Does carl still think wipey is world class ?

[Has1978]

as soon as he made 2 bad crosses yesterday, i knew someone would start a mindless thread like this.:roll:



boring

my thoughts exactly. i worry for when he does actually have a bad game.

 

[walworthyid]

Lee, as was said by his PSV manager several years ago, "is nearly always good, occasionally brilliant and never less than average" and so he has proven at Spurs.

He is a far better tackler than he is given credit for and he is quicker and stronger than he is given credit for.

No, he can't cross with his left foot, but that is not his primary role, he can defend and is rarely beaten and that will do me.

The question that many should be asking themselves is how many gamnes he has actually played with a left footed player in front of him? Not many.

I watched the Fulham game and thought Lee was poor going forward, but then I noticed that Steed spent most of the game in central midfield (when we were on the attack) and that whenever Lee brought the ball forward he had nobody ahead of him and was forced to come inside.

If a better player becomes available then great, but as it stands he is way ahead of Bale, Gunter and BAE as far as the ability to play at left-back is concerned.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

south korea with no disrespect....need i go on.

yeah he played for psv..yeh THEY got to the semis..they didnt rate him enough to keep him though did they?

If you check back you'll find they were very pissed off. We only nicked him becasue Arnesen negotiated his contract for PSV and knew the buy-out. Not only did he help them to the CL semis (which they deserved to win) but also won the dutch title. I think you'll find Gus Hiddink (probably one of the best managers worldwide) described him as the best lb in the dutch league.

Lee is a 100% player. I have never seen him have a bad game. He is our most consistant performer (ie the player that most often brings his "A" game). He has great technique, first touch and is always available to receive a pass becaue he is a thinking footballer. And his ability to link with the attack has given us a dimension that we haven't had for years (apart from Atouba briefly - who was also treated badly).

No more silly fucking Lee threads please. You just make yourself look stupid.

 

[snake1]

If you check back you'll find they were very pissed off. We only nicked him becasue Arnesen negotiated his contract for PSV and knew the buy-out. Not only did he help them to the CL semis (which they deserved to win) but also won the dutch title. I think you'll find Gus Hiddink (probably one of the best managers worldwide) described him as the best lb in the dutch league.

Lee is a 100% player. I have never seen him have a bad game. He is our most consistant performer (ie the player that most often brings his "A" game). He has great technique, first touch and is always available to receive a pass becaue he is a thinking footballer. And his ability to link with the attack has given us a dimension that we haven't had for years (apart from Atouba briefly - who was also treated badly).

No more silly fucking Lee threads please. You just make yourself look stupid.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure it was Jol who said he was the best LB in the league (Dutch).

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Under Ramos,whenever Bale is fit,Lee finds himself on the bench.

And Staleri is shit. Ramos agrees with me.

Under Wendy, Bale's barely been fit for more than five minutes and, the few games he did get to play under our new boss, nice lady that she is, it would provide nothing more than the survey of our options at left back - you're telling me that Bale, not even old enough to buy cigarettes, probably still a virgin, barely out of nappies, will usurp a seasoned Prem campaigner who has done everything to earn that spot and nothing to lose it?

Bale is a kid - i don't even expect 90 minutes out of him and i certainly wouldn't want to risk one of the most promising young Welsh talents by running him into the ground in a position that he still doesn't appear to be as confident in as he is further up the pitch, getting involved with the attack - he plays his game far too far up the pitch - at best a wing back, at worst, a left sided midfielder.

 

[stemark44]

I really don't see Lee playing first team football for Spurs next season and I also think Chimbondas place is in serious danger at right back also.

 

[Rocksuperstar]

I really don't see Lee playing first team football for Spurs next season and I also think Chimbondas place is in serious danger at right back also.

but no reason for why they won't then? :shrug: Just a hunch?

Not one person has come up with a good reason for him to be dropped after one average showing so far, there are loads of reasons that he is earning that spot - what's the guy got to do to get a little bit of respect from some of you? He's playing with no cover at all, week in, week out, barely putting a foot wrong and, despite the only goal we conceded against Fulham coming from Chimbonda's poor cover and Robbo fumbling, Lee gets the stick because he fluffs a couple of crosses.

