Good column on spurs in Telegraph by Henry Winter

[sloth]

The premise of this article is not that far off the mark, he's saying our chairman and boards handling of this fiasco is poor, well he's right. As far as the average comments go, yes compared to Preston or Ipswich we are certainly not average, but he is probably comparing us to the Pool, Utd and the scum, where we are most definately average in comparison.

He's not saying we shouldn't aspire to match the big three, but equally, Everton, Villa and Citeh will have similar aspirations to us and give or take have a similar trophy haul to us as well.

Read it again mate...

That's exactly what he's saying. He thinks fifth are the limits of our aspiration. "Jol took Spurs to the boundaries of their legitimate ambition, to fifth place"

"Jol was perfect for the club, being an average coach..."

Is an average coach good enough? Maybe we should only buy average players? In fact let's get shot of Berbatov immediately... how presumptious to think a club graced by players of the calibre of Greaves and Lineker, Ardiles and Ginola, Hoddle and Gascoigne should aspire to have the best!

"The Dutchman was not in the league of Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger or Rafa Benitez but then neither are Tottenham in the same realm as Manchester United, Arsenal or Liverpool."

We failed to qualify for CL by a mere point due to food poisoning, for a calendar year we were the fourth best team in the country, indeed we hovered between third and fourth. Perhaps Sevilla should have accepted their lot too? How dare they try to challenge the Valencia's, Barca's and RMads of this world, didn't they know they were only an average club?? And remind me where Utd were in the 80s? or Chelsea until the 2000s. There's a gap, but not in the same realm?? Come off it!

"[Levy] has delusions of grandeur if he believes Spurs have Champions League potential."

Not even expectations mind you, even potential is absurd to Winter.

 

[DC_Boy]

Howdy DC, I can't read his mind, but at the moment fifth place is our legitimate aspiration, if we can consistently finish close to the big four he and others outside our club might start thinking, hang on Spurs can break the cartel.

Two fifth placed finishes (and I have to include myself in this as I fell for it as well) and we thought we we're gonna crack the nut and have plainly not got the squad to get near the top four at the moment, he's probably alluring to our delusions and again he's right because I had those delusions at the start of the season also.

We got excited by our two best finishes in years, the board then somehow got it into there head that top four was on and so did alot of us, ( I note you didn't DC, well done). We forgot that you have to learn to walk before you can run and to an outside journo like him and supporters of other clubs we look a bit daft.

We've got to be consistently better than the likes of Everton and City and Villa before we take on the big boys, clearly at the moment we've a long way to go.

Fair comment N10

But there's a nice way of putting things - which I think you did there, whether I agree in every detail or not doesn't matter, yours is a reasoned sensible piece.

Then there's a 'not-so-nice' way as exemplified by Winter. Now, of course he presumably couldn't care less about hurting Spurs fans feelings, he's a journo etc. But I do find pieces like his hurtful, so I express my hurt, and also try to bring a bit of balance.

 

[sloth]

Fair comment N10

But there's a nice way of putting things - which I think you did there, whether I agree in every detail or not doesn't matter, yours is a reasoned sensible piece.

Then there's a 'not-so-nice' way as exemplified by Winter. Now, of course he presumably couldn't care less about hurting Spurs fans feelings, he's a journo etc. But I do find pieces like his hurtful, so I express my hurt, and also try to bring a bit of balance.

It's not fair comment at all. It's complete bullshit! Winter said we can't aspire to finish above fifth. That is the limit of our ambition which is why an average coach is good enough. It's like saying we shouldn't try and get the best players because we only deserve avaerage ones. It's a ridiculous argument from a ridiculous man.

If N10 wants to make an entirely different point that's up to him. I certainly didn't expect fourth and thought fifth would be a good result. I wanted to put a bit more pressure on the top four though. If he thought differently that's his look out. I'm glad he's learned a lesson. But that's got nothing to do with this preposterous article by Winter.

