Good column on spurs in Telegraph by Henry Winter

[bournemouth yid]

Thought provoking and is what many neutrals will think.
I am disappointed at Jol's sacking, and concerned at the loss of face that our board created.
But average - NEVER, not in the same realm as manure and scum-have been, may not be today but WILL be again one day.
Sports writers do not understand the passions of real fans.
As for Spurs going forward getting Ramos is a real scoop, he is def top 10 world manager material, shows our ambition, spend the cash in Jan and the season may well have been a success in hindsight.

 

[TopSpurMan]

Listen you cannot get around the fact that the board did this all very badly and probably cost us points as well.

We are not an average team now though are we, we're much worse than average, last season we aspired to be better than average and we were slightly.

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi Teemu

Hi DC


How is that a different point? History before the Premier League means very little now unfortunately. You don't see Leeds fans ranting about how they were champions of England back in the '91-92 season. Before Jol our highest finish in the Premiership was 7th, that is average.

'It is a different point because average club is not the same as average Prem club.' (DC reply here - it gets a bit confusing this quote thing)'

History doesn't give you bragging rights. Fans rarely use long distance history in arguments and focus more on the recent past and the present. Tottenham being a club of firsts is nice but it doesn't hold weight against the current achievements of the top four because so few people remember them.



The writer was talking about average in Premier League terms. The lower leagues don't count because so few people in the media and public care about them. Last season Blackburn, Reading, Bolton, Everton and Portsmouth were closer to us than we were to Arsenal, so our title of best of the rest is underthreat.

As for the proud supports of Leeds, Forest, Sheff Wed, etc., when was the last time they filled their stadiums? I remember seeing loads of Leeds fans in the early 2000s in and around London but since they've gone down they all seem to have disappeared.

The clubs of other clubs outside the Prem do count - indeed don't be surprised if for example one of the Championship clubs has a higher average gate than one of the Prem clubs - it's certainly happened before

Last time we got relegated, pre prem admittedly our gates were higher than a lot of top flight clubs. Indeed if we did get relegated are you honestly saying we wouldn't count any more just because we're outside the Prem?

as for bragging rights - I care little for these, but the club's history is what makes the club it is - the 60s 70s 80s and 90s were all as real to me as this decade, I care desperately about what what we acheived during these times - they are an integral part of my life.

And even though I was effectively too young for the 50s and completely missed the 40s etc, I still revere all our history, study it at times and always cherish it.

 

[SpursOldBoy]

Top 4 aspirant or now, the board has to acknowledge that if you want REALISTIC chances of breaking into the CL you have to take on more financial risk. That is, acknowledge that the team sometimes demands players in positions that you won't be able to recoup the outlay back in the transfer market, but will reap benefits down the road. That kind of thinking is anathema to bean counters, who live from one transfer window to the next.

I'm hoping Ramos (if he's a Levy appointment) can persuade him to change the player purchase policy, that's really the only way to success. The other road leads to Jenas and Zokora running our CM.

To an extent I agree with what you are saying but I cannot see the board loosening the purse strings on the wage bill stucture just yet, not at least until we get a new stadium.

This is where Ramos's strengths might come in handy. He is a well respected coach who took time out from the game to travel the world and actually study training methods outside of his own country. He constructed a team that broke the stranglehold that the bigger teams in Spain had on the championship.

He did this by not relying on any "billy big boots" egotistical stars, he bought shrewdly and identified players that would suit the pattern of play that he wanted from his team - fast attacking football, physical when needed, high levels of stamina and a "never say die" attitude. Whether the board and Commolli allow him to do that here is the real big question for me.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I already posted on this in the front page, but because I fucking hate henry wanker Winter I will post again here. He is a king size ****. This is the prick that pompously claimed two seasons ago that "football needs Arseanl to pip us to the 4th CL spot" when the last thing football actually needed was the boring fucking tedium of the same 4 clubs dominating english football.

Thank **** we have a chairman who doesn't want to settle for mediocraty. Thank **** we have a a chairman who is ambitious enough to go out and secure us a manager who would be coveted by some of europes best clubs. Thank **** we have a chairman who takes tough decisions and isn't scared of being unpopular in the short term so that the club may possibly reach a little higher long term.

