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Failure of our pressing game

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
14,404
30,804
I thought we should have a thread to discuss the problems with our off the ball play. When AVB came to Spurs we were all sold on his defensive tactics being based around a high tempo pressing game with a high back line. It appears that AVB has been trying to get his side to play in this manner but it clearly has not worked as of yet. When we try to press we appear dis-jointed, too open and the opposition not actually that flustered. Personally I think there are two reasons for this. The back line and the midfield formation.

The back line issues have been discussed to death in other threads but I thought its worth bringing up because the whole pressing game has to start form the back. The midfield can not press high without the defence moving up because it creates too much space between the lines. The forwards can not press without the midfield pressing, because they will just be outnumbered and passed around by any mildly competent defence.

Earlier in the season we really allowed ourselves to get deep as the game went on, this meant that the pressing midfield suddenly found they were leaving big gaps between the lines and were getting cut up. Seeing the ensuing chaos they stopped pressing and full on dropped in to the defensive line. The unchallenged opposition then pinned us in our 1/3rd and came at us again and again and again unchallenged. I'm not sure who was in charge of the defence but I have a feeling that it was Gallas who should have been taking responsibility. Perhaps AVB should have been picking up on it? We've lately started pressing higher but have not had the right players to do it. Gallas, whilst putting in some awesome performances, has not had the pace to recover from mistakes. Walker has been off form and as some have controversially mentioned; been playing oppo strikers onside as he tries to protect the space behind the slow Gallas.

Against Lazio we finally had a back four who could really play the high line to the extreme. They struggled with not being used to the system, but that is expected and will improve. You could also clearly see the intended effect of the sweeper keeper with the set-up and it certainly looks like something worth working on. So Verts, Caulker and Lloris improves this part. Despite that improvement however the team as a whole still didn't look right which brings me to the next point; the midfield set up.

Rather than playing the 4-3-3 like AVB had used at Porto we have been forced in to using the 4-2-3-1. It hasn't looked pretty in the attacking sense and it hasn't been effective in a defensive one. I would like to see us move on to a 4-3-3. Leaving out the attacking side of the argument for another thread, this formation affects the pressing side of our game for a number of reasons. In a 4-3-3 there is a genuine midfield 3 where, although there will be a more defensively minded midfielder, an all-rounder and a more attacking player, they are all still midfielders. They all attack, defend and pass, playing in a fluid style. The 4-2-3-1 has the two deep laying midfielders and the man behind the striker. Because a midfield 3 is far less narrow than a midfield 2 it allows the wingers to press the oppo full backs high up the pitch, as a midfielder can always cover behind. A midfield 2 cannot cover across like this as comfortably because it leaves space in the middle of the pitch and although the man behind the striker could drop in to cover, they are often left in no mans land. That's why Dempsey and Siggurdson have looked so lost in those roles this year. They neither hunt down the defending players on the ball nor help dominate the midfield.

So my argument is we should play a midfield 3 of Sandro, Carrol and Dembele. A genuine 3, not Sandro and Carroll sitting and Dembele behind the striker. I'd assume Sandro to be the middle man as he will be naturally inclined to be the more defensively minded. I think set up like this, after some match practice, our team can press high as a unit and dominate the opposition. Bale and Lennon will be given the chance to cause havoc for fullbacks trying to pass the ball out, as Dembele or Carroll can protect the space behind. With the ball we will have far more fluidity and be less predictable. Dembele will probably spearhead attacks but Carroll and Sandro will also have chances to drive with ball as the others take turns to cover.

4-3-3. More effective, more attractive. (Especially when Ade comes back :) )
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I (and others) have been saying the same about 433 for a long time (think I even mentioned it in the Lazio ratings thread) so agree with this.

The stuff about Walker playing opposition onside because he's been covering Gallas's arse is just utter rubbish. Walker is just a dim, poor footballer whose mistakes cannot be blamed on Gallas. And I would bet Gallas is still quicker in a straight line and on the the turn in recovery than Dawson, Caulker & possibly Vertonghen.