 

[DC_Boy]

It's not fair comment at all. It's complete bullshit! Winter said we can't aspire to finish above fifth. That is the limit of our ambition which is why an average coach is good enough. It's like saying we shouldn't try and get the best players because we only deserve avaerage ones. It's a ridiculous argument from a ridiculous man.

If N10 wants to make an entirely different point that's up to him. I certainly didn't expect fourth and thought fifth would be a good result. I wanted to put a bit more pressure on the top four though. If he thought differently that's his look out. I'm glad he's learned a lesson. But that's got nothing to do with this preposterous article by Winter.

Hi Sloth I'll leave you and N10 to debate his views, but just to say as I'm sure you've read in the thread, I'm not happy with Winter's article either.

 

[$hoguN]

terrible article

 

[sloth]

Hi Sloth I'll leave you and N10 to debate his views, but just to say as I'm sure you've read in the thread, I'm not happy with Winter's article either.

Hey Dc, I know and while I'm not so sure about your average point (I think he's talking about average in Premiership terms; which is maybe what we are, but that should not equate with apogee of our potential) i agree with the rest, which is why i thought you were wrong to back-track even a smigeon :wink:

 

[LSUY]

The premise of this article is not that far off the mark, he's saying our chairman and boards handling of this fiasco is poor, well he's right.

That's the part of the article I'm agreeing with. Jol is an average manager compared to some that are about at the moment but given time he will become a top manager.

That article is an insult to Spurs - we are not an average club - we are way above average -we have won 16 trophies - the 5th highest haul in English fotball

How many of those trophies have we won since 1990? Two, three, maybe if you include the joint Charity Shield with Arsenal. A lot of Tottenham fans live in the past. When was the last time we've gone into a season where people thought we could challenge top four and were dead certs to win a cup? Since the Premiership era we have been an average club.

Last season we were the 5th best club in England - that's better than some 95% of the 100 or so professional clubs in England - throw in the hundreds of decent semi-pro clubs etc etc

5th best in England doesn't mean much. The gulf in class between 4th and 5th is huge, so it means we are best of the rest.

"The Dutchman was not in the league of Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger or Rafa Benitez but then neither are Tottenham in the same realm as Manchester United, Arsenal or Liverpool."

As much as I hate to say it but Jol isn't in the same league as Ferguson, Wenger or Benitez yet. We aren't anywhere near United, Arsenal or Liverpool, everyone knows that and if you think we are then you have serious problems. All of them are set to challenge for the title for the next few years whereas we aren't even close to that. Arsenal have Cesc, Liverpool have Gerrard, United have Ronaldo, we have Jenas...that isn't a gap.

We failed to qualify for CL by a mere point due to food poisoning, for a calendar year we were the fourth best team in the country, indeed we hovered between third and fourth.

We overachieved that season, even Jol said so. If Arsenal hadn't played so god awful in the league that year we wouldn't have spent so long in fourth. Our squad isn't good enough and it's starting to look like that the once 5th best squad in the league isn't even that now, especially with Man City playing so well. If Arsenal played their league games like they did their champions league games we would have spent most of the season in 5th. Also we didn't have any cup runs that season so whilst Arsenal were attempting to win the Champions League, FA Cup, etc., we were only thinking about the league.

 

[N10toN17]

The journo is clearly talking currently, currently being the key word and yes 5th is the limits of our ambition or should have been by the board. Our current limits are to stay out of a relegation battle and move up the league. He is not saying we should have limted ambition full stop, that would make him look silly and we all may as well pack up our bags and leave the top four to it. Do journos have to spell out the blatantly obvious in every article they do, to not upset the very sensitive types we have on here.

I'll say again the premise of his article is a dig at our board, for there silly behaviour 2 games into a new season and there over zealous pressure on our coach and team that fourth had to be achieved, it's a stupid way to operate and is poor from a footballing phychological point, you should always underplay publicly your aspirations. I'll leave this particular topic now as its going around in circles just like our chairman.

