Hillsborough e-petition

[t7ny]

T7ny by name
T7ny by bra7n


75,251 signatures
& over three-quarters of the way there

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2199

sign up, stick this up on Facebook, Tweet it...

What I am saying is what is the point? So we can apportion blame to someone or some government body in hindsight.
It's unproductive and unnecessary as it serves no purpose. Any lessons to be learned have obviously been actioned and implemented already, I think it's a futile waste of effort. I sypathise with the families of the victims but dredging all this up for no good reason will probably only cause them more distress than resolve any outstanding issues they have anyway.

 

[rich75]

Agree with t7ny I'm afraid . There's no real point to this . We all know that the police, football authorities , government , press etc etc fucked up massively on the day and afterwards. I don't see what purpose this serves at all.

 

[t7ny]

Yeah, I didn't want to come across as piss-taking in my first post, I just couldn't see what good could come of it.

 

[rich75]

This is a matter for all football fans but Spurs fans should have a special interest.

It's a petition

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2199

So far there are 73,950 signatures.

100,000 are required for the petition to be discussed in the House of Commons.

So sign up now!

This isn't quite accurate either, 100k signatures mean that it will be considered for debate in the commons , not that it will be debated .

 

[riversmonkey]

Signed. Realistically this will only get discussed around the time of the next Anniversary, but if people stay quiet then nothing would ever get done.

 

[sherbornespurs]

Agree with t7ny I'm afraid . There's no real point to this . We all know that the police, football authorities , government , press etc etc fucked up massively on the day and afterwards. I don't see what purpose this serves at all.

Having been born in Toxteth, and coming from a whole family of Liverpool fans, many of whom were in attendance on that fateful day in 1989, I declare an interest.

Quite simply the families of the 96 who died on that tragic day need closure, and for that to happen there are still too many unanswered questions.
As an example, many want the files of the West Midlands Police investigation to be made public as they believe it was not a probe into the cause of the disaster but an attempt to frame Liverpool fans themselves.

They also want to know how and why 183 police statements were altered.

The families of the 96 ALL want the 30-year secrecy rule covering police logs and Home Office dossiers to be made public, therefore enabling every shred of evidence to be placed in the public domain for further scrutiny.
They want new eyes to study what happened in the first disaster, the crush, and the second disaster, the cover-up. The only way to achieve this is for full disclosure of all documents.

The legal and political establishment would love the Hillsborough families to go away. But they won't, not until the lies and half-truths remain brushed under the carpet.

 

[rich75]

Having been born in Toxteth, and coming from a whole family of Liverpool fans, many of whom were in attendance on that fateful day in 1989, I declare an interest.

Quite simply the families of the 96 who died on that tragic day need closure, and for that to happen there are still too many unanswered questions.
As an example, many want the files of the West Midlands Police investigation to be made public as they believe it was not a probe into the cause of the disaster but an attempt to frame Liverpool fans themselves.

They also want to know how and why 183 police statements were altered.

The families of the 96 ALL want the 30-year secrecy rule covering police logs and Home Office dossiers to be made public, therefore enabling every shred of evidence to be placed in the public domain for further scrutiny.
They want new eyes to study what happened in the first disaster, the crush, and the second disaster, the cover-up. The only way to achieve this is for full disclosure of all documents.

The legal and political establishment would love the Hillsborough families to go away. But they won't, not until the lies and half-truths remain brushed under the carpet.

I'm not going to get into a argument about this,it's obviously a very sensitive issue. I've got no problem with others signing this, good luck to them. From a personal point of view I just don't see it as worthwhile .

 

[Spur-of-the-moment]

I'm not going to get into a argument about this,it's obviously a very sensitive issue. I've got no problem with others signing this, good luck to them. From a personal point of view I just don't see it as worthwhile .

You're provoking the argument... :wink:

It may be 'sensitive' but it's also a matter of principle: the principle of justice.

The Hillsborough scandal amounts to a miscarriage of justice.

It is always 'worthwhile' to correct miscarriages of justice.

No one from the police has ever said sorry to the bereaved families, either for the negligence on the day of their loved-one's deaths or for the way in which they embarked on a campaign of slander to blame the victims.

While 14 members of the police received £1.2million in compensation for the psychological trauma they suffered on the day, some of the families had their funeral expenses paid for and nothing more. In fact, they don't want money. They just want someone to take responsibility for the wrongs done to them by senior police and others.

