Dissertation Question - Jewish Tottenham

[pigeon_spurs]

Hi Guys, (I recently posted this on another forum and the reaction was more than extraordinary, by gaining a general consensus of what people think towards the subject and their views have gone a long wat to helping. So if you have something you would like to add read what its about and it will be really appreciated)


I am a third year writing my dissertation, basically my dissertation is searching to prove or disprove the links between the Jewish Community and Tottenham. It also wants to look at how religion and ethnic minorities attach themselves to British Football clubs, and the association between the two.

What i was hoping to gain from this is a general idea of how you see Tottenham being a Jewish club and where you see its origin. Do you believe that we are a Jewish Club or is this just presented by the media and popular culture. (my example being Alf Garnett) or was it anti semitism from opposing clubs, and something in which we took for our own.

Do you see any other clubs being linked with religion or ethnic minorities. I know from my research that Leeds is closely linked in its past with the Jewish Community of that city, however this is not seen generalluy. Do you see Liverpool for instance as being associated With Ireland because of Immigration.

Any feedback will be useful and taken on board. Thanks for anybody who has anything useful to say.

Hi Guys that is what i originally posted. I Owuld like to say thank you to everyone who has taken their time to reply with such in depth posts, and every comment has been taken on board and recorded! If anyone has any more to add that would be great! Everything you have said so far has been so much help, you wouldnt understand how useful. If the mighty steffen freud has heard any more that would be great. What you had to say was really a great in sight!

 

[striebs]

As far as I know THFC's origins are not Jewish .

The bible teacher from All Hallows school and a local vicar played a big part in organising it as summarised here .

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=43476


I've talked to Jewish football supporters and we both were of the opinion that football and religious "affiliations" should be kept separate .

As many have pointed out there are just as many Jewish supporters of Arse Paste and their board was predominantly made up of Jewish people .

I don't personally see any football team as Christian , Jewish , Moslem , anything else .

Would like to hear from any Moslem Spurs fans what they think about Spurs being referred to as a "Jewish Club" and whether it makes them feel a tiny bit excluded .

I am a (not very good example of) a Christian and do actually believe .

 

[Maske2g]

I didn't know the Irish were now an ethnic minority....

Look into Ajax, they have a big Jewish following.

I would imagine Arsenal have a very similar breakdown of religions among their fans as Spurs do.

Spurs has have had Jewish owners since post war, not sure of before.

 

[Yakflange]

I didn't know the Irish were now an ethnic minority....

The Irish most certainly are an ethnic minority - what else would they be?

More pertinent is the question as to whether Jews are an ethnic minority, since "Jewish" can refer to religion, nationality, cultural identity, ethnicity, etc. - or a mixture of them all.

But then questions of pigeonholing race and ethnicity have always made my brain hurt.

 

[wwspur]

Living in Ireland i've always been told that Liverpool were originally a protestant club and Everton were a Catholic club.... A bit like Rangers and Celtic.

 

[TutanKlinsmann]

Would like to hear from any Moslem Spurs fans what they think about Spurs being referred to as a "Jewish Club" and whether it makes them feel a tiny bit excluded .
.

Striebs, I'm a Moslem and I've been supporting the club for 30 years now. I don't see the club as a 'Jewish club', even as I'm aware that the owners have always been Jews. And it doesn't feels right to tag a club as a Jewish club, Asian club, or white club. It makes me proud to see the multi colour faces in the terraces at WHL, as it's always been.

 

[Azrael]

It seems to me that in the earlier days of the club, in the 50s and 60s a sizeable, chunk of the fanbase was Jewish, which is where the connection comes from. However, the origins of the club are not Jewish, nor can it be said that that fa base has a sizeable chunk of Jews these days (although there are of course still Jewish fans).

I think one must consider the demographics of North London in the early to mid 20th century. It was where most of the Jewish communities of London were based. Hendon, Barnet, Golder's Green, Tottenham, Manor House, Stoke Newington and so on. Its therefore not surprising that there is a correlation.