 

[coldasice199]

Henry Winter is a spurs fan but this isnt one of his better articles. He is truthful sometimes, and it doesnt make for pretty reading. I think he seems more aggreived at the treatment of Jol however than taking other factors into consideration. Dismissing the woeful start to the season, and continued defensive mistakes, how many young players have developed with us past their first seasons. And with our policy for buying young, we need coaches in place that really develop players.

Ramos did it with Navas. Lets hope he can coach Lennon into that wing wizard.

 

[sloth]

The journo is clearly talking currently, currently being the key word and yes 5th is the limits of our ambition or should have been by the board.

Don't be daft, if we get rid of Mido and get in Berbatov instead that's because we think one is good but average and the other is very good and potentially world-class. It's called improving the squad. Winter's clearly said that Jol is average, below the quality of the top four, if you have ambitions to get in the top four, what action should you take? But winter thinks that's ridiculous, not just now, but tomorrow and in the future.

He is not saying we should have limted ambition full stop, that would make him look silly and we all may as well pack up our bags and leave the top four to it.

That's exactly what he's saying. He's saying don't replace an average manager because you're an average side and it's absurd to think you can be as good as the top four. i agree that makes him very silly, but that's because he's not that bright. what he wants to do is have a go at the board. The fact is that if Martin jol was a short skinny pinch-faced man without a sense of humour the journos would be nodding their heads sagely and saying any club would have sacked a manager in Jol's position.

In fact the only reason anyone can agree with the article is because they're guilty of same thing. People are upset the big man is gone but unfortunately they're letting that fact blind them to the reality of our circumstance.

 

[Kendall]

It's not that simple, we shipped goals even when Ledley was fit last season.

The problem with the defence was in te coaching and organisation, not the lack of Ledley fucking King.

I wish people would see past that 'easy' stock excuse.

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi Teemu

How many of those trophies have we won since 1990? Two, three, maybe if you include the joint Charity Shield with Arsenal. A lot of Tottenham fans live in the past. When was the last time we've gone into a season where people thought we could challenge top four and were dead certs to win a cup? Since the Premiership era we have been an average club.

We've won two, the Charity Shield is not a major trophy.

Since the prem era we've been a way above average club.

We may have been an average Prem club, but that's a different point.

there are many clubs outside the Prem, some with greater histories than than some of the current Prem.


5th best in England doesn't mean much. The gulf in class between 4th and 5th is huge, so it means we are best of the rest.

Best of the rest makes us way above average - it puts us better than some 95% of current pro clubs and even higher if you count the hundreds or so decent semi-pro clubs. and please don't tell me (if you or anyone is thinking of doing so ) that only prem clubs count - they don't - ask the proud supporters of Leeds, Forest, Sheff Wed, Crewe Hereford Wolves, whoever

 

[sloth]

It's not that simple, we shipped goals even when Ledley was fit last season.

The problem with the defence was in the coaching and organisation, not the lack of Ledley fucking King.

I wish people would see past that 'easy' stock excuse.

:clap:

But the thing is Martin Jol inspired huge loyalty. Right now a lot of people are hurting. Give them time and sanity will start to reassert itself

 

[Legend10]

Our defending has been a disgrace.

To put it all down to the absence of 1 player is ridiculous.

 

[LSUY]

Hi DC

We may have been an average Prem club, but that's a different point.

How is that a different point? History before the Premier League means very little now unfortunately. You don't see Leeds fans ranting about how they were champions of England back in the '91-92 season. Before Jol our highest finish in the Premiership was 7th, that is average.

History doesn't give you bragging rights. Fans rarely use long distance history in arguments and focus more on the recent past and the present. Tottenham being a club of firsts is nice but it doesn't hold weight against the current achievements of the top four because so few people remember them.

