England Woman’s Team

WalkerboyUK

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#61
The Ebola comment should have been a sackable offense.
Well that depends on the context.
We've heard the side of a player who has an agenda.
The way I read it was that it was probably an off-the-cuff/banter comment, not something that was in any way meant to come across as racist.
It was silly, but a sackable offence??

I was talking to a guy at work about a conversation we'd overheard, which was basically a couple of guys all trying to get one up on each other.
My statement to this dude was that "it's like gorillas beating their chests to show who's in charge".
Guy I said it to is black - he laughed and completely agreed.
Now, had I said that and one of the guys we were talking about was black, it's easy to be misconstrued as racist, because people don't always understand the context.

So going back to Eniola Aluko, she clearly has an agenda against Sampson.
She was never going to let up until she go some form of justice, despite TWO investigations clearing him of any wrong-doing.
I think the celebration after the first goal on Tuesday shows what the players opinions on the whole matter are.

However, we clearly now have evidence of something else Sampson appears to have done.
What's wrong is the likes of Aluoko and Curtis Woodhouse (he is just one example I saw on Twitter), claiming this sacking was justice for his blatant racist tendencies...
 

dontcallme

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#62
Well that depends on the context.
We've heard the side of a player who has an agenda.
The way I read it was that it was probably an off-the-cuff/banter comment, not something that was in any way meant to come across as racist.
It was silly, but a sackable offence??

I was talking to a guy at work about a conversation we'd overheard, which was basically a couple of guys all trying to get one up on each other.
My statement to this dude was that "it's like gorillas beating their chests to show who's in charge".
Guy I said it to is black - he laughed and completely agreed.
Now, had I said that and one of the guys we were talking about was black, it's easy to be misconstrued as racist, because people don't always understand the context.

So going back to Eniola Aluko, she clearly has an agenda against Sampson.
She was never going to let up until she go some form of justice, despite TWO investigations clearing him of any wrong-doing.
I think the celebration after the first goal on Tuesday shows what the players opinions on the whole matter are.

However, we clearly now have evidence of something else Sampson appears to have done.
What's wrong is the likes of Aluoko and Curtis Woodhouse (he is just one example I saw on Twitter), claiming this sacking was justice for his blatant racist tendencies...
What do you mean she clearly has an agenda?

She has complained about racist comments. Does everyone who complains about racism someone with an agenda?
 

Maxtremist

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#63
Well that depends on the context.
We've heard the side of a player who has an agenda.
The way I read it was that it was probably an off-the-cuff/banter comment, not something that was in any way meant to come across as racist.
It was silly, but a sackable offence??

I was talking to a guy at work about a conversation we'd overheard, which was basically a couple of guys all trying to get one up on each other.
My statement to this dude was that "it's like gorillas beating their chests to show who's in charge".
Guy I said it to is black - he laughed and completely agreed.
Now, had I said that and one of the guys we were talking about was black, it's easy to be misconstrued as racist, because people don't always understand the context.

So going back to Eniola Aluko, she clearly has an agenda against Sampson.
She was never going to let up until she go some form of justice, despite TWO investigations clearing him of any wrong-doing.
I think the celebration after the first goal on Tuesday shows what the players opinions on the whole matter are.

However, we clearly now have evidence of something else Sampson appears to have done.
What's wrong is the likes of Aluoko and Curtis Woodhouse (he is just one example I saw on Twitter), claiming this sacking was justice for his blatant racist tendencies...
Okay, I know I am filling up this thread but I have to so jump in at this point. Whilst yes he was cleared, they're reopening it again as they've had even more new evidence come in. In doing this, they've also admitted that they haven't done those inquiries well. For both inquiries, they never actually questioned Aluko or any of her teammates which is questionable in of its own right, so whilst yes he was cleared twice, they were far from the greatest inquiries in the first place.

As for the rest of this, he also made reference to one of the mixed raced girls on the team likely having a background of arrests based on the fact that she's mixed race. So it's more than just the one comment to Aluko. And as Aluko has said for this, at the time she laughed at the comment but it did make her feel uncomfortable and the more she thought about it/processed it the worse it became for her so that she reported it.
 

WalkerboyUK

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#64
What do you mean she clearly has an agenda?

She has complained about racist comments. Does everyone who complains about racism someone with an agenda?
I mean she wasn't going to give up until she succeeded in getting him sacked.
She would have pursued investigation after investigation given the opportunity.
She took £80k and then went public when the investigation was closed. Has she handed that cash back now, or donated to charity??

All I'm saying is that he may well have made a comment, but was it racist?? That's open to interpretation.
In her interpretation it was (but only after she was left out of the England squad), in the opinion of others it wasn't.

