End of Season review thread

[Spurslove]

It's odd one really. We have achieved a placing I didn't really think we could. But we didn't really play much of the football I thought we would.

I thought our philosophy was going to be higher press, higher tempo football. With the exception of a couple of games it never really materialised.

In AVB's fifth place we scored 8 more and conceded 7 less. Both teams benefitted from a high scoring forward. In AVB's first season I don't think a single game was as good as the two we played against Arsenal and Liverpool under Pochettino, but none were as bad as several we played under Pochettino.

Both managers were blinkered in terms of their tactical inflexibility in formation and both made counter-intuitive selections within that framework. For all the hammerings we received last season under both AVB and Sherwood, we conceded 2 more goals this season. And despite spending half a season under the supposed risk aversion of AVB and the ineptitude of Sherwood's tactical lottery, we still only scored three more goals this season with Kane's contribution.

The one thing I would say is, this league gets harder every season IMO. Money is now rife, scouting, analytics, coaching and tactical awareness is at an all time high - generally speaking - in the EPL now. IMO. So to finish fifth is no mean feat.

Where Liverpool had the perfect shitstorm of circumstances last season they suffered almost the reverse this. Having lost about 30 goals and a tireless, tenacious pit bull of a player in Suarez, they then lost another 25 in Sturridge. They now had CL football every week, a rebellious teenager (trouble as any dad knows) and a load of signings to bed in including one predictably terrible one in Balotelli. This definitely helped us finish 5th, but to be fair, Pochettino managed the Europa (of a fashion), the youngest squad in the league, a league Cup final and still hit fifth. So kudos.

This season only four teams conceded more than us, and only four scored more than us. When it comes to creating chances we have the sixth highest shots in the league, but the 11th highest in the box and 16th in the six yard box. Pochettino has clearly not solved our deficiencies when it comes to creating quality chances.

These attacking and defending deficiencies are partly due to personnel, we surely know this now, but the disappointing thing is that Pochettino hasn't really improved either aspect with coaching or tactics. So far.

We did plenty of good things, we have plenty of the ball, third highest in the league, we make the second highest tackles in the league. We have the youngest team in the league.

You guys all know my feelings about the sacking/mutual consent bullshit of AVB, I think it was the first one I think was plain stupid Levy. I think he was doing a very decent job under difficult parameters and it would have been nice if he'd been given the kind of backing with personnel problems that we've seen Pochettino get this year. I think people not on board or with strong personal agendas (be they players like Adebayor or back room like Sherwood and Freund) should have been cleared out sooner, I think youth integration should have been prioritised over 4th place and allowances made clear for this and I think we'd be two years further down the line. I think we'd have a coach who knows how to win things, who also had a good philosophy and clear ideas and was a better organiser, if slightly more risk averse.

From the get go I have had reservations of Pochettino's ability to marry the defensive discipline required to go with high octane football. I don't think his Southampton team did it well either, conceding 16 goals more than Koeman's. But our defensive foibles this year haven't exactly come as a cost of high tempo football.

Personally I think we made the (slightly) wrong choice of manager for the right reasons. We should have given FDB the keys to the castle, if we really wanted true top to bottom integration and a coach that would oversee a singular youth to first team philosophy.

But If we are going to hire managers with clear philosophies we have to give these guys real time to impart them. We have to try and create an atmosphere, a culture at the club and we have to be understanding as fans.

Pochettino seems to have created a good strong mentality, because despite the criticisms I have we have achieved a damn good fifth place finish. The youthful age of the team excites me, my biggest disappointment is that he didn't get even more kids involved. I think they would have done a better job than the selections he made in their stead.

It's pointless scouring Europe for players to fit a unique type system when you have the raw material to bend and shape in your back yard. Our academy groups play a better brand of high press, high tempo than our first team does, Pochettino should have no hesitation to use them, give them his trust and they will almost certainly reward that trust, at the very, very worst they won't let him down any more than the likes of Paulinho, Davies, Chiriches, Stambouli, Fazio, Soldado etc el.

