribute to describe Didier Zokora there.



He can run quickly. That's not the vision that Huddlestone brings to the side. It's no secret that our performance picked up when the midfield had Huddlestone and Jenas in it. That was obvious. Didi was dropped and dropped good. But the Huddlestone point annoys me, he's 6 years younger and much lower on the curve. Didi's at the top of his.



I reserve my opinion to myself, as to be honest I've been posting the same thing about him for pretty much 6 months now - and everyone knows it. I only trot it out when someone's trying to say he's been excellent and great for us.

Or when someone calls me out and lumps me in with the general posting.

I hope he proves me wrong, I want him to be great for us. I want him to be this all-singing, all-dancing, multi-functional midfielder that he's billed as. Would it be harsh to claim he was a passenger in a team playing well last year?

Touch of Zieglers?

Who knows eh?

:roll:

 

[Stoof]

:roll:

:-D What did you expect?

You (the royal "you") call me out, I give a response.

 

[sloth]

:-D What did you expect?

You (the royal "you") call me out, I give a response.

The thing I particularly like is that even when you're trying to be reasonably moderate you get increasingly strident the longer the post goes on. I swear if you'd gone on another couple of paragraphs you'd have ended with "and anyway he's just a pile of wank!" LOL

 

[walworthyid]

I really don't have the energy to address all of your points as you have mine, rather well I might add, but I will give my retort in good old fashioned prose.

I am not really that interested in the relative "curves" of dz and hudd, hudd has been poor as far as I am concerned. You talk about vision, what vision? Long forty yard passes? That ain't vision mate and if it is robbo and dawson have it in abundance. Vision is finding a pass when under pressure or moving the ball to create a pass along the GROUND, give and go's etc not what hudd does. He mostly gets the ball and gets rid as soon as possible until he gets it when there isn't a player within 20 yards of him. In his defense, the movement ahead of him is often poor but he is scared to get on the ball and make things happen or dictate play.

You say that the formation can't be to blame because good players can play anywhere. Please, have you ever played football? What about Danny Murphy? Is he a poor player or a player that needs to be played in a certain system? Makalele would be great in our system would he? Just how would we get on with claude 40 yards behind Jenas while the opposition cuts us to shreds?

In my opinion you think that Zokora is a poor player and all of this nonsense about only saying something when others praise him is just that, nonsense. He played well in the latter half of last season and has begun playing well again. He was clearly our best player on thursday and had Keane not scored he would have been so again yesterday when he dominated Gerrard and Mascherano.

I have no problem with people having differing opinions, no matter how flawed their argument in support of their opinions may be, it is your claim to be giving him a fair chance that is annoying. You don't like him, just be man enough to admit it.

I am, I think huddlestone is pants, I really do and it will take a massive improvement in his game to make me think different. He wouldn't make the bench if I were picking the team.

 

[gibbs131]

Would it be harsh to claim he was a passenger in a team playing well last year?

Touch of Zieglers?

Who knows eh?

I think only Robbo and Daws played more games for us last season. So that is pretty harsh.