It was was noticeable in several games lately that we are trying to play a good defensive line (i also mentioned this v ManC and Lazio) and catching people offside, but defensively that was our worst performance for weeks on Thursday, with (a very ordinary) Lazio getting through several times due to poor application and personal mistakes by players without Gallas being there to blame.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
54,775
99,336
Definitely agree with the overall gist of this, whether AVB will try it in the near future I don't know.

I watched the Villa/Arsenal game tonight, and by the fuck did Villa work hard off the ball and totally had the better of them for the majority of the game - they didn't win, deserved to I might add, but I don't think we've ever had the better of them like that in recent times.

We rarely seem to be able to do the basics well enough, and our recent success has been down to having some outstanding individuals in the side. AC Milan is a stand out performance from that point of view, but we've been struggling with the basics for far too long now and its the single biggest hindrance to our progression IMO.
 

$hoguN

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2005
26,626
34,700
I (and others) have been saying the same about 433 for a long time (think I even mentioned it in the Lazio ratings thread) so agree with this.

The stuff about Walker playing opposition onside because he's been covering Gallas's arse is just utter rubbish. Walker is just a dim, poor footballer whose mistakes cannot be blamed on Gallas. And I would bet Gallas is still quicker in a straight line and on the the turn in recovery than Dawson, Caulker & possibly Vertonghen.

It was was noticeable in several games lately that we are trying to play a good defensive line (i also mentioned this v ManC and Lazio) and catching people offside, but defensively that was our worst performance for weeks on Thursday, with (a very ordinary) Lazio getting through several times due to poor application and personal mistakes by players without Gallas being there to blame.
Gallas has been awful this season mate. Against Arsenal and Chelsea he was constantly the reason they managed to break by not stepping up with the rest of the defence.
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,362
43,015
Gallas has been awful this season mate. Against Arsenal and Chelsea he was constantly the reason they managed to break by not stepping up with the rest of the defence.

Over the course of the season, Walker has cost us far more than Gallas but both are surplus to requirements IMHO.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,179
48,764
My only worry with the sort of 433 advocated is that we don't have enough goal scorers to make it work. At least one of the midfield 3 should have goals in them, Dembele whilst scoring in Holland, had a poor time in front of goal for Fulham, the other two have no goal scoring pedigree.

You also need goals from the the side, whilst Bale should be capable of this, he still hasn't managed to add more goals playing further forward in a 4231 than when we played a more 4411 or 442. Lennon will never be a consistent scorer, his shooting is very (pardon the pun) hit or miss. He's more of a scorer of important goals than a reliable scorer.

However, saying all that, anything is worth a try given the disjointed performances of late. We need a spark from somewhere, and as we don't have a classic "No. 10" to play behind the centre froward, maybe 433 would see more goals come from hither unseen sources.
 

YiddoBirdy

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2012
541
897
Not sure about this, I feel Adebayor/Defoe will be to isolated. If you look at the teams who have used 433 successfully such as Barcelona and AVB's Porto the wide players supported the striker and acted as inside forwards, I don't think Bale and Lennon will be comfortable in these roles. Also they have/had a deep lying play maker who can dictate the play. IMO I do not believe are players are suitable to play in this formation.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Gallas has been awful this season mate. Against Arsenal and Chelsea he was constantly the reason they managed to break by not stepping up with the rest of the defence.

I disagree but I can't be arsed to argue about the whys and wherefore of Gallas. He's past his best but nowhere near warranting of the criticism he's been given and I'll leave it at that.

But to suggest Walker's problems are somehow because of Gallas is just utter bollocks. Walker's problem's are completely of his own making.
 

ShelfSide18

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2006
8,386
3,122
I think the failure of our pressing game is, not that surprisingly, we aren't very good at pressing the ball.
 

$hoguN

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2005
26,626
34,700
I disagree but I can't be arsed to argue about the whys and wherefore of Gallas. He's past his best but nowhere near warranting of the criticism he's been given and I'll leave it at that.

But to suggest Walker's problems are somehow because of Gallas is just utter bollocks. Walker's problem's are completely of his own making.
With this I agree
 

YiddoBirdy

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2012
541
897
I think the failure of our pressing game is, not that surprisingly, we aren't very good at pressing the ball.