Didn't this incident happen in 2014/2015?
If so, anyone with an ounce of conviction that they were racially abused would have refused to play for England under Sampson... She carried on playing for another 12-18 months!!
 
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dontcallme

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#65
I mean she wasn't going to give up until she succeeded in getting him sacked.
She would have pursued investigation after investigation given the opportunity.
She took £80k and then went public when the investigation was closed. Has she handed that cash back now, or donated to charity??

All I'm saying is that he may well have made a comment, but was it racist?? That's open to interpretation.
In her interpretation it was (but only after she was left out of the England squad), in the opinion of others it wasn't.
Wow, this is such a typical "lets attack and discredit someone making a complaint."

Every rape victim accusing someone famous is called a slut and a money grabber regardless of the facts.

Everyone complaining of being a victim of racism has their name tarnished.

I really hoped we were moving past this embarrassing nonsense.
 

WalkerboyUK

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#66
Wow, this is such a typical "lets attack and discredit someone making a complaint."

Every rape victim accusing someone famous is called a slut and a money grabber regardless of the facts.

Everyone complaining of being a victim of racism has their name tarnished.

I really hoped we were moving past this embarrassing nonsense.
I also thought we lived in a world where everyone is considered innocent until proven guilty...
Like I said - if she was that convinced she was being bullied she would have refused to play for England.
Nope... she carried on for two more years!!
She only piped up after being dropped.

Alex Scott, who is mixed race, said that she never encountered anything that would be considered racist or bullying under Sampson.

When you work in a group, under close, high pressure situations, especially when away at a tournament for a month or so, there are bound to be moments of friction etc. No different to being in a family environment, where things are said in heat of the moment.
Wouldn't surprise me if this sort of thing happens within PL clubs throughout the season, but there's an apology, acceptance that it wasn't meant with any seriousness, and the players move on.
 

dontcallme

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#67
I also thought we lived in a world where everyone is considered innocent until proven guilty...
Like I said - if she was that convinced she was being bullied she would have refused to play for England.
Nope... she carried on for two more years!!
She only piped up after being dropped.
So everyone complaining about racist abuse, sexism etc should just quit immediately?

He hasn't been accused of a crime, so what has innocent until proven guilty got to do with anything?

You are simply victim blaming and I find it appalling.
 

Maxtremist

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#68
I mean she wasn't going to give up until she succeeded in getting him sacked.
She would have pursued investigation after investigation given the opportunity.
She took £80k and then went public when the investigation was closed. Has she handed that cash back now, or donated to charity??

All I'm saying is that he may well have made a comment, but was it racist?? That's open to interpretation.
In her interpretation it was (but only after she was left out of the England squad), in the opinion of others it wasn't.

Didn't this incident happen in 2014/2015?
If so, anyone with an ounce of conviction that they were racially abused would have refused to play for England under Sampson... She carried on playing for another 12-18 months!!
As Aluko said, at first she laughed at the comment but then at time when on she found it more uncomfortable and ultimately decided to report it.

You're starting to show signs of victim blaming which is a a worrying stance to have I feel. Different people process things differently and on a scale like this where it is affecting you playing for your country which is kinda the peak for a lot of players careers, it's not as easy as just suddenly stopping playing for them sadly.

The comment is indeed open to interpretation... she interpreted it as racist.
 

dontcallme

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#69
As Aluko said, at first she laughed at the comment but then at time when on she found it more uncomfortable and ultimately decided to report it.

You're starting to show signs of victim blaming which is a a worrying stance to have I feel. Different people process things differently and on a scale like this where it is affecting you playing for your country which is kinda the peak for a lot of players careers, it's not as easy as just suddenly stopping playing for them sadly.

The comment is indeed open to interpretation... she interpreted it as racist.
And she wasn't the only complainant.
 

WalkerboyUK

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#70
So everyone complaining about racist abuse, sexism etc should just quit immediately?

He hasn't been accused of a crime, so what has innocent until proven guilty got to do with anything?

You are simply victim blaming and I find it appalling.
Pardon???
He was accused of using racist language, which is an offence nowadays.
He was found not guilty...

The comment is indeed open to interpretation... she interpreted it as racist.
An investigation interpreted it as not racist...

That's where it should all end, unless any further investigation finds him guilty.

Yes, it was a dick comment to make, but like I said, not something that should be punished with a sacking. Let's not also forget, there was a massive Ebola outbreak in 2014, so as light-hearted as he probably felt the comment was, there might have been some meaning behind it, but again not in racist manner.
 