Best of the rest makes us way above average - it puts us better than some 95% of current pro clubs and even higher if you count the hundreds or so decent semi-pro clubs. and please don't tell me (if you or anyone is thinking of doing so :smile that only prem clubs count - they don't - ask the proud supporters of Leeds, Forest, Sheff Wed, Crewe Hereford Wolves, whoever

The writer was talking about average in Premier League terms. The lower leagues don't count because so few people in the media and public care about them. Last season Blackburn, Reading, Bolton, Everton and Portsmouth were closer to us than we were to Arsenal, so our title of best of the rest is underthreat.

As for the proud supporters of Leeds, Forest, Sheff Wed, etc., when was the last time they filled their stadiums? I remember seeing loads of Leeds fans in the early 2000s in and around London but since they've gone down they all seem to have disappeared.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

I think Henry Winters article is pretty spot on. Ok maybe he's a little negative as to where Tottenham COULD end up but at present our club is a million miles away from The Scum, Man U & Liverpool when you look at trophies and league finishes in the last 30 years.
I hope Levy has appointed a gem in Ramos and I hope he and the board and our 'sporting director' or whatever he's called will sliver away quietly and give this manager there full support and let him buy who he wants.
BMJ did a fantastic job for us and deserved better now we must move on and believe Ramos can build on what JOL brought to us.
If not GOD help Levy because i'll be the first in the queue to rip his *uckin head off and shove it up his ass.

 

[PT]

I think that Jol's position, in hinsight, was in the balance well before the fateful trip to Spain to meet with Ramos's agent.

Think back to MJ's comments when asked about challenging for a top four position during close season. His answer that he didn't think we had the squad capable for a top four finish raised alarm bells in the boardroom, but from Jol's position he was being realistic in the capabilities of a young, inexperienced squad.

Following on from the very public disclosure of the Ramosgate, when seeking clarification of his position, Levy spelled it out that we had to aspiring towards a top four position, not actually having to achieve it. But the point was clear and MJ had to concede that his job was on the line if our ambition on the park didn't coincide with that of the boardroom.

Compare Jol's record also, against the top four and in 20 matches Spurs only managed one win - against Chelsea at home in the league. Not a record to promote ambition towards being a top four club and the manner in which we lost some of those games, having in some occasions, conceded handsome leads, raised doubts with Levy and his colleagues.

Whilst Marti Jol has without doubt improved our lot over the last two full seasons and he has left the club with a proud record of win ratios against those of his peers, he has found himself compromised by a squad without leadership and short in certain positions, plus a boardroom that is relentless with it's aspirations that THFC will be a club that competes for the honeypot positions of the top four in the Premiership.

Martin Jol realised that his tenureship was near an end during the close season. Unless he could deliver an opportunity to present Champions League aspirations for next season he was always going to be on limited time. With the start that Spurs have had in the league and lately in the UEFA Cup, Levy could not afford to wait any longer.

The Tottenham manager is dead - lon live the Tottenham manager.

 

[oohaahedgar]

I think Henry Winters article is pretty spot on. Ok maybe he's a little negative as to where Tottenham COULD end up but at present our club is a million miles away from The Scum, Man U & Liverpool when you look at trophies and league finishes in the last 30 years.
I hope Levy has appointed a gem in Ramos and I hope he and the board and our 'sporting director' or whatever he's called will sliver away quietly and give this manager there full support and let him buy who he wants.
BMJ did a fantastic job for us and deserved better now we must move on and believe Ramos can build on what JOL brought to us.
If not GOD help Levy because i'll be the first in the queue to rip his *uckin head off and shove it up his ass.

No, it was a mess how we got rid of him BUT in his 1st season we were about 4th 5th with shit players if you forget the Santini games and we didn't much improve despite massive investment. Now we have no right to demand top four but last season we were nearer 9nth than we 4th and that was despite having bought some top class players. I loved BMJ as a man but thought he messed up to many times and totally understand the boards view of "we got 5th despite the manager
instead of" opinion. Come on Spurs fans lets get behind the new manager he COULD be the best thing to happen to our club.

