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Finding a system and sticking to it

gavspur

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,255
8,686
Having seen us change formations already a few times this season already, and we are yet (yes, even vs Man Utd) to actually play well. Is there a lot to be said for finding a formation and system that works for us and utilises our best players?

For me, with the who we have, especially as we are leaking goals, we need 3 cb’s.

Alderweireld Sanchez Vertonghen

We also need Kane playing, and now we have options of pace either side of him.

Son Kane Lucas

We need a strong capable holding Cm.

Wanyama

We need a good passer.

Eriksen

And that leaves us with two wing backs who can drop to make a back 5.

Trips Rose

Leaving us with a 3-4-3

It’s a bit light in midfield, but gives us pace, strength and a solid back line. There is also cover and options for each of those. I really like Lamela and his pressing, obv Dele too, Dembele can come in (although I think he doesn’t look great this season)...

If we think back to two seasons ago, we had a pretty stable team.. We need to try and get back to that.
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
3,174
4,992
Having seen us change formations already a few times this season already, and we are yet (yes, even vs Man Utd) to actually play well. Is there a lot to be said for finding a formation and system that works for us and utilises our best players?

For me, with the who we have, especially as we are leaking goals, we need 3 cb’s.

Alderweireld Sanchez Vertonghen

We also need Kane playing, and now we have options of pace either side of him.

Son Kane Lucas

We need a strong capable holding Cm.

Wanyama

We need a good passer.

Eriksen

And that leaves us with two wing backs who can drop to make a back 5.

Trips Rose

Leaving us with a 3-4-3

It’s a bit light in midfield, but gives us pace, strength and a solid back line. There is also cover and options for each of those. I really like Lamela and his pressing, obv Dele too, Dembele can come in (although I think he doesn’t look great this season)...

If we think back to two seasons ago, we had a pretty stable team.. We need to try and get back to that.

Without giving a smart arse answer - Would you not agree that we need to look at benching Kane and give him a rest? Whatever we need right now it is far from what we are getting from him. Of course there are other big issues within the current midfield. I would like to see Poch be "brave" and at least show that he has other ace's up his sleeve regarding tactics and systems. Things seem a little too predictable as far as I can see.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
Our problem, for the second week in a row, is our midfield. We are overrun and easily defeated in the midfield. Liverpool played a great game of not chasing the ball, we had loads possession and made loads of mistakes. Without a world class CM in his prime, who can be an integral part of this possession obsessed style of play, we are not going to take this team further. That's regardless of the number combination to describe the system.
 

dricha1

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2005
1,311
2,579
The title near misses against Leicester and Chelsea were both playing 4,2,3,1

That’s how our squad is set up and how we should play going forward
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
The problem isn't changing formation or doing something different, for me each game is different and you should be trying to exploit opposition weaknesses. So far this season though it's been Poch's insistence in playing two out and out up top. This is the main cause in my opinion. We then get various combinations of narrow midfielders behind it, and it leads to poor pitch coverage - with the ball the pitch looks small, and without it teams are finding it easier to play against us and we have to cover more space closing down out towards the flanks and get dragged out of shape far easier as teams overload us.

Whatever the base selection is, we need to go back to having players between the lines and covering the pitch better - with and without the ball.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,336
329,025
The problem isn't changing formation or doing something different, for me each game is different and you should be trying to exploit opposition weaknesses. So far this season though it's been Poch's insistence in playing two out and out up top. This is the main cause in my opinion. We then get various combinations of narrow midfielders behind it, and it leads to poor pitch coverage - with the ball the pitch looks small, and without it teams are finding it easier to play against us and we have to cover more space closing down out towards the flanks and get dragged out of shape far easier as teams overload us.

Whatever the base selection is, we need to go back to having players between the lines and covering the pitch better - with and without the ball.
How many successful sides change formation week in week out?
 
D

Deleted member 27995

He is tinkering too much. Find the eleven that give you the best chance, stick with what worked (and supposedly the players understood what they were doing) and roll with it (barring injuries)
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
Don’t care what system you play. If you’re picking Eric dier on the right side of a diamond and dembele at the base you deserve to get beat. I think Pochettino is believing his own hype thinking he can just chuck out these weird formations and get a result.
 