Maxtremist

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#71
Pardon???
He was accused of using racist language, which is an offence nowadays.
He was found not guilty...



An investigation interpreted it as not racist...

That's where it should all end.
Except no, that's not where it should end because...

Okay, I know I am filling up this thread but I have to so jump in at this point. Whilst yes he was cleared, they're reopening it again as they've had even more new evidence come in. In doing this, they've also admitted that they haven't done those inquiries well. For both inquiries, they never actually questioned Aluko or any of her teammates which is questionable in of its own right, so whilst yes he was cleared twice, they were far from the greatest inquiries in the first place.

As for the rest of this, he also made reference to one of the mixed raced girls on the team likely having a background of arrests based on the fact that she's mixed race. So it's more than just the one comment to Aluko. And as Aluko has said for this, at the time she laughed at the comment but it did make her feel uncomfortable and the more she thought about it/processed it the worse it became for her so that she reported it.
 

dontcallme

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#72
Pardon???
He was accused of using racist language, which is an offence nowadays.
He was found not guilty...



An investigation interpreted it as not racist...

That's where it should all end, unless any further investigation finds him guilty.

Yes, it was a dick comment to make, but like I said, not something that should be punished with a sacking. Let's not also forget, there was a massive Ebola outbreak in 2014, so as light-hearted as he probably felt the comment was, there might have been some meaning behind it, but again not in racist manner.
But this was not a legal case.

More than one player has made a complaint about him making racist remarks. Any company or organisation will investigate this and take it very seriously. It does not have to go to court.

He was also found to be taking part in seriously inappropriate behaviour in a previous position.

You are attacking the girl, her reasons and her credibility but don't seem to give a shit about what he has done.
 

WalkerboyUK

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#73
But this was not a legal case.

More than one player has made a complaint about him making racist remarks. Any company or organisation will investigate this and take it very seriously. It does not have to go to court.

He was also found to be taking part in seriously inappropriate behaviour in a previous position.

You are attacking the girl, her reasons and her credibility but don't seem to give a shit about what he has done.
I personally don't find his ebola comment to be anything malicious, but I wasn't there...
The only person that can take that personally is Aluoko.

His comment to the other player about being arrested, again, from what I read, it's all about context and it wasn't a serious comment.

I'm not intending to attack Aluoko, but I'm sorry, if you have strong conviction that you believe you were racially abused and bullied, you don't go and continue playing for that manager. You raise the issue instantly with the FA, not wait until you're out of the squad because someone else has replaced you.

If that happens in the workplace anywhere else you go straight to the HR department and take it from there.

It just doesn't sit comfortably that she was happy to play for him under those circumstances... Yet she clearly was.

I'm not sure a further investigation is going to be infallible either.
Every element seems to have now gone public. It's 2+ yrs since the comments were made.
I can't remember a conversation I had last week let alone 2 years ago.
Now, on the one hand, that very reasoning may be why he was cleared, but on the other, the new evidence (presumably in the fashion of statements from players) could also not be 100% accurate.
The evidence that was available at the time of the investigation wasn't enough to find him guilty.
It seems now that more evidence has come to light that might swing things the other way, but we will have to wait to find out.
In summary, the investigation took to long to take place, partly because Aluoko waited so long to make the claims.
It's the same reason that the likes of Rolf, Stuart Hall, Max Clifford etc were found not guilty of some charges, but guilty of others - depends on accuracy of evidence.
 
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Maxtremist

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#74
I personally don't find his ebola comment to be anything malicious, but I wasn't there...
The only person that can take that personally is Aluoko.

His comment to the other player about being arrested, again, from what I read, it's all about context and it wasn't a serious comment.

I'm not intending to attack Aluoko, but I'm sorry, if you have strong conviction that you believe you were racially abused and bullied, you don't go and continue playing for that manager. You raise the issue instantly with the FA, not wait until you're out of the squad because someone else has replaced you.

If that happens in the workplace anywhere else you go straight to the HR department and take it from there.

It just doesn't sit comfortably that she was happy to play for him under those circumstances... Yet she clearly was.
So you're of the belief that everyone just instantly knows how they feel about something? Cause that shit ain't true I can tell you right there. There's been many a times I've let racist comments against me slide at first 'cause I'm not sure how to deal with it at the time or not sure how to process it straight away and it takes some time before it sinks in. Thankfully these haven't directly affected my working conditions.

As strongly as she believes she was racially abused, you also have to take into consideration how much of an implication this has on her career and livelihood, not to mention the poor history of dealing with instances like this in the past. In that case and with that context it's easy to see why Aluko wouldn't have just automatically dropped out the moment it happened (and again factoring in how long it takes to process things.