You guys are so fickle, you really piss me off sometimes - you're wrong, Lee is a great left back and a player that many, many teams in the premiership would love to be able to see starting for them. We should count ourselves lucky and get behind the team, instead of pissing and whining about one player who had a couple of bad crosses.

fucks sakes.

 

[stemark44]

Okay,Lee could'nt pass water never mind a ball and Chimbonda lets opponents run past him as if he had'nt a care in the world!

 

[dannythomas]

One thing that this thread shows is that a lot of people don't know what they're talking about to be perfectly blunt.

To say that he is no better than an average squad player is just utterly ridiculous.

Time and time again, in match after match, he stops the crosses hitting the area, yesterday was no different, every single time he was left one on one with an attacker he either won the ball or won a goal kick by hurrying and harassing the attacker.

Now most people on this forum have described Chimbonda as world class, top class, top 4 class and so on and so on at the same time as saying that Lee is average at best.

Last season I did a huge series of threads which showed just how effective each of our fullbacks is when it comes to defending, Lee was way, way, way ahead of Chimbonda defensively, yet still Chimbonda is described as way ahead of Lee in terms of that fabled word "class".

Most people base this opinion on the attacking third and tend to ignore the defensive third where Chimbonda's statistics are marginally better being that he has a few direct assists and a couple of goals. However they tend to be blinded by these stats and fail to see that more Chimbonda led attacks break down than Lee attacks do, and here is where the difference between Lee and ALL our other full-backs that I have seen play in the past few seasons differ, Lee will immediately recover his defensive position, Chimbonda, Bale, and Ekotto don't, which leaves our CB exposed as proved by Chimbonda's wandering act yesterday which left Kaboul in a flap when he had THREE players racing at and beyond him to contend with.

A lot of Lee's attacking play goes un-noticed because only his crossing and direct assists are noticed, the passes which keep the move going remain largely ignored, the fact that his presence in the attacking third creates space for others remains largely ignored, the fact that he feeds the ball into these spaces for others to attack remains largely ignored, the fact that he keeps the attacks alive with simple but effective balls remains largely ignored. If you look past the final pass before a goal, you will see that Lee is involved in a healthy percentage of the goals we score and the chances which we create.

To whoever it was who accused him of wasting chances, I would point you to the numerous games where we have had 15 or more shots on goal and scored only 1 or 2 goals, is that down to Lee's poor attacking or the fact that our group of superstar strikers and midfielders have been extremely wasteful in front of goal for quite a bloody while now?

Those picking apart his crossing ability were the same people who ripped him to shreds at the end of last season, when he was playing cross after cross after cross into the area, putting pass after pass after pass into space in the box for someone to attack in the same way that the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Nolan, Scholes and others do and have done for years. If we had a Gerrard or a Lampard or a Nolan or a Scholes then you would find that Leapy would have a lot more direct assists, but we have midfielders who don't attack the space or balls into it.

As someone else pointed out, we don't have the kind of strikers who will attack crosses either. I said when we were in for Bale that it would be a bit pointless to have him throwing cross after cross after cross in because we have nobody who will take advantage of them and attack the ball, this season, that assessment has been proven to be correct, because once again, very few crosses, even the ones which have been of good quality, have actually been converted, the majority are cleared or in the keepers arms without even a hint of a challenge from our players.

I said it at the time and I'll say it again now, we don't need someone who flings ball after ball into the box hoping someone will get on the end of it, we need someone who is more intelligent than that, someone who will play balls along the floor for Defoe and Bent to run onto and lash home, someone who will play 1-2's with Keane to create chances and take defenders out of the game, someone who can occasionally cross when they have to but who prefers the more intelligent, more skillful and with our team, more effective way of playing. We need Daniel Carvalho!

Back to Leapy though, there are a hell of a lot of people who need to open their eyes to his complete game and to stop being so ignorant towards what he actually brings to the team.

7 mentions of Chimbonda in a post replying to a thread about Lee !

On the point about low crosses cut back for the likes of Defoe , that is exactly what Bale offers but Leapy does not !

