General Youth Football

Discussion in 'General Football' started by IGSpur, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. mpickard2087

    mpickard2087 Fantastic Member

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    I know you have to bear in mind that these are young kids still learning the game, but the bits and pieces I saw of the U21's campaign was pretty abysmal. Another age group team that lacks any patience or composure or attempt to tactically control a game. There is no midfield control, no patience to construct an attack and play our way up the pitch - its usually a token effort at playing out from the back and then the ball slammed down the channels. If we have made it to the final third then almost always individuals try to force play with a Hollywood ball or go on their own rather than play what is in front of them. Pass and move just doesn't happen.

    Basically if it cant be done at 100mph, in a few seconds, in no more than a few phases then the players struggle to play.

    In all truth this was much the same as the U20's side, they didn't do anything remarkable or show they were much of a team and cohesive unit, they did a lot of what the U21's exhibited, often going back to front and relying on individuals up top with a bit of pace and trickery to have enough moments to turn a result - but for the U20's enough luck and 'moments' got them all the way to winning the thing.

    I hope though that the FA aren't complacent, but when the U20's have won the World Cup and U21's have narrowly lost in a semi final they almost certainly will be and think their 'masterplan' is working. I look at what they state their aims are for the national teams, things like dominating possession and pressing the opposition, and see very little evidence of this happening in the matches I see. It all too often ends up in an open free-for-all of a game, where any apparent plan that was in place gets abandoned.
     
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  2. Goldman

    Goldman Well-Known Member

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    He was absolutely awful imo. Created little, hold up play was lacklustre and missed a few decent chances. And of course a terrible pen in the shootout, just after the the German's miss, which threw our early advantage straight back.

    To be fair to him, the service into the box for him was dreadful for the majority of the tournament. But he created little for himself, and didn't do well with the chances received.

    I know he had a decent season at Bristol City, but he didn't play well at the Euros.
     
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  3. mpickard2087

    mpickard2087 Fantastic Member

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    He knows where the back of the net is, but at this point he isn't much more than a poacher. Whenever I have seen him, including a match live last season at Bristol City, I always start making the comparison with Darren Bent - Loads of fans/clubs will like that, because of the goals, at the top level though... But obviously he is still young and you hope he could develop/show more of an all-round game. Also think he needs a bit more fire in his belly at times.
     
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  4. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Judging Abraham off this Euros is akin to other fans judging Kane off last years Euros. Abraham is a quality striker and should he get his chance in the PL I think he will score goals. How good he eventually will become is unknown but he is a big talent.
     
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  5. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think the main differences is that the u20s have played together for longer. They all know each others game inside, combined with the fact that they are full of talented players. The u21s however are a combination of players born in 94 or after which in our case crosses 3 year groups. The best players or more the ones who have had PL chances (esp at a top club) instantly move to the first team as the player pool is so shallow (due to lack of chances not talent) e.g. Rashford, Sterling, Alli etc. This leaves the u21s with a mis-match of players.

    Additionally due to a lack of chances our u20s development gets more stunted between u18s-u20s compared to France, Italy, Germany, Spain etc. as those countries start giving their players 1st team minutes.

    At u21 level this difference is magnified even more as it's another year of first team football other nations players are getting in a top 5 european league. While ours are either playing u23s, on loans, playing in the football league or stagnating. The only ones getting PL minutes are playing for mid to lower table clubs. So overall the u21s are a mismatch of players, with no real experience playing together with players at different stages of development with mixed levels of confidence depending on what they're going through.

    And finally like the nature/nurture debate where behaviours is a mixture of both. In football it is both players and managers. A good manager will be able to get something out of good or bad players. Our u21s manager is one of the worst around, and has players who have grown up through the academy battering teams playing long ball. We went ahead against Germany and looked scared to try and win, that doesn't happen in academy football. Even the u20s manager is slightly better and it goes hand in hand. If we're going to struggle to give players chances to develop them, if we want to win or look decent at u21 level we then need to give some progressive managers/coaches the job rather than revert back to the early noughties.

    What you say about motivation may exacerbate that too. if you have players like Redmond earning a pretty penny when not actually being that good, may demotivate him.

    I think there is something in keeping a team together as long as possible. I don't really mind promoting players, but its when they stick players in who won't ever really play for England, when you can put in more of a similar age group who have a lot more potential. Like taking Woodrow when you could have Solanke and Abraham together who know each others game inside out and are both more talented than Woodrow
     
  6. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Thought this was a good article by Martin Samuel. I've mentioned something similar about how we should try and poach Chelsea players either before they sign their first pros, or they should move on at the end of their first pro. A lot of quality PL ready talent could be scooped up.