 

[Azazello]

Isn't this a function of our proximity to historically large Jewish populations?

I've read opinions which suggest that Arsenal's a big a 'Jewish' club as Tottenham, but it's part of the Tottenham's unofficial identity in a way it simply isn't with the Wanderers.

Why it took with us and not with Arsenal - who knows? Could be an interesting angle to add, if true.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I'd endorse a lot of the comments already here, especially those from Yakflange, Azrael and Azazello. I can add a few points.

I'm not religious, but I'm still Jewish. It's my ethnic group.

It's important to state that Tottenham got a reputation as "the Jewish club" not because Tottenham supporters chose this, but because opposing supporters used it against us.

I'd suggest that one reason why Spurs got identified as a Jewish club, whereas Arsenal did not, is because a higher proportion of Jews in Spurs' catchment area, especially around Stamford Hill, are not only Jewish but also Orthodox and sometimes Hasidic. Their customs and clothing make them much more visible than the much larger numbers of non-Orthodox Jews from (say) Golders Green or Whitechapel, who are just as likely to support Arsenal or even West Ham and who probably dress and speak much like the non-Jewish population around them.

 

[Kingstheman]

If nobody had ever told me, I would have no idea that Tottenham were the "Jewish club".

It is as simple as that.

'Yid Army!' What's that?' Without the situation being as it is, it would never have been in the first place.

Tottenham are the team my dad supported, the team nearest to my birthplace and where I grew up, most people grew up Spurs in those days (and still do). They are the team that played in colours I liked, with the famous players of the day, Waddle, Hoddle, Lineker, Gascoigne, Mabbutt and Thorstvedt, Ardiles. Although - I only remember Tottenham playing from 1991 - in which they won the F.A. Cup.

I am Anglo-Irish (more Anglo than Irish), I am also Catholic due to the Irish part.

My dad's dad supported Arsenal due to being from Islington but his only son grew up in the 1950s and 1960s watching the double side and Greaves. My mum's dad could have supported anyone from the North East, but most likely Gateshead Town or Newcastle. My mum hates football. Neither of them are Jewish - however I went to University in Durham and now work for an Israeli company.

Do I care if we are considered a 'Jewish club'? No. Are we a Jewish club? Well, do you base that on who the owner is? Who makes up the staff? Who plays on the pitch? Which % of fans at the game paying to watch are Jewish? How many fans watching us on TV are Jewish? How many fans look for the score in the papers on Sunday are Jewish?

Will the % be much higher than other clubs in our location? Will the % be much higher than those in our division? There are more questions one could ask than could be answered.

I will note that whereas I do not define my support of Tottenham in relation to anything other than liking this team, others have defined a Jewish connection to my connection with Tottenham - the only thing I can liken it to is being a connection of a connection on linkedin - even if the connection is neither solid nor entirely factual.

Sorry to muddy the waters without telling you much.

If it helps, my Irish relatives who do support Liverpool, do so because of their successful period in the 1980s and have been able to support a successful team and then disavow them more recently, some even tentatively following Manchester United... it seems distance makes the transition easier in that regard - they never had to save up for tickets for that particular club.

 

[jolsnogross]

Take a look at Franklin Foer's book "How Soccer Explains the World: An Unlikely Theory of Globalization". The use of "soccer" is a giveaway that the author is American, but the narrative and research largely focus on Europe.

I read it a few years ago but must've given my copy of it away. It provides some background (and maybe sources) about David's description of how our club became 'the Jewish club'. If I recall correctly, there's a chapter in the book about how it originated in the stands with opposition fans calling ours Jews, and our fans embraced it to shove it back at them. The book might even have a time frame and anecdotes about the clubs involved. I think this story is true of one or two other 'Jewish' clubs in Europe too.

If you find out the time frame (when we went from not being the 'Jewish club' to being the 'Jewish club'), and it's not more than 70 or 80 years ago, you could probably make a request of the older SC members to chime in with first or second hand accounts.