Bonus points for Pochettoino for sticking with Mason, Bentaleb and Kane and the improvement he's got out of Rose and Vertonghen has looked like his proper self again post Sherwood.

I really want to see more intensity to our play next season, and better organisation, cohesion, going forward and defensively. And if first team players can't get with the program then I want Pochettino to have the bollocks to trust the kids we've spent years training to fulfil that remit.

That is a truly fantastic post which pretty much sums up my own feelings, overall.

I too would rather we'd gone all out for De Boer but we'll never know now whether that would have worked out any better than Pochettino's first season at the helm.

Our defensive deficiencies have been nothing short of alarming, and this should surely be our main priority for attention by whatever means available, to get sorted out over the summer.

So many good and salient points in the above post, brilliantly and eloquently expressed. I guess at the end of the day, we all have to give Pochettno time to build a squad more of his own design, and now that Paul Mitchell, the former supremo at Southampton, has arrived as Head of Recruitment, we have to sit back and observe what transpires next.

On balance, many good points and too many bad ones. Like many Spurs fans, my jury is still out on Pochettino but hey, finishing 5th and getting to a cup final 'aint too shabby for a first attempt.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

He's stubbornness to stand by his choices and philosophy when others were demanding tactical adjustments has too shown a determination and mental strength that will only benefit the players and club moving forward.

It's funny you said this. I was mulling this very notion over this morning. I mentioned tactical rigidity in my post above.

Here we are sitting fifth, with a squad that IMO is not better than the teams in 6th and 7th and not loads better than those in 8th,9th, 10th and 11th. So does that vindicate somewhat Pochettino's tactical rigidity ?

What I have always said is that I don't mind tactical rigidity, there is wisdom in drilling a squad so that it functions like a well drilled machine in which all the parts are familiar with their roles and comfortable in them. The problems for me - and they were the same under AVB - are:

a) Are we rigidly adhering to the best system for the players we have to maximise and balance their skills in the most harmonious way.

b) Is the coach picking the right players for that system.

c) Is the coach getting the players functioning correctly within the system.


i/a)Personally I would love for us switch either completely, or at least alternate with a 433. I think that would suit the players we have better, allow Mason and Bentaleb to pivot off a central protector of the defence and support attacks with their dynamic, neat, quick and incisive passing - allowing Lamela, Eriksen and Chadli to get into the box more - whilst also getting into the box to chip in with goals themselves - both were good at this at youth level.

It would mean players like Lamela and Chadli are more wide forwards than attacking midfielders, with - slightly - more onus on getting into the box and - slightly - less emphasis on defending. There could/would be better cover for overlapping full backs when they bomb on and better protection for the CB's with the extra CM in front of them.

ii/b) I think this has been the most discouraging aspect. We had found a good formula by Febraury. Then that was ditched for Townsend and Chadli and they were continually played despite having a very negative impact on our ability to press the ball high up and retain possession and create any quality incision high up. Eriksen was run into the ground. In a perverse reversal of the Eriksen situation, Lamela's progress was once again interrupted at a time when he was playing well. And the use of Dier as a RB and Bentaleb recently as full backs when we have proper full backs in our development group is also counter productive IMO.

We have Onomah who could have deputised for Eriksen for a couple of games, we have Yedlin, KWP who should be deputising for Walker, we have Ogilvie who should be deputising for Rose/Davies, we have Oduwa and Georgiou who could have had games as wide AM's and Winks and Veljkovic who should have seen more time off the bench and in Europe/Cups.

111/c) Playing Dier as a RB is counterintuitive. If you play inverted wide AM's, then you need FB's that provide the width. And we don't seem to making many quality chances still. IMO what needs to happen is players need to attack as a group more cohesively and defend as a group more cohesively. The two CM's are being asked to do way to much because the front 4 are not being asked to do enough. I think this could be mitigated if we switched to a 433, but if not Pochettino has to get the 4231 system working harder without the ball in both directions.

 

[double0]

It's funny you said this. I was mulling this very notion over this morning. I mentioned tactical rigidity in my post above.

Here we are sitting fifth, with a squad that IMO is not better than the teams in 6th and 7th and not loads better than those in 8th,9th, 10th and 11th. So does that vindicate somewhat Pochettino's tactical rigidity ?