    And if Chelsea see this happen and players using them rather than being used, then Chelsea may actually feel motivated to give their players a chance

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...lsea-youngsters-reject-club-rejects-them.html
     
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  7. Marty

    Marty Throbbing member

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    I hate to click on Daily Heil links and that spammer but fair do's, that was a good read. We can hope that more of their academy products follow Solanke's example.
     
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  8. Blake Griffin

    Blake Griffin Well-Known Member

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    chris willock has joined benfica after running down his contract at arsenal, that could be edwards this time next year if we don't get his future sorted.
     
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  9. Stopspot

    Stopspot Active Member

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    Will be interesting to see how Toljan and Meyer do tonight.
     
  10. SugarRay

    SugarRay Well-Known Member

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    The u21's are a very average bunch to be honest. Think the side that played the other night had a combined total of 200 prem appearances, compared to the German side who boasted 1100 Bundesliga appearances between them. I suspect very few will make senior appearances for England.

    The u20's are a better side already arguably. I was impressed with them. Same with the u17's who I thought were impressive.

    Hopefully the u19's keep up the recent trend of decent results. I think those that step up to the u21's for the next campaign will move the side on.

    There is talent coming through, no doubt. They just need games and nurturing now...ah well!
     
  11. Stopspot

    Stopspot Active Member

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    Impressed with Meyer. He's got talent and a nice skillset but room for growth.

    Would be happy if we re-engaged our interest in him
     
  12. SlumDilla

    SlumDilla Well-Known Member

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    Game winning assist today. I think we'll try to sign him. His versatility, age and price are hard to pass up. Poch could turn him into one of the best in the world.
     
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  13. Stopspot

    Stopspot Active Member

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    If he was off our radar he is back on most likely after this tournament
     
  14. SlumDilla

    SlumDilla Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. 1 year left on his contract, he can cover RB/RW/LB/LW and is athletically and technically gifted. GET IT DONE!
     
  15. Stopspot

    Stopspot Active Member

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    Swedish top flight player Eric Björkander has a very bright future. He's only 21 but already a very strong center back. He's been very good for his GIF Sundsvall this season
     
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  16. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ood-enough-top-young-spanish-coaches-think-so

    Interesting article. Two spansish coaches within the English game saying what has been said loads of time our setups and the players we're producing are as good and sometimes better than the other top nations. The problem? Opportunities. In Spain if they have talented players in their ranks they will bring them through, here we spunk money on whoever we can as a cheap quick fix rather than taking time to develop players that will be better.

    Looking at Everton its actually a sad situation. 4/5 players in u20 World Cup squad. They played some games and didn't let themselves down last year, in fact some impressed, yet they have spent a load of money to block their paths. Just as you think progress is being made another TV company decides to give us a billion.

    And as we see from the CL and sometimes EL, that despite all these money and us buying all these players in we are performing worse than ever in club international competitions. The league isn't getting any stronger. Before when money was less foreign signings would be shrewd and the really talented now we just throw any money at any tom, dick and harry that has looked good for a season in Belgium. Having more money is counterproductive. The issue is we're so busy competing in an arms race in the PL where we think we need to buy more than the other team to do well, that outside the PL we aren't that impressive.
     
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  17. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Just watched the U19 game against the Netherlands. There's clearly some talented kids there, The two CB's seemed decent, Jay DeSilva is quality as, of course is Sessegnon, who looks absolutely nailed on to make it to me, he has technique, composure and pace and is only what 17? Mount also looks quality. I can see that Buckley-Rickets has ability but to select him ahead of Edwards seems peculiar and then to take Mount off and leave B-R on was very odd. The two CM's were OK.

    Tactically it was a pretty mixed bag. I'd love to see England teams play with more intensity, press the ball higher up, instead of the passive aggressive midfield game that all the age groups seem to play, including the seniors. There's no urgency to win the ball back, it's all very safety first. With the ball they had decent spells, but really created absolutely fuck all, and mostly that's because of when and how they play without the ball. When you are constantly dropping back into a shape, it's very solid, but by the time you have won the ball the opposition are set and you are effectively relying on a moment of individual magic, a mistake or a set piece.