As for Liverpool, they were always the main team supported in Ireland, at least until relatively recently. It's often said Man U were the main team supported in Ireland, but that's not true in my experience. I haven't read a reliable history of Liverpool's Irish connection, but immigration and its influence on their fan base is an obvious link. A disparity between Irish support of Liverpool and Everton would be worth looking into though, if one exists. 'The Fields of Athenry' is the Kop's second song after "You'll never walk alone" and that's Irish. While several traditional Irish songs refer to Liverpool (the city, not the club).

Good luck with the dissertation. Maybe when it's done you could write a summary and post it as an article on SC.

 

[Kingstheman]

Good luck with the dissertation. Maybe when it's done you could write a summary and post it as an article on SC.

Seconded.

 

[pigeon_spurs]

Very Interesting Stuff

Cheers for the feedback guys. I will most definitley provide a summary once completed. I have gained a large aray or sources to go over, but keep these all coming I will analyse each and every one. Also thanks for the book recomendation. There is plenty of work for me to be getting on with. For the time being keep it coming, and if people do have first or second hand accounts of their experiences that would be great! Thank again!

 

[Geez]

Do you believe that we are a Jewish Club or is this just presented by the media and popular culture. (my example being Alf Garnett) or was it anti semitism from opposing clubs, and something in which we took for our own.

Eek Example of what? A West Ham fan?

Now Warren Mitchell is a whole different ball game :up:

 

[Azrael]

Cheers for the feedback guys. I will most definitley provide a summary once completed. I have gained a large aray or sources to go over, but keep these all coming I will analyse each and every one. Also thanks for the book recomendation. There is plenty of work for me to be getting on with. For the time being keep it coming, and if people do have first or second hand accounts of their experiences that would be great! Thank again!

Look forward to it.

 

[SpurSince57]

Tottenham once had a huge Jewish population. Most of it has moved out to more 'salubrious' areas and been replaced by other immigrant groups. The area north of the railway line, roughly between White Hart Lane and the North Middlesex Hospital, was known as 'Little Russia' up until WWII; whilst not exclusively Jewish by any means, it was one tough neighbourhood, and police didn't venture there except in pairs.

Down at the Hale, the Harris Lebus furniture factory was the biggest in Europe and possibly the world; its founder was a German Jew and the legend was ‘No Englishman Need Apply’ (for jobs, obviously). How true that was, I don't know. I'd say that the Jewish working class certainly provided a significant element of our support through most of the last century, though.

 

[Spur-of-the-moment]

Not mentioned so far is the area that Jewish refugees settled in London, the Spitalfields/Whitechapel/Stepney area. By the first decade of the 20th century it was said to be the largest Jewish community in Europe. The great majority of Jews in Britain had lived in this small part of the East End before they and their descendants moved to other parts of London and further afield.

I remember there were still visible traces (e.g. Bloom's, the Jewish tailors, the Beigal shops in Brick Lane) until relatively recently. Most, if not all, have now moved out to the suburbs. If I recall correctly, this community would have been made up mostly of the relatively impoverished Jews fleeing antisemitism and the pogroms in Russia and certain parts of Eastern Europe in the period from 1880 onwards, though there were earlier, much smaller, working-class Jewish communities in the area as a result of 19th c. economic migrations from Holland and elsewhere.

I don't know if this is relevant, but could the relatively new Stoke Newington and Edmonton Railway (opened in the 1870s) from Liverpool Street (near Spitalfields) north through Stoke Newington, Stamford Hill and Tottenham have played a crucial role?

I can see how this would have bound together the first community in the Spitalfields/Whitechapel area to communities in Clapton, Stoke Newington, to the first orthodox (later Hasidic) centres of Stamford Hill, and to 'little Russia' of North Tottenham and Edmonton, and maybe other, smaller working class Jewish communities en route.