He's a pompous, santimonious nobjockey with dilusions of grandeur and his own self importance.

 

[Legend10]

I think you put that rather well BC.

 

[LSUY]

Indeed if we did get relegated are you honestly saying we wouldn't count any more just because we're outside the Prem?

There is a very big chance that if we were to get relegated we wouldn't count any more because so many players and members of staff would leave, the club would struggle to get promoted straight away. Very few clubs can get relegated from the Premier League and go back up the following season because they lose so much money that they have to sell their best players. Forest, Leeds, Sheff Wed are examples of traditional big clubs that have got relegated, struggled to deal with the vast differences between the Football League & Premier League and have paid for it.

The moment you get relegated from the top flight as far as the general public and media are concerned you aren't of any importance anymore. Just look at the coverage the Championship and League's 1 & 2 get in the papers. As far as most sports writers are concerned those leagues don't exist.

as for bragging rights - I care little for these

So if Spurs were to beat Arsenal 5-0 at the Emirates you wouldn't brag and take the piss out of all your Arsenal supporting friends?

but the club's history is what makes the club it is

There is a difference between what a club was like in the past and how that club is viewed now. Blackpool, Forest, Aston Villa, Notts County and Preston were all massive clubs in the past, even pioneers of the sport but they are alll viewed as average (within their own league) or below average now because the recent history has not been up to the same level.

From the late 80s Spurs have got worse and we are at the point that the likes of Blackburn, Everton and Portsmouth aren't very far behind us. They can beat us at the moment, they look like they will qualify for Europe next season whereas we don't and they (I don't know if Blackburn are) are getting new stadiums. They have the plans settled, land paid for and are ready to build. Our plans aren't getting announced until either December or January. The only thing we've got in our favour is fan base but even that is underthreat. Blackburn and Portsmouth have no rivals that are near them so they can get fans easily. Everton will make sure that the city of Liverpool remains divided. North London has slowly been becoming more Arsenal because we have (since the late 80s) fallen so far behind them. Granted most of them are plastic fans but the money generated from them keeps Arsenal as a top team in the country.

the 60s 70s 80s and 90s were all as real to me as this decade, I care desperately about what what we acheived during these times - they are an integral part of my life.

And even though I was effectively too young for the 50s and completely missed the 40s etc, I still revere all our history, study it at times and always cherish it.

Those decades are important to you because you remember them. If you go up to some teenage Sunderland fan and said we were the first British team to win a European trophy in 1962, most of them wouldn't care.

When people, like yourself are saying we are not an average club you are looking at it in the wrong perspective. You are looking at it from the perspective of a Spurs fan so you include the history of the club from 1882 onwards, I've done it numerous times in arguments with friends. The problem is most people are looking at it from the perspective of the non Spurs fan and are referencing the club's history from as far back as they can remember. That's why most people say Tottenham were a big club but not anymore because they remember the great teams from the early 1980s but also remember the club getting worse throughout the 1990s.

 

[tony0379]

That's the part of the article I'm agreeing with. Jol is an average manager compared to some that are about at the moment but given time he will become a top manager.



How many of those trophies have we won since 1990? Two, three, maybe if you include the joint Charity Shield with Arsenal. A lot of Tottenham fans live in the past. When was the last time we've gone into a season where people thought we could challenge top four and were dead certs to win a cup? Since the Premiership era we have been an average club.



5th best in England doesn't mean much. The gulf in class between 4th and 5th is huge, so it means we are best of the rest.



As much as I hate to say it but Jol isn't in the same league as Ferguson, Wenger or Benitez yet. We aren't anywhere near United, Arsenal or Liverpool, everyone knows that and if you think we are then you have serious problems. All of them are set to challenge for the title for the next few years whereas we aren't even close to that. Arsenal have Cesc, Liverpool have Gerrard, United have Ronaldo, we have Jenas...that isn't a gap.