What I have always said is that I don't mind tactical rigidity, there is wisdom in drilling a squad so that it functions like a well drilled machine in which all the parts are familiar with their roles and comfortable in them. The problems for me - and they were the same under AVB - are:

a) Are we rigidly adhering to the best system for the players we have to maximise and balance their skills in the most harmonious way.

b) Is the coach picking the right players for that system.

c) Is the coach getting the players functioning correctly within the system.


i/a)Personally I would love for us switch either completely, or at least alternate with a 433. I think that would suit the players we have better, allow Mason and Bentaleb to pivot off a central protector of the defence and support attacks with their dynamic, neat, quick and incisive passing - allowing Lamela, Eriksen and Chadli to get into the box more - whilst also getting into the box to chip in with goals themselves - both were good at this at youth level.

It would mean players like Lamela and Chadli are more wide forwards than attacking midfielders, with - slightly - more onus on getting into the box and - slightly - less emphasis on defending. There could/would be better cover for overlapping full backs when they bomb on and better protection for the CB's with the extra CM in front of them.

ii/b) I think this has been the most discouraging aspect. We had found a good formula by Febraury. Then that was ditched for Townsend and Chadli and they were continually played despite having a very negative impact on our ability to press the ball high up and retain possession and create any quality incision high up. Eriksen was run into the ground. In a perverse reversal of the Eriksen situation, Lamela's progress was once again interrupted at a time when he was playing well. And the use of Dier as a RB and Bentaleb recently as full backs when we have proper full backs in our development group is also counter productive IMO.

We have Onomah who could have deputised for Eriksen for a couple of games, we have Yedlin, KWP who should be deputising for Walker, we have Ogilvie who should be deputising for Rose/Davies, we have Oduwa and Georgiou who could have had games as wide AM's and Winks and Veljkovic who should have seen more time off the bench and in Europe/Cups.

111/c) Playing Dier as a RB is counterintuitive. If you play inverted wide AM's, then you need FB's that provide the width. And we don't seem to making many quality chances still. IMO what needs to happen is players need to attack as a group more cohesively and defend as a group more cohesively. The two CM's are being asked to do way to much because the front 4 are not being asked to do enough. I think this could be mitigated if we switched to a 433, but if not Pochettino has to get the 4231 system working harder without the ball in both directions.

Points very well put forward and explained. In terms of formation changing to suit the oppossession it can be productive it can also be disstructive as you mentioned. Theres two thoughts maybe more, you have the tacticianist the perceived Brendon Rodgers Mourinho of the EPL as an example, the latter only making imo positional/personale changes not anything drastic like Rodgers who has totally confused the issue with formation leading to tactical changes. Against a systematic philosophy that when played frequently will become drilled like a well oiled machine...I would much rather go with Pochettinhos vision. FdB aswell is in the Pochettinho Arsen Wenger thoughts on team set up and philosophy and tbh I admire this approach and belief for how he wants us to play. I believe it's the best way forward for Tottenham in having an identity and hopefully a structure running through to the development teams.

 

[nicdic]

It's funny you said this. I was mulling this very notion over this morning. I mentioned tactical rigidity in my post above.

Here we are sitting fifth, with a squad that IMO is not better than the teams in 6th and 7th and not loads better than those in 8th,9th, 10th and 11th. So does that vindicate somewhat Pochettino's tactical rigidity ?

What I have always said is that I don't mind tactical rigidity, there is wisdom in drilling a squad so that it functions like a well drilled machine in which all the parts are familiar with their roles and comfortable in them. The problems for me - and they were the same under AVB - are:

a) Are we rigidly adhering to the best system for the players we have to maximise and balance their skills in the most harmonious way.

b) Is the coach picking the right players for that system.

c) Is the coach getting the players functioning correctly within the system.


i/a)Personally I would love for us switch either completely, or at least alternate with a 433. I think that would suit the players we have better, allow Mason and Bentaleb to pivot off a central protector of the defence and support attacks with their dynamic, neat, quick and incisive passing - allowing Lamela, Eriksen and Chadli to get into the box more - whilst also getting into the box to chip in with goals themselves - both were good at this at youth level.