    It was very similar with the U20's. Some talented kids, a very good bunch who you can and have seen played some great football for their clubs (especially Chelsea who impressive me enormously) and thought they played some decent football at times in these tournaments, at England level the coaching is not what you see from the best, the Germans, French, or Spanish say, where they are coached to win, to take initiative, to think and move and play with collective intelligence and an intensity. I don't mean gung ho either, take Germany against Spain in the U21's for example. With England It's still more about playing to not lose first, even when having phases of domination it's very conservative, with very little cohesion, fluency or verve. You have a great attacking full back in DaSilva, but it's like he'd had brakes fitted.

    I also don't really get the 442, 4411 that England played with. We saw this from that fuckwit Boothroyd in the 21's, it just doesn't get the best of the players, and neither DaSilva nor Sterling were able to bomb on in the safety first approach.

    Edwards little cameo was typical really. Picked the ball, jinked round a full back, then gets his head up and lays it to Sessegnon, it was the kind of forward play that England had been crying out for, with Sessegnon providing raw energy on the other side, Mount playmaking in the centre, his ability to take the ball and twist and turn defenders inside out would seem a far better skill set for the mix than B-R's more direct power approach.
     
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  18. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    The game against Germany was OK. This wasn't a very good German team - as evidenced by the fact that Holland thumped them as well.

    I think England deserved to win, but once again, the risk aversion in the team selection and tactics didn't fill me with glee. Buckley-Rickets selection is all about swapping creativity for physicality and effort. When Dozell went off an even more defensive player came on.

    It's this mindset from the coaching set up that transmutes to the players and is the disease that has infested English football for decades. Even now the club academy coaching is improving - vastly in some cases - and the England coaches are being given good young players to work with, all they seem obsessed with is results not performance.
     
  19. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I think it's to easy just to blame money IG, it can definitely exacerbate the situation and a lack of it certainly forcibly induces other nations to integrate youth better, but it's still not the only factor. What's the excuse over the last decade for the clubs from 5th to 17th in the PL and all the clubs below PL level, who aren't uber clubs with unlimited resources ? Many of them have even worse track records for integrating young or home trained (3 years with the club) than some of the richer clubs, and certainly have a worse track record when it comes to their academy producing players that have careers.

    Just because money's there doesn't mean a manager has to choose that option. It seems to me there's plenty of precedent of success for managers and clubs who choose to integrate better. Wenger's golden phase seemed to be when he was integrating young players better, Ferguson's best era corresponded with the integration of young players, around Europe some of the best and most successful clubs have some level of decent integration.

    It's not just affluence, there's an element of cowardice and in some cases, and in others a lack of faith in their own coaching/tactical abilities that they think a purchase off the shelf can compensate for and rarely does.

    In Germany, France, Spain etc there's much more wholistic approach to development and integration, it's just part of the understood system, a logical process that sees club's educate players because they know there is footballing and financial benefits to having a player they have schooled and who will cost them a fraction of the money in fees and wages. It's not just that they don't have money (even teams like Barca, Bayern, Dortmund, Real, Monaco etc all like to develop - even if it's buy to develop and those players end up elsewhere for good fees) it's just logical when you look at the risks and failures of the transfer system, at least a kid you develop is a much more known quantity - you know his abilities and you know his character and personality.
     
  20. mpickard2087

    mpickard2087 Fantastic Member

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    I think it is just the cultural norm in Enlish football and ingrained patterns of behaviour really. You say what's the excuse for clubs below PL level but they often haven't had the money for youth academies and the Football League has been built on clubs doing (often extreme) wheeling and dealing. A lot of managers in the pyramid will have previously come through that system as players and it's just the done thing, it's all they know.

    At PL level now it's just an arms race. It's like in all walks of life, if people have money then the vast majority feel it has to be spent - and the easiest way is signings. Look at our fans for instance, if we're not going out and spending 50 million (at least) a summer then it feels like to a large number that we're being 'left behind' because of what other clubs are doing... And don't tell me those in charge of clubs don't react in the same way!

    I also think that managers come in, often from abroad, and don't have the knowledge and therefore trust of the youth system at the club they take on and so are reluctant to use those players. There is also often a clash of styles and philosophies. I think of Guardiola for instance, people say he had the greatest squad ever at Barca but he still basically made Busquets and Pedro, and was blooding players, and not just the wonderkids like Thiago, but players like Tello and Cuenca. Yes it helps that the spine of the team was bloody amazing and you can introduce players around that, but he knew the system and pathway himself and had the trust in what it was developing. Now look at his work at Man City, who have put a lot in place themselves, and it's totally different approach.
     
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