We overachieved that season, even Jol said so. If Arsenal hadn't played so god awful in the league that year we wouldn't have spent so long in fourth. Our squad isn't good enough and it's starting to look like that the once 5th best squad in the league isn't even that now, especially with Man City playing so well. If Arsenal played their league games like the their champions league games we would have spent most of the season in 5th. Also we didn't have any cup runs that season so whilst Arsenal were attempting to win the Champions League, FA Cup, etc., we were only thinking about the league.

agreed with everything you just saud bravo

 

[nightgoat]

We failed to qualify for CL by a mere point due to food poisoning, for a calendar year we were the fourth best team in the country, indeed we hovered between third and fourth.

Whereabouts is that?... :wink:

Seriously though, if Winter thinks, as he insinuates, the current top four are untouchable (because if the team that finished 5th two seasons in a row, missing out on 4th on the last day, have no chance of making the step up then how can anyone else?) then the rest of us may as well pack up and go home and run a 4 team league for the rest of our days... Which would most likely leave Winter out of a job...

 

[double0]

What a shit aritcle....why cant we be a champion league club? Its not impossible like that silly article implied.

 

[DC_Boy]

There is a very big chance that if we were to get relegated we wouldn't count any more because so many players and members of staff would leave, the club would struggle to get promoted straight away. Very few clubs can get relegated from the Premier League and go back up the following season because they lose so much money that they have to sell their best players. Forest, Leeds, Sheff Wed are examples of traditional big clubs that have got relegated, struggled to deal with the vast differences between the Football League & Premier League and have paid for it.


The moment you get relegated from the top flight as far as the general public and media are concerned you aren't of any importance anymore. Just look at the coverage the Championship and League's 1 & 2 get in the papers. As far as most sports writers are concerned those leagues don't exist.

Well if you believe that we wouldn't count anymore Teemu that's up to you I assure you there are thousands of us loyal fans for whom Spurs will always count. I'm not saying that you are not a loyal spurs fan, but I don't get your perspective. You think that West Ham didn't count to their fans, Sunderland to their fans Man City to their fans etc, when they got relegated. Are you saying there's a black hole that clubs disappear into when they get relegated, and they only reappear on planet football when they when come back into the Prem.

I tell you now if we got relegated we'd get bigger gates than at least 3 prem teams and probably more.




So if Spurs were to beat Arsenal 5-0 at the Emirates you wouldn't brag and take the piss out of all your Arsenal supporting friends?

No I wouldn't, it's not my style. Of course I would enjoy it, and because of my 'long-term' look at life, if in the future I did come across bragging Arsenal fans then I'd remind them of that historical event.

It's the same with say West Ham fans, every so often they'll put one over on us, but if they do want want to come up bragging, taking the piss, I then take great delight in reeling off all the times we or other clubs have put one over on them.

There is a difference between what a club was like in the past and how that club is viewed now. Blackpool, Forest, Aston Villa, Notts County and Preston were all massive clubs in the past, even pioneers of the sport but they are alll viewed as average (within their own league) or below average now because the recent history has not been up to the same level.

From the late 80s Spurs have got worse and we are at the point that the likes of Blackburn, Everton and Portsmouth aren't very far behind us. They can beat us at the moment, they look like they will qualify for Europe next season whereas we don't and they (I don't know if Blackburn are) are getting new stadiums. They have the plans settled, land paid for and are ready to build. Our plans aren't getting announced until either December or January. The only thing we've got in our favour is fan base but even that is underthreat. Blackburn and Portsmouth have no rivals that are near them so they can get fans easily. Everton will make sure that the city of Liverpool remains divided. North London has slowly been becoming more Arsenal because we have (since the late 80s) fallen so far behind them. Granted most of them are plastic fans but the money generated from them keeps Arsenal as a top team in the country.



Those decades are important to you because you remember them. If you go up to some teenage Sunderland fan and said we were the first British team to win a European trophy in 1962, most of them wouldn't care.


Aston Villa (like us) are a way above average club, so you realise that and then put in brackets (in their own league) thereby proving my point there is a difference between 'average club' and 'average Prem club', thank you.

Oh and like I would care what a teenage Sunderland fan would say anyway. (ok that is arrogant, but if any teenage fan of any club has an attitude that the past doesn't matter, then I really won't be too interested in their opinions,, unless they have a devasting critique of why that is so) I , for example, am aware of sunderland once being the Bank of England club, I know they great players like Len shackleton. I know they won the League and FA Cup (indeed have ammassed quite a few trophies). Indeed even last season as a 'non-club' I would have rated them as at least as big as and probably bigger club that an 'all-important Prem' club such as Fulham or Wigan

Incidentally do Sunderland fans now count because they are in the Prem, but last season I could have ignored them as they were non-prem people? That I assure wouldn't go down well with any true Mackem.