Flobadob

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2014
3,617
12,315
I’m a big supporter of Poch but this is starting to annoy me too. He talks about being brave yet he plays sideways cloggers like Dier and Dembele. If it was down to me I would play the diamond we played today but actually have some bollocks and play Winks deep with Alli and Lamela and Eriksen no.10. There’s more than enough work rate and industry in that midfield and we might actually look like we have some ideas when we have the ball! 9/10 you win the ball back it’s not by tackling it’s from work rate and putting the opponent under enough pressure to misplace a pass for you to intercept. That’s what pressing is, it’s not having a 6’3” powerhouse to tackle everyone. If we play a diamond that’s what I want to see. Going back to the 4231 that’s got us so much success in the past would be the best idea though!
 

Danny1

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
5,622
17,169
Unpopular opinion but the last two games fall squarely on Poch and unless he reverts back to what we do best then he will be under pressure come Christmas time. Quite how he has decided for the last two games to play Kane as, essentially, a number 10 is a shockingly bad decision.

Today as soon as Lucas went left and Son right we looked better and all a sudden Kane was getting into the box and almost got on the end of a Trippier cross. We looked more comfortable and had a focal point of our attacks that allowed space for Lamela and Son to exploit!

England did it with Sterling and now Poch is doing it with Lucas. Kane is one of the worlds best strikers and we are playing him out of position which is indefensible, and if Poch continues to play him out of position for the rest of this season then I will be calling for his head at the end of year.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
How many successful sides change formation week in week out?

Depends how the coach sees the game. Coaches that follow the Cruyff/positional play ideas often switch shape and ask their players to fulfil x amount of roles over a season. Guardiola employs about 10 different systems per game sometimes.

Poch often follows the Bielsa/South American mantra of having a spare man at the back. So two central strikers will mean a back three. That's never been an issue previously - end of 16/17 season he switched between both to win, after win, after win.

Changing formation to counter the opposition isn't the problem. In my opinion though Poch isn't doing this, he's scrabbled about trying to a) shoehorn players in and now b) mask the failings of certain players. Moura is playing up top because Kane cant run etc, yet it just takes a player out of the game. Playing so narrowly with a front two and central midfield with little width doesn't help you move the ball about or press well, it's poor pitch coverage for both, and players in the half spaces/between the lines has disappeared thus far. Whilst as a collective a lot of what we do is off right now and needs to better, full stop, his selections of 3-5-2/5-3-2 in particular have backfired on him so far this season, and any games we have won have been in spite of this set up and purely just outgunning the opposition in end to end silly bollocks football that will, eventually, get punished over the course of a season.

3-4-2-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 etc. are viable formations to play, find space, and press, as we have seen previously and can be rotated between.
 

werty

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2005
25,074
26,310
We've done it a fair bit in the first half the last two seasons as well until we get a little more settled after Christmas. I don't mind it per se, but we've picked formations I don't particularly like (especially 352) in games that aren't suited to that system. The three formations mentioned in the post above are so much more better suited to what we try to do.
 

EastLondonYid

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2010
7,837
16,145
Baffling that Poch thought he needed 3 at the back and Sanchez's pace against a rough but slow Watford frontline and omitted Dier who may have been more suited to that type of opponent .... and then went for a flat back 4 without the pace of Sanchez against one of the quickest counter attacking teams on the planet , oh and played an immobile Dier right of a diamond.

We can go on about tiredness, Hugo out etc etc, but tactically Poch got the last 2 defeats massively wrong.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,336
329,025
Baffling that Poch thought he needed 3 at the back and Sanchez's pace against a rough but slow Watford frontline and omitted Dier who may have been more suited to that type of opponent .... and then went for a flat back 4 without the pace of Sanchez against one of the quickest counter attacking teams on the planet , oh and played an immobile Dier right of a diamond.

We can go on about tiredness, Hugo out etc etc, but tactically Poch got the last 2 defeats massively wrong.

I'd add to that we are talking about two of the most predictable teams in the league in Liverpool and Watford. Watford are very physical and look to dominate in midfield by bullying the opposition. Pool against the better sides sit in and counter at pace.. It was no surprise to anyone that we dominated yesterday possession wise, and yet were totally out played. We3 were just not set up right for either game and add to that the first half against Yanited. Poch has seriously got to get back to basics, and let the players to their strengths.
 