There are records of a substantial Jewish community with its own synagogue in Tottenham itself from the early 1900s. This may have been the first 'Little Russia'. The second 'Little Russia' appears to have been settled by White Russian refugees from the 1917 Revolution.

For all who were interested in football from the Jewish communities on this railway route, Tottenham Hotspur would have been the local club.

Later, many on this geographical artery would have moved to the more comfortable, less 'rough' areas of Golders Green, Hendon, Barnet and so on, but without losing their affiliations to Tottenham Hotspur. Others moving to these areas could just as easily have selected another local club, Ars*nal, and many did.

What's interesting about the Hasidic community in Stamford Hill (which first formed from Orthodox origins in the 1920s) is that it hasn't moved away from this railway artery. It remains as a highly visible signifier of earlier, broader Jewish associations beginning in Whitechapel and migrating up the railway line to Tottenham and Edmonton. People have tended to point at the geographical proximity of Stamford Hill to White Hart Lane in order to explain the club's Jewish associations, but, if my speculation is correct, it is much more likely that these were related, first, with the big Jewish community in Tottenham itself and, second, with the railway line that connected working-class Jewish communities from their London well-spring in Spitalfields/Whitechapel to centres further north.

It is said that our Jewish support grew most rapidly in the interwar and the immediate post-WW2 periods. The development of this part of the supporter base would, I suppose, also account for the establishment in the next generation of Jewish ownership of the club from the early 1980s.

If what I'm speculating about is true, then Spurs is not quite a 'Jewish club', but it is a club with significant Jewish affiliations geographically and historically.

There is one more interesting story. In 2002 UEFA banned Israel from playing matches on home soil because of the security situation. As a result the Israeli Football Association cast around for somewhere to play their Euro 2004 qualifiers. They approached Spurs and Levy turned them down without giving a reason, though security was thought to to be the issue. John Efron points out that we were the only club approached. Clearly the Jewish reputation of Spurs was sufficient to warrant the approach of the IFA. Despite the fact that Ars*nal has more Jewish supporters (especially over the last couple of decades), Tottenham was seen, if not as a Jewish club, then certainly as a club with the stronger Jewish identity.


Sotm

 

[SpurSince57]

I don't know if this is relevant, but could the relatively new Stoke Newington and Edmonton Railway (opened in the 1870s) from Liverpool Street (near Spitalfields) north through Stoke Newington, Stamford Hill and Tottenham have played a crucial role?

I can see how this would have bound together the first community in the Spitalfields/Whitechapel area to communities in Clapton, Stoke Newington, to the first orthodox (later Hasidic) centres of Stamford Hill, and to 'little Russia' of North Tottenham and Edmonton, and maybe other, smaller working class Jewish communities en route.

It certainly did. The Eastern Counties Railway down the Lea Valley had little impact on Tottenham, but when its successor the Great Eastern opened the Enfield Branch it introduced cheap workingmens' fares. This enabled families to move out of the slum rookeries of the East End, Clerkenwell, etc., to the country—as Tottenham still largely was. It didn't stay that way for long; over the next 30-40 years it had one of the most rapid population growths in the whole country.

 

[pigeon_spurs]

Dissertation Interview (Help)

Hi Guys, (Help Please)

Quick update. The dissertation research is coming along really well. I have lots of information. It is in the stage of focusing it all down and comprising what I have.

I'm writing today to ask for some more help. I am looking for more personal accounts not actually just from Jewish fans. I am looking for non Jewish Tottenham Fans. What I am asking is for people to fill in a questionnaire in an interview form.

My email is [email protected] I am not looking for people to provide their own email address' online. But if you would like to partake in some interviews that would be great. It would really help me provide myself with some primary sources.

Thanks for anyone who has the time to do it.

 

[pigeon_spurs]

Just going over the latest replies. They are of real use. I am trying to gain more personal opinions. I have posted another column asking for people to fill in an online interview/questionnaire and have provided my email address. If anyone could that would be of enormous help.