Only because are players aren't used to pressing. If smaller teams use it effectively I'm sure our players can learn, all it requires is high work rate and organisation, it takes time!
 

thetallaghttiger

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2005
1,540
84
Our so-called pressing game is not working at present as the whole team need to press the opposition. Unlike the original post, I believe the pressing game starts from the front - ie your forward(s). If they press the ball and it results in the opposition maintaining possession in their own half, it allows the defence to push up and then you can look to win the ball back in the compressed midfield, etc.

Unfortunately, everyone needs to do this pressing in unison. For years, Spurs fans know that we haven't had the hardest working team in the league, never mind one that could be near to earning that title. Our players put in more effort to pass the ball than the off the ball work that they are found lacking in.

To be fair to our team in the last few months, we're a horribly balanced side at present due to injuries. Naughton out of position at LB often, Vertonghen filling in there otherwise, Dempsey or Sigurdsson playing at AM (and both in woeful form), while 4-4-2 with Adebayor/Defoe has seen us overrun in midfield a few times.

Fingers crossed we can scrape a few results over the next 2 weeks as from that point on, we should be hopefully looking at Dembélé, Parker and Assou-Ekotto (Adebayor too) back in the picture and available for selection. Those players being back to give us better balance will solve a few problems - I hope...
 

spursandbarca

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2008
3,972
446
we dont have the Xavi to play a 4-3-3. Without that guy who keeps possesion and plays the ball forward not sideways or backwards it doesnt work
 

jamesc0le

SISS:LOKO:plays/thinks/eats chicken like sissoko!
Jun 17, 2008
4,974
944
we dont have the Xavi to play a 4-3-3. Without that guy who keeps possesion and plays the ball forward not sideways or backwards it doesnt work
carroll until someone better comes along?
(better physically, unless tc improves this, would appear a diificult task)
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2010
30,006
29,551
Definitely agree with the overall gist of this, whether AVB will try it in the near future I don't know.

I watched the Villa/Arsenal game tonight, and by the fuck did Villa work hard off the ball and totally had the better of them for the majority of the game - they didn't win, deserved to I might add, but I don't think we've ever had the better of them like that in recent times.

We rarely seem to be able to do the basics well enough, and our recent success has been down to having some outstanding individuals in the side. AC Milan is a stand out performance from that point of view, but we've been struggling with the basics for far too long now and its the single biggest hindrance to our progression IMO.
I have said it for a while and even during our 12 game unbeaten run we have never played to our full potential, the CL league season we saw flashes of brilliance but we havent had a stand out performance in years over 90mins, even when beat Liverpool at home last season we looked better when they had 11 men
 

kcmei

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2008
7,112
1,330
I thought we should have a thread to discuss the problems with our off the ball play. When AVB came to Spurs we were all sold on his defensive tactics being based around a high tempo pressing game with a high back line. It appears that AVB has been trying to get his side to play in this manner but it clearly has not worked as of yet. When we try to press we appear dis-jointed, too open and the opposition not actually that flustered. Personally I think there are two reasons for this. The back line and the midfield formation.

The back line issues have been discussed to death in other threads but I thought its worth bringing up because the whole pressing game has to start form the back. The midfield can not press high without the defence moving up because it creates too much space between the lines. The forwards can not press without the midfield pressing, because they will just be outnumbered and passed around by any mildly competent defence.

Earlier in the season we really allowed ourselves to get deep as the game went on, this meant that the pressing midfield suddenly found they were leaving big gaps between the lines and were getting cut up. Seeing the ensuing chaos they stopped pressing and full on dropped in to the defensive line. The unchallenged opposition then pinned us in our 1/3rd and came at us again and again and again unchallenged. I'm not sure who was in charge of the defence but I have a feeling that it was Gallas who should have been taking responsibility. Perhaps AVB should have been picking up on it? We've lately started pressing higher but have not had the right players to do it. Gallas, whilst putting in some awesome performances, has not had the pace to recover from mistakes. Walker has been off form and as some have controversially mentioned; been playing oppo strikers onside as he tries to protect the space behind the slow Gallas.