I have no objection to Bale playing in front of Lee at LM . It is true that Bale does not look quite as comfortable at LB as he does at LM. Yet. I am not sure though that Ramos will go for that combination in the long run . He prefers more attacking options. But reverting to the original question, Carl, can you honestly say Leapy with all his attacking limitations is one of the top 3 LB's in the world ? If you still think that then I really do think you should change your SC name to Carly ( Carl- Lee , get it ? ) Or Carl, EP ( Carl- Leapy) sorry but it it is late night and I can't think of anything better.

 

[batigol]

One thing that this thread shows is that a lot of people don't know what they're talking about to be perfectly blunt.

To say that he is no better than an average squad player is just utterly ridiculous.

Back to Leapy though, there are a hell of a lot of people who need to open their eyes to his complete game and to stop being so ignorant towards what he actually brings to the team.

Well Carl, I just highlighted the main parts of what you said to point out why I said what I said. You say people don't know what they are talking about which clearly alludes to you knowing what you are talking about and having superior knowledge about football. Now, why is that so? Just because you watch 101 video replays of LYP performances? You see him play the same way we do, on the pitch through the box or at the stadium so what gives you the right to brand others as not knowing what they are talking about when all of us are just forming opinions based on the same viewings from the same source. If you were a coach at Spurs or constantly involved in their practice then I will accept that you should know something more than us but you don't so why claim that others who do not think the same way about LYP don't know what they are talking about.

Why is it ridiculous to say that he is an average squad player? That's your personal opinion isn't it? Formed from your judgments on the player's ability based on spectator evidence. You having a personal opinion doesn't make other opinions utterly ridiculous. Especially when it is not ridiculous at all. You put your point across well but there is no need to term other's opinions as utterly ridiculous especially when it is well within the realm of reason.

You say that people don't open their eyes to LYP's performances and are ignorant of his contributions but they are not so. Just because they prioritise crossing as an essential quality as compared to defending which results in them having a lower opinion of LYP's ability doesn't mean they are ignorant of their contributions.

I have nothing against you personally and I agree wholeheartedly that LYP is a good player whom we need to have in our team but just because others don't think the same don't mean they don't know as much about football as you do. You may not have termed them as ignorant and such but you clearly alluded to it. Otherwise you should elaborate on how you think most people in this thread don't know what they are talking about when they just feel differently to LYP as opposed to your views.

You make your points across and discerning people will read it and get it and if they don't then it's not even worth your effort to write it but there is no need to comment on others not knowing enough when its not even clear how much you or they know about this matter specifically. You have your bias and they have theirs so accept it just as I accept your bias against LYP and Chimbo because those are your opinions; I may not agree with it but I respect them nonetheless.

 

[stevenqoz]

Get a reality check fellas. Lee is not a player an outsider would look at and be immediately impressed by. He does his job in a quiet efficient manner. Unfortunately we live in a society where we want the upgrades and add-ons. Lee doesn't have the shot of a Carlos, is not like a Van Den Hawe or Pearce in being evil, lacks the pace of the young Clichy and doesn't possess a sweet left foot like a Knowles to caress the ball down the line to safety. That said, he does not play for a top team, we have barely dragged ourselves away from mediocrity in his time with us. He is expected to do one and a half jobs because of our policy of avoiding left sided attacking players like the plague. In my eyes he looks a bit out of salts at the moment. If this is a bad run for him then we are getting off lightly....where is he to blame for goals conceded?
Tottenham are an aspirational club and some of our posters seem to doubt whether Lee can take us to the next level we will see.

 

[Babylon22]

Under Wendy, Bale's barely been fit for more than five minutes and, the few games he did get to play under our new boss, nice lady that she is, it would provide nothing more than the survey of our options at left back - you're telling me that Bale, not even old enough to buy cigarettes, probably still a virgin, barely out of nappies, will usurp a seasoned Prem campaigner who has done everything to earn that spot and nothing to lose it?