It would mean players like Lamela and Chadli are more wide forwards than attacking midfielders, with - slightly - more onus on getting into the box and - slightly - less emphasis on defending. There could/would be better cover for overlapping full backs when they bomb on and better protection for the CB's with the extra CM in front of them.

ii/b) I think this has been the most discouraging aspect. We had found a good formula by Febraury. Then that was ditched for Townsend and Chadli and they were continually played despite having a very negative impact on our ability to press the ball high up and retain possession and create any quality incision high up. Eriksen was run into the ground. In a perverse reversal of the Eriksen situation, Lamela's progress was once again interrupted at a time when he was playing well. And the use of Dier as a RB and Bentaleb recently as full backs when we have proper full backs in our development group is also counter productive IMO.

We have Onomah who could have deputised for Eriksen for a couple of games, we have Yedlin, KWP who should be deputising for Walker, we have Ogilvie who should be deputising for Rose/Davies, we have Oduwa and Georgiou who could have had games as wide AM's and Winks and Veljkovic who should have seen more time off the bench and in Europe/Cups.

111/c) Playing Dier as a RB is counterintuitive. If you play inverted wide AM's, then you need FB's that provide the width. And we don't seem to making many quality chances still. IMO what needs to happen is players need to attack as a group more cohesively and defend as a group more cohesively. The two CM's are being asked to do way to much because the front 4 are not being asked to do enough. I think this could be mitigated if we switched to a 433, but if not Pochettino has to get the 4231 system working harder without the ball in both directions.

I think some of this criticism is unfair. If the younger players that you mentioned were capable and ready then I'm sure they would have played instead. Pochettino will have a much clearer idea of where these players are up to, where they're at, and how they could perform in the first team, than we can from the occasional youth game.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

6 points off Utd, is not a long way. It's a win at stoke, newcastle and liverpool away from pipping them.

If's, but's, and maybe's.

Man Ure fans could argue the same about taking third place? We are a country mile away from Man Ure and will be for the foreseeable future. Fifth position was secured (very much like our fourth a few seasons ago) due to a meltdown of another side, Liverpool this season and Chel$ea a few seasons ago.

A little luck rather than merit in finishing fifth this season. Not that luck doesn't play a part in football but to say that we are not that far behind Man Ure is stretching it a bit.

 

[talkshowhost86]

If's, but's, and maybe's.

Man Ure fans could argue the same about taking third place? We are a country mile away from Man Ure and will be for the foreseeable future. Fifth position was secured (very much like our fourth a few seasons ago) due to a meltdown of another side, Liverpool this season and Chel$ea a few seasons ago.

A little luck rather than merit in finishing fifth this season. Not that luck doesn't play a part in football but to say that we are not that far behind Man Ure is stretching it a bit.

If you don't finish that far behind a team then by definition you can't be a 'country mile' away from that team.

In terms of the size of the respective clubs I'd agree that we definitely are a country mile behind them, which makes the fact we only finished 6 points behind them relatively impressive.

I don't think anybody is saying that we are suddenly about to overhaul them in the long term, but just recognising that it's a pretty good achievement to finish not far behind a team with practically unlimited resources and a whole host of supposedly world class players.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

If you don't finish that far behind a team then by definition you can't be a 'country mile' away from that team.

In terms of the size of the respective clubs I'd agree that we definitely are a country mile behind them, which makes the fact we only finished 6 points behind them relatively impressive.

I don't think anybody is saying that we are suddenly about to overhaul them in the long term, but just recognising that it's a pretty good achievement to finish not far behind a team with practically unlimited resources and a whole host of supposedly world class players.

Both clubs have new managers in their first season. Both are assembling new teams, tactics and systems. Let's wait until next May to see just how close we are to Man Ure. As much as i love my Spurs i think we have only topped Man Ure in the PL something like twice in twenty years (i think). On both of those occasions the following seasons we were were bloody miles off them, and both of those seasons where we did top them Fergie was rebuilding. LVG is doing the same.