When people, like yourself are saying we are not an average club you are looking at it in the wrong perspective. (My (DC's) bold, as I find this astounding ) You are looking at it from the perspective of a Spurs fan so you include the history of the club from 1882 onwards, I've done it numerous times in arguments with friends. The problem is most people are looking at it from the perspective of the non Spurs fan and are referencing the club's history from as far back as they can remember. That's why most people say Tottenham were a big club but not anymore because they remember the great teams from the early 1980s but also remember the club getting worse throughout the 1990s.

Oh no Teemu, it's you who has the perspective wrong. I speak from the perspective of a Spurs fan, as you rightly say. I have entirely the right perspective.

BTW, am enjoying the debate, even though I profoundly disagree with you

 

[LSUY]

Well if you believe that we wouldn't count anymore Teemu that's up to you :smile: I assure you there are thousands of us loyal fans for whom Spurs will always count. I'm not saying that you are not a loyal spurs fan, but I don't get your perspective. You think that West Ham didn't count to their fans, Sunderland to their fans Man City to their fans etc, when they got relegated. Are you saying there's a black hole that clubs disappear into when they get relegated, and they only reappear on planet football when they when come back into the Prem.

I tell you now if we got relegated we'd get bigger gates than at least 3 prem teams and probably more.

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. Everyone in the media and general public aren't Spurs fans so if Tottenham do go down it doesn't matter how many turn up at our games because the vast majority of newspapers and TV viewing figures will be for Premier League games and Premier League highlights. How many people on this site watch the highlights of the Football League?

The general view in this country (especially with national newspapers) is if you're not in the top flight then you aren't worth talking about.

for example, am aware of sunderland once being the Bank of England club, I know they great players like Len shackleton. I know they won the League and FA Cup (indeed have ammassed quite a few trophies). Indeed even last season as a 'non-club' I would have rated them as at least as big as and probably bigger club that an 'all-important Prem' club such as Fulham or Wigan

You are a rare breed. The majority of teenagers and young adults don't really care about other teams history. I know of the odd Arsenal legend but that's it because personally I don't really care about Arsenal's history and I'm sure Arsenal fans are the same.

Aston Villa (like us) are a way above average club, so you realise that and then put in brackets (in their own league) thereby proving my point there is a difference between 'average club' and 'average Prem club', thank you.

Actually I was talking about Preston and Notts County. Villa are average at the moment, most Villa fans will tell you that. They won't qualify for Europe via a league placing or cup win.

Incidentally do Sunderland fans now count because they are in the Prem, but last season I could have ignored them as they were non-prem people? That I assure wouldn't go down well with any true Mackem.

Actually yes. How many Sunderland games were on TV last season? How many times were they on the back page last season? In the modern era it's the media that helps decide whether you are a big club. The Football League is a black hole, the moment you go into it as far as the media is concerned you've disappeared.

Oh no Teemu, it's you who has the perspective wrong. I speak from the perspective of a Spurs fan, as you rightly say. I have entirely the right perspective.

Well no you don't. How many sports writers are Spurs fans? They are looking at the club with the perspective I mentioned in an earlier post as are many of it's readers. Sadly we don't get to decide whether the media and public view us as an average club. If the fans of the other clubs (especially the younger ones) use the perspective I mentioned earlier then they might view Spurs as average, which the media will pick up on so to pretty much everyone except Spurs fans, Tottenham will be viewed as an average club and will be treated as such.

Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd take up more space in newspapers and get more games shown live than we do. Our UEFA Cup games are shown on ITV 4 and Channel 5, it's not until we play a club like Sevilla that we make ITV 1. You may say that's because it's the UEFA Cup but can you put your hand on your heart and say that if Liverpool were playing in the UEFA Cup they wouldn't be on ITV 1 or maybe even ITV 2?