EastLondonYid

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2010
7,837
16,145
I'd add to that we are talking about two of the most predictable teams in the league in Liverpool and Watford. Watford are very physical and look to dominate in midfield by bullying the opposition. Pool against the better sides sit in and counter at pace.. It was no surprise to anyone that we dominated yesterday possession wise, and yet were totally out played. We3 were just not set up right for either game and add to that the first half against Yanited. Poch has seriously got to get back to basics, and let the players to their strengths.


Yes....

After we lost to Watford i feared Poch would drop Sanchez against Liverpool, mistake in my opinion for that game for all the reasons we mentioned......but it will be equally wrong imo to bring Sanchez back for the Brighton game, they have a big lump in Murray , Toby and Verts should be able to deal with him and Sanchez seems to struggle against his type.
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,905
78,640
I'd add to that we are talking about two of the most predictable teams in the league in Liverpool and Watford. Watford are very physical and look to dominate in midfield by bullying the opposition. Pool against the better sides sit in and counter at pace.. It was no surprise to anyone that we dominated yesterday possession wise, and yet were totally out played. We3 were just not set up right for either game and add to that the first half against Yanited. Poch has seriously got to get back to basics, and let the players to their strengths.
Especially when you are out of form. You always go back to familiarity for the players and allow them to find themselves again.

I agree with what everyone is saying regarding the formation of old. You can make slight adjustments during the game etc, like he did against Chelsea last season for example. Chopping and changing week by week doesn't help anyone and can confuse players.

No more two up top, instead get Lucas playing a similar role to Sonny. If we find ourselves chasing games then you can push players closer together and move it around but at the moment our poor starts are a direct result of how we are setting up.
 

doctor stefan Freud

the tired tread of sad biology
Sep 2, 2013
15,170
72,169
I'd add to that we are talking about two of the most predictable teams in the league in Liverpool and Watford. Watford are very physical and look to dominate in midfield by bullying the opposition. Pool against the better sides sit in and counter at pace.. It was no surprise to anyone that we dominated yesterday possession wise, and yet were totally out played. We3 were just not set up right for either game and add to that the first half against Yanited. Poch has seriously got to get back to basics, and let the players to their strengths.
Part of that back to basics is rediscovering his meritocracy that served him so well in his first couple of years. I like Lamela, but I’m not blind to his faults either. But his hunger and drive ought to be exactly the qualities Poch promotes, especially given how passive we’ve been lately. Dier has been average at best, and yesterday was appalling in a number of ways. He should be dropped. Eriksen is sailing dangerously close to that territory too, but I’d switch to a 4231 set up and give him another chance, either in the CAM or LAM role where he drifts in and dictates the play. This team needs a shake and wake, it’s talented but it’s slumbering, and often ennui sets in when players feel comfortable
 

Wheeler Dealer

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
6,863
12,282
Our problem, for the second week in a row, is our midfield. We are overrun and easily defeated in the midfield. Liverpool played a great game of not chasing the ball, we had loads possession and made loads of mistakes. Without a world class CM in his prime, who can be an integral part of this possession obsessed style of play, we are not going to take this team further. That's regardless of the number combination to describe the system.
Disagree. Liverpool pressed us all over the pitch and this why we managed on over a 100 times to concede possession. They are a far bettter balance team than we will ever hope to be. They have pace, are direct and show plenty of invention in final third
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
He is tinkering too much. Find the eleven that give you the best chance, stick with what worked (and supposedly the players understood what they were doing) and roll with it (barring injuries)

the thing is with injuries and the possibility that Poch is trying to build up to a regular XI due to the WC, barr Kane, Toby, Jan and Eriksen it's hard to say. we all know that now the CL is getting underway the FB/WB will be rotated, since the start of the season we've now had Lloris injured, Wanyama still injured, Dele now injured. We have seen the 3 at the back struggle at the start of the 2nd half v Fulham, perform badly without protection in front of them v Fulham.

Yesterday was all about poor passing (mental/physical block), we started off 75+% of their attacks by over playing or misplaced passing. another 10% of that was piss poor refereeing for instance the Eriksen appeal for a pen, 5 secs later for the exact same kind of contact he gave Liverpool a free kick, and it followed that pattern most of the game
 
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