Bale is a kid - i don't even expect 90 minutes out of him and i certainly wouldn't want to risk one of the most promising young Welsh talents by running him into the ground in a position that he still doesn't appear to be as confident in as he is further up the pitch, getting involved with the attack - he plays his game far too far up the pitch - at best a wing back, at worst, a left sided midfielder.

mate,whenever bale's been fit. Lee has been dropped by Ramos. it's a fact. next season Lee wll be back up for bale at best.And i won't be surprised if he gets sold in thesummer.

and everyone who's worked with bale(Jol,Toshack,George Burley add now Ramos) have seen him as a Left back. Better attacking from deep positions like a roberto carlos,alves etc..

 

[Rocksuperstar]

ahh, see, i was confused for a while there - i'm going on facts and evidence, whereas YOU are able to see into the future - totally didn't realise, sorry mate...

If it is a fact, show me - give me some stat's - i'm no statto, but i give Wendy more credit, she's not stupid and i don't think would risk one of her most promising talents by putting the responsibility like that on his shoulders.

Bale is a kid still, ffs - Even if Ramos does rate Bale, he won't expect him to be the first choice, he might rotate them, but i still cannot, for even half a second understand why you rate Lee so poorly. You don't like him, that much is clear, but from a footballing persepective you seem to allow your personal feelings to cloud your judgement as some of the stuff you guys are saying about him is just plain wrong :shrug:

There are many less accomplished and less talented players in our team but you seem to be able to ignore them by saying "this is a thread about Lee" which, of course, is right, but it's a pointless thread. It's wrong, you're wrong, get over it :up:

 

[Babylon22]

Never said I didn't rate Lee. He is a decent fullback. But Bale is better. And whenever Bale's been fit,Ramos has picked him ahead of Lee.

 

[Legend10]

Never said I didn't rate Lee. He is a decent fullback. But Bale is better. And whenever Bale's been fit,Ramos has picked him ahead of Lee.

Babylon I tend to agree with you that when fit Bale will be Ramos's 1st choice LB, he does tend to like attacking FB's if Alves at sevilla is anything to go by but to date it has been pretty difficult to tell.

Bale was injured with the foot problem picked up at Newcastle when Ramos first joined and missed out on all of his early games with this injury.

He returned to action at the Spammers when Lee was indeed dropped for him.

He then played against Aalborg, however Lee did play RB in that game.

Bale then played and got injured in the next game which was Birmingham at home.

So he hasn't really been available to Ramos that much, that said for the 3 games that he has been fit and available Jaunde has selected him each time, twice in preference to Lee and once when Lee played at RB.

 

[Lanh]

7 mentions of Chimbonda in a post replying to a thread about Lee !

Just pointing out that someone who has cost us plenty of goals through extremely poor defending is considered to a world class fullback by many on here, while someone who has cost us many fewer goals, in more time it has to be said, is considered by many to be average at best.

Carl, can you honestly say Leapy with all his attacking limitations is one of the top 3 LB's in the world ?

I've already answered this once, maybe twice in this thread I'm sure, but the answer is yes. His primary job is to defend and he does that as good, and in a hell of a lot of cases better, than anybody else in the world in his position.

You say people don't know what they are talking about which clearly alludes to you knowing what you are talking about and having superior knowledge about football. Now, why is that so?

It is not alluding to me having superior knowledge at all, in fact it's me deferring to his managers in the game throughout his career. He has always been an extremely valued and highly spoken of left-back and he's had some VERY well respected managers and coaches say things about him. They have a much greater knowledge than me and I dare say anybody on this forum when it comes to football.

Why is it ridiculous to say that he is an average squad player?

It's ridiculous batigol because quite simply as long as Pascal Chimbonda is considered to be "World Class" or "Top 4 Class" then ANY defender who is responsible for less goals conceded than him deserves at least the same level of praise.

Thus it is ridiculous to give less praise. Simple logic.

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, this has been created because of a couple of bad crosses he made in the attacking third, not a mention of Chimbonda's usual wandering act for their goal which left Kaboul horrendously exposed in the same way that it usually does with Dawson.

Not a mention of the fact that whenever we were attacked down our left that unlike his "World Class" fellow full-back, Lee was ALWAYS in attendance, blocked all crosses, closed down and provided excellent link up play, including starting the move for our fourth goal by passing with his head!