Against Lazio we finally had a back four who could really play the high line to the extreme. They struggled with not being used to the system, but that is expected and will improve. You could also clearly see the intended effect of the sweeper keeper with the set-up and it certainly looks like something worth working on. So Verts, Caulker and Lloris improves this part. Despite that improvement however the team as a whole still didn't look right which brings me to the next point; the midfield set up.

Rather than playing the 4-3-3 like AVB had used at Porto we have been forced in to using the 4-2-3-1. It hasn't looked pretty in the attacking sense and it hasn't been effective in a defensive one. I would like to see us move on to a 4-3-3. Leaving out the attacking side of the argument for another thread, this formation affects the pressing side of our game for a number of reasons. In a 4-3-3 there is a genuine midfield 3 where, although there will be a more defensively minded midfielder, an all-rounder and a more attacking player, they are all still midfielders. They all attack, defend and pass, playing in a fluid style. The 4-2-3-1 has the two deep laying midfielders and the man behind the striker. Because a midfield 3 is far less narrow than a midfield 2 it allows the wingers to press the oppo full backs high up the pitch, as a midfielder can always cover behind. A midfield 2 cannot cover across like this as comfortably because it leaves space in the middle of the pitch and although the man behind the striker could drop in to cover, they are often left in no mans land. That's why Dempsey and Siggurdson have looked so lost in those roles this year. They neither hunt down the defending players on the ball nor help dominate the midfield.

So my argument is we should play a midfield 3 of Sandro, Carrol and Dembele. A genuine 3, not Sandro and Carroll sitting and Dembele behind the striker. I'd assume Sandro to be the middle man as he will be naturally inclined to be the more defensively minded. I think set up like this, after some match practice, our team can press high as a unit and dominate the opposition. Bale and Lennon will be given the chance to cause havoc for fullbacks trying to pass the ball out, as Dembele or Carroll can protect the space behind. With the ball we will have far more fluidity and be less predictable. Dembele will probably spearhead attacks but Carroll and Sandro will also have chances to drive with ball as the others take turns to cover.

4-3-3. More effective, more attractive. (Especially when Ade comes back :) )

you're actually better than avb...
 

liam17oi

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2003
2,698
986
we dont have the Xavi to play a 4-3-3. Without that guy who keeps possesion and plays the ball forward not sideways or backwards it doesnt work

Xavi has made his living passing sideways and backwards. Not a criticism, just how Barca play. They keep possession and sideways and backwards passes are integral to their 'tika-taka'. That's why they're so infuriating to watch as well.
 

maldini

Active Member
Jan 4, 2008
227
43
Xavi has made his living passing sideways and backwards. Not a criticism, just how Barca play. They keep possession and sideways and backwards passes are integral to their 'tika-taka'. That's why they're so infuriating to watch as well.

Xavi makes his living passing the ball accurately;long and short; forward, backward and sideways;always keeping possession while looking for the opportunity of that killer pass and making it happen. That's how he got five Ballon d'Or nominations.

Not a criticism but Freund can make those sideways and backward passes too.
 

jamesc0le

SISS:LOKO:plays/thinks/eats chicken like sissoko!
Jun 17, 2008
4,974
944
without hardworking attacking fullbacks* (in particular) all these modern systems (433, 4231 etc) seem to be rendered completely useless. particularly interested in seeing if naughton can rejuvenate the right flank. we won't know if bale and lennon can play the wide forward/attacking mid roles until the system and fullbacks are functioning ok and bale/lennon get a run of games in these positions. hopefully they will work their arses off and fluidly make runs into spaces and swap positions often. i won't hold my breath though.

i don't want to see walker as a fullback anymore. maybe he could be a utility player covering fullback/defensive mid/cb
or if we ever change manager or use the 3cb system i don't think he would have any problems growing into the rcb role.
his pace and power is certainly something that could be harnessed for the good of the team however he is poor on the ball and needs to be well away from our attacking play.



*not just players that want to and like attacking, ones that have the brains and ability to do so
 

stevenqoz

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2006
2,776
553
As ever it is about the personel. Just as you need (in the short term) to fit the formation to to the players, the line up also needs to contain the intelligence to press as a team. With this requirement you also need a clear captain/leader who directs and organises not only how the side presses but also when. Any ideas what we are lacking in all this? Yes a proper captain.....preferably in the central midfield area
 
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