 

[B0NZ0]

Its folly to say that we will never be a top four team just because last year we wern't, that sort of attitude gets you nowhere. The major benefit of the top four is the ability to attract top players, with, you could say, income as another but we have been fairly competitive there.

No-one can claim to know the thinking behind the decision to sack Jol, but as an ambitious Chairman I'm sure Levy assessed last year. Success in football comes down to 3 elements Finance = revenue (better facilities, players etc), Attractiveness = desirable (fans, sponsorship, players etc.), Effectiveness = getting the most out of resources and at the cheapest price.

Effectiveness is key, the more effective you are the more attractive you become the more finance you can get. Chelsea are not the prettiest but they are effective. However if they never got the finance would they have been as attractive to players and Morhinio? And therefore as effective?

if we assess Tottenhams success in these areas:

Finance -9/10 we have record sponsorship deals, record gate receipts, and spending more on resources then the majority of our competitors - all without Champions league. Can hardly find fault here.

Attractiveness - 8/10 we are seen as a progressive club and shown huge improvement, we have massive support that makes us desirable for sponsors, and we play fast attacking exciting football with a sense of fair play. But we did not win anything, we're not in the Champions league and although we can attract decent players I still think top draw players are likely to choose the top four over us.

Effectiveness - 5/10 You could argue we have, but were we effective as our potential suggests? Did we bottle it towards the end of 2005/06 season? Arsenal got the bit between their teeth, we allowed a few doggy games to get away from us. 2006/07 so close yet so far! Within touching distance of an amazing season only for it all the fall apart at the final hurdle. Why? You couldn't point the finger at our finances or attractiveness.

So why were we lacking effectiveness? Did we lack leadership, tactical ability, a desire to win or a steely confidence? You can say we have young players, but so do Arsenal. Our players weren't good enough? They were winning against Arsenal and Chelsea until...that final hurdle! Did they lack belief? Could be, a manager who tells the world we aren't ready to challenge the best can hardly help. Would Fergi, Wenger or Mourinho making such public admissions of infallibility.

I was and am a Big fan of Jol, I'm also disgusted in the way the board have handled his sacking. But do I think it was the wrong decision? No. I don't see Wenger, Fergi or Mourinho letting leads slip away like us or bottling games when the pressure is on. We have smoe fantastic players, some not so good, but enough to be challenging.

We lacked belief and tactical ability on the pitch, and for all Jol's plus points he had taken us as far as he could, he alluded to as much with his comments. I don't know much about Ramos, but I hope he has belief and tactical knowledge. I don't care much if he is every players best mate, successful managers don't want best mates they want success. Successful managers believe they are the best no matter what and go into every competition expecting to win. Successful managers don't get pushed around and I hope the board's commitment to getting Ramos is a clear statment that he is the MAN and the most important man as far as team selection, coaching and transfers is concerned. Commoli has a job to do and that is support the Manager with scouting, advice and negotiations. If the board are commited to Ramos as much as the money spent suggests, I can see commoli falling off the media radar and al this rubbish about our system disapear into the ether.

So in closing I say lets draw a line under the past, lets hope Ramos is the MAN and that the board are commited to supporting him, even you Mr Commoli. ;o)

 

[GenericID]

Top 4 aspirant or now, the board has to acknowledge that if you want REALISTIC chances of breaking into the CL you have to take on more financial risk. That is, acknowledge that the team sometimes demands players in positions that you won't be able to recoup the outlay back in the transfer market, but will reap benefits down the road. That kind of thinking is anathema to bean counters, who live from one transfer window to the next.

I'm hoping Ramos (if he's a Levy appointment) can persuade him to change the player purchase policy, that's really the only way to success. The other road leads to Jenas and Zokora running our CM.