You say that people don't open their eyes to LYP's performances and are ignorant of his contributions but they are not so. Just because they prioritise crossing as an essential quality as compared to defending which results in them having a lower opinion of LYP's ability doesn't mean they are ignorant of their contributions.

Fine, if that is what they are doing then they are clearly ignorant of what role full back actually is because first and foremost it is defence, the second is supporting the attack, the third is creating space and options for the attack by overlapping the LM, the fourth is spearheading attacks down the flanks when possible.

The first three he does better than any full-back in our squad. Simple as that. Don't take that as arrogance, many people agree, you only have to read this thread to see that and as I said earlier in this post, many very well respected managers and coaches in the game tend to have the same opinion.

Otherwise you should elaborate on how you think most people in this thread don't know what they are talking about...

I've done it twice now.

 

[Babylon22]

Babylon I tend to agree with you that when fit Bale will be Ramos's 1st choice LB, he does tend to like attacking FB's if Alves at sevilla is anything to go by but to date it has been pretty difficult to tell.

Bale was injured with the foot problem picked up at Newcastle when Ramos first joined and missed out on all of his early games with this injury.

He returned to action at the Spammers when Lee was indeed dropped for him.

He then played against Aalborg, however Lee did play RB in that game.

Bale then played and got injured in the next game which was Birmingham at home.

So he hasn't really been available to Ramos that much, that said for the 3 games that he has been fit and available Jaunde has selected him each time, twice in preference to Lee and once when Lee played at RB.

because chimbonda was forced to play at CB. So 3 times.

 

[Legend10]

because chimbonda was forced to play at CB. So 3 times.

I agree.

Just to carry on I personally would be surprised if Ramos were to on many occasions select Lee at LB over Bale.

Ramos is clearly a manager who likes to be offensive, we can see that with the way thay Sevilla played and what he is already trying to do at Spurs. He had a RB at Sevilla (Alves) who was so offensive in his play that he obviously is happy for his FB's or at least 1 of them to go forward and join in at every opportunity.

Secondly with a fit Ledley playing on the left side of the central defence the LB has some insurance to be more offensive. Also Steed works as hard as any player I have seen for a long time, he constantly helps his FB out.

Thirdly, Bale has a lot of physical advantages over Lee, he is bigger, stronger in the air, I would say quicker and just gives an extra all round physical presence.

Finally Bale has the sweetest of sweet left foot, this has to be an advantage for somebody playing as a LB.

Lee is without doubt a decent LB but I think as we progress Bale will prove himself an automatic choice in this position.

Lee however is a very capable back up.

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Babylon I tend to agree with you that when fit Bale will be Ramos's 1st choice LB, he does tend to like attacking FB's if Alves at sevilla is anything to go by but to date it has been pretty difficult to tell.

Bale was injured with the foot problem picked up at Newcastle when Ramos first joined and missed out on all of his early games with this injury.

He returned to action at the Spammers when Lee was indeed dropped for him.

He then played against Aalborg, however Lee did play RB in that game.

Bale then played and got injured in the next game which was Birmingham at home.

So he hasn't really been available to Ramos that much, that said for the 3 games that he has been fit and available Jaunde has selected him each time, twice in preference to Lee and once when Lee played at RB.

So that's the proof? Because Wendy wanted to run the rule over her entire new squad, gives one of the LB's a run out for a couple of games, one in a waffa group match where i kind of expect the odd second string to be drafted in anyway, and because of three appearences you can tell that our new boss prefers a 17 year old, not got a full prem season even near his belt Bale over a 31 year old, played at CL, World Cup and 2 years in the prem, Lee, who's done nothing to deserve this criticism at all other than not be great in one game :|

Cheers L10, as i said, i'm no statto :up:

 

[Rocksuperstar]

because chimbonda was forced to play at CB. So 3 times.

your argument has lost rather a lot of it's pace - don't you want to give it a rest now? "In my opinion" you're wrong and have mistaken Wendy's desire to assess all of her squad, and the necessity of covering many injuries, as something else.