At the end of the day 5th place is the fourth worse losing position, something that i really hope upon hope that Poch can top next season.

COYS!

 

[Spurger King]

At the end of the day 5th place is the fifth worse losing position, something that i really hope upon hope that Poch can top next season.

COYS!

Isn't 5th place the 4th worst losing position?

 

[double0]

If's, but's, and maybe's.

Man Ure fans could argue the same about taking third place? We are a country mile away from Man Ure and will be for the foreseeable future. Fifth position was secured (very much like our fourth a few seasons ago) due to a meltdown of another side, Liverpool this season and Chel$ea a few seasons ago.

A little luck rather than merit in finishing fifth this season. Not that luck doesn't play a part in football but to say that we are not that far behind Man Ure is stretching it a bit.

ManU did not have the same schedule as we did in terms of games played. We finished above them last season and were 6 pts behind that to me is not miles apart.

 

[Davious]

I voted 'Below Expectations' simply because I expected Kaboul & Capoue to play important roles this season and I'm disappointed how things played out. Most of us were crying out for Kaboul to return to fitness and create a solid partnership with Vertonghen...and Capoue was one of my favourite signings from that infamous transfer window. I felt that some players deserved more time on the field but we don't really know what goes on in training & behind the scenes

I feel that Eriksen's playing time could have been managed better and I would have liked to have seen more rotation, but I feel Pochettino has a certain stubbornness when it comes to a playing system & team selection

I'm more than happy with 5th position but I think we are incredibly lucky to finish there!

Rose & Kane have exceeded immensely though! Amazing!

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

Isn't 5th place the 4th worst losing position?

Correct! and corrected my post!

Banana and cold ice for that boy.......you son are a winner!

 

[olliec]

Four big highlights for me:

Danny Rose proving all us doubters, including me wrong
Harry Kane scoring 31 goals
Us finishing above Liverpool
Brenden making an absolute fool of himself by saying what he did at the beginning of the season.

 

[Spurger King]

Correct! and corrected my post!

Banana and cold ice for that boy.......you son are a winner!

Ah, banana and cold ice...my favourite!

I tend to agree with the sentiment of your post. We may be financially limited in comparison to other clubs, but we should always be aiming as high as possible. Yes people will say that as a club paying the 6th highest wages we should consider this season as punching above our weight (and I can certainly understand why), but I honestly think that if we can instil some confidence, belief, and a real winning attitude throughout the squad, we'd get considerably better results.

After the United defeat our players looked visibly resigned to missing out on the CL. On the other hand, after Arsenal lost to us at the Lane, they dusted themselves off and played with complete belief for the rest of the season, and that belief saw them steam roll teams that we struggled against.

 

[225]

I voted 'Below Expectations' simply because I expected Kaboul & Capoue to play important roles this season and I'm disappointed how things played out. Most of us were crying out for Kaboul to return to fitness and create a solid partnership with Vertonghen...and Capoue was one of my favourite signings from that infamous transfer window. I felt that some players deserved more time on the field but we don't really know what goes on in training & behind the scenes

I feel that Eriksen's playing time could have been managed better and I would have liked to have seen more rotation, but I feel Pochettino has a certain stubbornness when it comes to a playing system & team selection

I'm more than happy with 5th position but I think we are incredibly lucky to finish there!

Rose & Kane have exceeded immensely though! Amazing!

I think Kaboul, Dembele and Walker have all been a bit underwhelming for the most part, having promised much.

 

[vigospur]

If's, but's, and maybe's.

Man Ure fans could argue the same about taking third place? We are a country mile away from Man Ure and will be for the foreseeable future. Fifth position was secured (very much like our fourth a few seasons ago) due to a meltdown of another side, Liverpool this season and Chel$ea a few seasons ago.

A little luck rather than merit in finishing fifth this season. Not that luck doesn't play a part in football but to say that we are not that far behind Man Ure is stretching it a bit.