BTW, am enjoying the debate, even though I profoundly disagree with you

Same here, even if you are wrong. :wink:

 

[SpurSince57]

At the start of the season, fifth was the legitimate limit of our ambition.

Jol average? No more so than Benitez.

Good luck to Ramos. He'll need it.

 

[IamCelestial]

being an average coach with a soul and a commitment to attacking football

is this guy mad or blind?

 

[SpurSince57]

What a shit aritcle....why cant we be a champion league club? Its not impossible like that silly article implied.

It's not impossible, but improbable. Before the season began, rather a lot of people on SC were gleefully predicting that this would be our year, but predicating this on the very silly assumption that Arsenal would fall apart. Unfortunately for such vain hopes, Wenger's two seasons of rebuilding and relative under-achievement have paid off.

At the moment, we simply aren't good enough.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

It's not impossible, but improbable. Before the season began, rather a lot of people on SC were gleefully predicting that this would be our year, but predicating this on the very silly assumption that Arsenal would fall apart. Unfortunately for such vain hopes, Wenger's two seasons of rebuilding and relative under-achievement have paid off.

At the moment, we simply aren't good enough.

Wash your mouth out immediately and dont let Mr Levy hear you spouting out such defeatist drivel. BMJ got us back to back fifth places and we MUST keep moving forward which obviously means at least 4th place and a cup.
Dont you know we are a massive club so should be in the top 4. Just because we normally finish 9th-14th every year doesn't mean we shouldn't expect at least 4th now!!!!!

Levy, you have been a greedy ***** too soon mate. I just hope Ramos saves your bacon (oops, chicken soup)

 

[austintexasspur]

Winter's embarrassed himself with this one. He's is wrong on so many counts it is almost funny. Tottenham is a club, that is so dripping with potential to break into the "big four" (I loathe that phrase, I really do) both financially and, albeit not right now, on the pitch I can almost taste it.

The opening to this season has been almost impossible to swallow, but we're only 11 games in, we have a new manager who will have a very definite idea of what he wants, and I think a trophy and a return to Europe next season is a real possibility.

We've never been an "average club." The reason the media love to take pot-shots at us is because they've always disliked the fact we have a huge and genuine history. The media hate that and, time after time, they dig at old scars (Scholar, Venables & Sugar, Christian Gross etc etc) and laugh us off. This board has helped people like Winter call us "average."

But I tell you this: When Ledley is holding the Champions League trophy in the air in five years time, they'll shut the fuck up forever...

Mark my words. Five years and everyone can fuck off.

COME ON YOU FUCKING SPURS!!

 

[JJetset]

Winter's embarrassed himself with this one. He's is wrong on so many counts it is almost funny. Tottenham is a club, that is so dripping with potential to break into the "big four" (I loathe that phrase, I really do) both financially and, albeit not right now, on the pitch I can almost taste it.

The opening to this season has been almost impossible to swallow, but we're only 11 games in, we have a new manager who will have a very definite idea of what he wants, and I think a trophy and a return to Europe next season is a real possibility.

We've never been an "average club." The reason the media love to take pot-shots at us is because they've always disliked the fact we have a huge and genuine history. The media hate that and, time after time, they dig at old scars (Scholar, Venables & Sugar, Christian Gross etc etc) and laugh us off. This board has helped people like Winter call us "average."

But I tell you this: When Ledley is holding the Champions League trophy in the air in five years time, they'll shut the fuck up forever...

Mark my words. Five years and everyone can fuck off.

COME ON YOU FUCKING SPURS!!

Winter is only commenting on now not five years though. If he was doing a piece on hypothetical champions in 5 years if the board support the manager and teams that have potential i'm sure we might figure somewhere, but as it stands he is only commenting from an overview perspective of how our great club has imploded here and are made to look mugs by everyone external of our club.
Of course the board will have aspirations to break into the top 4 as if you didn't have that you may as well pack up, go home and not bother sitting on the board but there needs to be some reality here and some perspective from the fans, something i believe, and even more so after reading some of the comments in the thread, which is sadly lacking from our fans.

 

[austintexasspur]

If Winter had written "underachieving club" he might have had a point.

 

[Ironskull]

JJetset if you think Winter is the best hack oput there then you need to go back to school. Brian Glanville and Hunter Davies put him to shame.