As for how serious his comments were or not... if anything that's part of the issue. Whilst he may not have meant them maliciously it doesn't change how people react or are affected by them, and I think that's a side of racism and racist comments a lot of people forget or neglect. Just because I don't intend for my words to hurt someone doesn't mean they won't or there aren't repercussions for them.
 

aliyid

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#75
Wow, this is such a typical "lets attack and discredit someone making a complaint."

Every rape victim accusing someone famous is called a slut and a money grabber regardless of the facts.

Everyone complaining of being a victim of racism has their name tarnished.

I really hoped we were moving past this embarrassing nonsense.
I'm actually with @WalkerboyUK on this one. Her allegations are based on off-hand comments that i don't believe are racially motivated. Christ, I even made a few Ebola jokes around that time as a friend of mine moved to Africa with work a few months before the outbreak.

All of the accusations have been twisted and taken out of context so that - when viewed in isolation - they appear to be racist.

I don't for one second know the guy or have any insight on if he is or isn't racist but I've not seen or heard anything so far that would suggest to me that he is (however saying that I also don't know full details behind the Bristol case either).

People need to be careful not to jump to conclusions based on media hype rather than cold hard evidence.
 

dontcallme

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#76
I'm actually with @WalkerboyUK on this one. Her allegations are based on off-hand comments that i don't believe are racially motivated. Christ, I even made a few Ebola jokes around that time as a friend of mine moved to Africa with work a few months before the outbreak.

All of the accusations have been twisted and taken out of context so that - when viewed in isolation - they appear to be racist.

I don't for one second know the guy or have any insight on if he is or isn't racist but I've not seen or heard anything so far that would suggest to me that he is (however saying that I also don't know full details behind the Bristol case either).

People need to be careful not to jump to conclusions based on media hype rather than cold hard evidence.
People need to understand you cannot make comments like he has made in the workplace. It's not media hype, we know what he said.

Regardless of intent you don't make comments like that at work
 

aliyid

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#77
People need to understand you cannot make comments like he has made in the workplace. It's not media hype, we know what he said.

Regardless of intent you don't make comments like that at work
I made a similar joke last week with an American guy who lives in Tampa about the hurricane, that doesn't make me xenophobic but if twisted and taken out of context it could look like I was ridiculing him for having his home destroyed.... Context is everything and from what I've heard about his Ebola comment it wasn't racially motivated in any way
 

dontcallme

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#78
I made a similar joke last week with an American guy who lives in Tampa about the hurricane, that doesn't make me xenophobic but if twisted and taken out of context it could look like I was ridiculing him for having his home destroyed.... Context is everything and from what I've heard about his Ebola comment it wasn't racially motivated in any way
If you made that joke to an American colleague at work, he took offence and made a complaint then you would be in trouble.

Do you not understand the difference between what you can say to a friend and what can be said at work?

Context is important but is not everything. You do have to be careful with what you say at work. Simply saying you didn't mean anything by it is a very weak defence.
 

aliyid

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#79
If you made that joke to an American colleague at work, he took offence and made a complaint then you would be in trouble.

Do you not understand the difference between what you can say to a friend and what can be said at work?

Context is important but is not everything. You do have to be careful with what you say at work. Simply saying you didn't mean anything by it is a very weak defence.
You can't get tone across through quotes but from everything I've seen there was nothing nasty, spiteful, accusatory or even slightly racist about the 'joke'.

“We were in the hotel. Everybody was excited. It was a big game. On the wall, there was a list of the family and friends who were coming to watch us and I just happened to be next to Mark. He asked me if I had anyone who would be there and I said I had family coming over from Nigeria. ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Nigeria? Make sure they don’t bring Ebola with them.’
If said in an angry manner "Make sure they don't bring Ebola with them" as he storms off then yes it could be racially motivated

but

If said in a chatty light hearted manner of "(ha) make sure they don't bring any Ebola over with them". I hate the phrase 'banter' but a football environment has far more banter of this kind than a typical office job.
 

dontcallme

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#80
You can't get tone across through quotes but from everything I've seen there was nothing nasty, spiteful, accusatory or even slightly racist about the 'joke'.


If said in an angry manner "Make sure they don't bring Ebola with them" as he storms off then yes it could be racially motivated

but

If said in a chatty light hearted manner of "(ha) make sure they don't bring any Ebola over with them". I hate the phrase 'banter' but a football environment has far more banter of this kind than a typical office job.
Football is evolving past that mentality.

If Gareth Southgate made the same comments he'd be fired.

In the workplace you have to be careful with what you say. Just because you don't mean any offence doesn't mean you have the right to say it.
 
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