United may be a country mile ahead of us next season but not this one. They have under performed and relied on their keeper far too much.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Points very well put forward and explained. In terms of formation changing to suit the oppossession it can be productive it can also be disstructive as you mentioned. Theres two thoughts maybe more, you have the tacticianist the perceived Brendon Rodgers Mourinho of the EPL as an example, the latter only making imo positional/personale changes not anything drastic like Rodgers who has totally confused the issue with formation leading to tactical changes. Against a systematic philosophy that when played frequently will become drilled like a well oiled machine...I would much rather go with Pochettinhos vision. FdB aswell is in the Pochettinho Arsen Wenger thoughts on team set up and philosophy and tbh I admire this approach and belief for how he wants us to play. I believe it's the best way forward for Tottenham in having an identity and hopefully a structure running through to the development teams.

I would also add, as a counter argument to my own argument, most managers make odd selections that seem or indeed are counter-intuitive to their tactics. Wenger is atrocious tactically at times. Mourinho occasionally gets it very wrong too. LVG and Pelligrini have made utter pigs ears of their selections and tactics this season as has Rodgers.

Like I said, I don't mind a manager with a rigid adherence to a system. A coached ethos is more important to me, evidence that no matter what formation or tactics you apply the team understand how to work it cohesively.

 

[225]

Hows this for a infographic?

Look at third from bottom...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32886670

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think some of this criticism is unfair. If the younger players that you mentioned were capable and ready then I'm sure they would have played instead. Pochettino will have a much clearer idea of where these players are up to, where they're at, and how they could perform in the first team, than we can from the occasional youth game.

I really hate this argument. At what point does a kid become precisely "ready". Most of these kids have been training part time since they were 10/11/12 and full time since they were 16. Every day training to play football. I'm not advocating we hand any of them a place and say it's yours for 38 games. But at some point we have to trust our coaching and our faith in the process that has had us coach them every day for several years.

You will say send them on loan and let them learn, but for players like Mason and now Winks and Onomah that is not always the best course of action. These are players who's game isn't necessarily going to be suited by trundling around with shit kickers in lower leagues.

Get them integrating and training with the first team players, used to each others game and let them have some sub time, cup time and then proper game time.

 

[willy white wonka]

We're the 5th best team in England right now, considering the balls-up with the Bale money (mostly) and the transitional nature of having had 3 managers in a short space of time, bringing in a new way of playing with an inherited squad, plus being forced to tighten our belt because of the new stadium, that's not at all bad is it? Finishing higher than Liverpool and only 2 wins behind Man U, plus a cup final - I don't think we could have seriously asked for more. But we must kick on from that position next season or it will all be in vain, I'm not saying 4th necessarily but certainly more consistency and especially a better goal difference. There won't be the same excuses in 2015-16 either. Over to you Poch.

 

[nicdic]

I really hate this argument. At what point does a kid become precisely "ready". Most of these kids have been training part time since they were 10/11/12 and full time since they were 16. Every day training to play football. I'm not advocating we hand any of them a place and say it's yours for 38 games. But at some point we have to trust our coaching and our faith in the process that has had us coach them every day for several years.

You will say send them on loan and let them learn, but for players like Mason and now Winks and Onomah that is not always the best course of action. These are players who's game isn't necessarily going to be suited by trundling around with shit kickers in lower leagues.

Get them integrating and training with the first team players, used to each others game and let them have some sub time, cup time and then proper game time.

I don't know when a kid becomes "ready", just as you don't. I'd like to see more of our youth prospects come through as much as the next guy, but I'm also happy to trust the manager's judgement on when that is. He see's them much more regularly than any of us will, and will know if and when they are ready and deserving of minutes here and there.

I'm not necessarily for or against loans in a hard and fast way. Some players will need them, and they'll be hugely beneficial, some players won't. Again, I trust the staff to get that right.

A number of the kids have trained with the first team and been involved in things whether they've got minutes or not, and hopefully as the players progress they'll earn the chances.

I do wonder if our increasing attention to the youth football at our club is fostering a sense of impatience and potentially causing us to overrate players. I'm excited about the future, and hope they get the chances to do it with us, but it seems to me like we're doing a decent job, and I'm happy to trust those he see the players every day to make the judgement.