It is always 'worthwhile' to ensure that senior police (and anyone else in power who was involved) take responsibility for such terrible wrongdoing.

What's the point of living in a democracy and subscribing to justice if you don't believe this?


https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2199

79,428 signatures

 

[rich75]

You're provoking the argument... :wink:

Not at all, I'm giving an opinion and making it clear that if others think differently then that's fine. I'm not going to argue with them.

 

[Black]

i always assumed hills borough was just stupid fans trying to get into a game they had no ticket for ?

 

[Spur-of-the-moment]

i always assumed hills borough was just stupid fans trying to get into a game they had no ticket for ?

No evidence for that. All lies told by the police and the media. Even the Sun issued an apology (many years later). The police have never apologised.

 

[sherbornespurs]

i always assumed hills borough was just stupid fans trying to get into a game they had no ticket for ?

See attached link, then review your assumptions.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opi...at-changed-football-forever-article40926.html

 

[zx81]

Signed.
I know someone who was in the stadium and how seriously he was effected . It took him over. 10 years to be able to go inside another stadium.

 

[arthurgrimsdell]

Spurs fans at the 1981 FA Cup Semi-Final against Wolves were allocated the smaller Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough despite having a far larger support. quote]
This is not the whole story at all. In 1981, Spurs were allocated the Leppings Lane, half of one side and the upper tier at the opposite end. I know this because I was in the front row of the upper tier at the opposite end in an allocated seat and was able to see around the ground. My initial thought when I saw what was going on at the other end was that it was yet another example of a certain section of the Spurs' support letting the Club down, which was prevalent at the time. Don't forget this is in the same era as the 1974 UEFA Cup final 2nd Leg in Rotterdam, when Tottenham fans rioted at around half time, and Bill Nicholson was forced to address the culprits by the side of the pitch and tell them in no uncertain terms that they were bringing the club into disrepute. Indeed it is known that this was one of the factors which led Billy Nick to decide that it wasn't worth a candle any more, along with players wanting under the counter payments to sign for the Club, and it led to his resignation and the subsequent disaster of Terry Neill.
It soon became apparent that the cause of the problem in 1981 was too many people wanting to stand directly behind the goal, when there was space to the side. Luckily this was before fans were caged in because of persistent misbehaviour, so it was relatively easy for fans to be moved.

I have always had very mixed feelings about the Hillsborough disaster, feeling both pity and grief on behalf of those who died, and a lack of understanding as to why everyone but the perpetrators of the tragedy has ever been blamed.
Remember there are similarities to the Heysel tragedy in 1985 when Juventus fans were crushed against a wall, which collapsed, by Liverpool supporters, and this was a major factor in fans having to be caged in, and English clubs being banned from European football.
It is an inescapable fact that the crush involved in the Hillsborough disaster was caused by Liverpool fans trying to get the best view directly behind the goal, arriving late and pushing down on already packed in Liverpool supporters in front of and below them. There was space to both sides but the fans concerned were only interested in going directly behind the goal.
The situation was undoubtedly exacerbated by the police opening one gate around kick off time, which led to fans rushing headlong to get in, but not going where there was space, and only being interested in getting directly behind the goal. However the reason the police did this was because a crush was developing outside the ground and they wrongly thought this was the best way to alleviate it.
It should also be borne in mind that this was the second year in succession that Liverpool had reached the semi-final of the FA Cup, played the tie at Hillsborough and been allocated the Leppings Lane end, so any excuse that the fans concerned didn't know where they were going doesn't hold water, unless of course there was a completely different set of Liverpool fans allocated tickets in 1988 and 1989, which isn't very likely to say the least..
Again, the police didn't help matters by not opening the gates to the caged in fans early enough, but it needs to be borne in mind that this all occurred at a time when football hooliganism was a national curse, and the police could be forgiven for initially misreading the situation as a fight.
To add to this we have the police's natural predilection for initially stating that they did everything right and couldn't be faulted, whenever they are involved in any controversy. Time and again they have to back off later and admit they got various things wrong (Charles Menendez immediately comes to mind but there is example after example). But this dishonesty does not mean they were to blame for this disaster, any more than the Sun's scurrilous reporting of apparently mythical events as a sideshow to the disaster means that they were to blame.

Crushes are caused by people deliberately or recklessly pushing people in front of them against an immovable object. When this occurs in a football stadium the crush is worsened because the people in front are also below the people behind. Thus the force is greater.

As far as I know there has been no suggestion that the police pushed anyone. They allowed people to recklessly rush headlong into the ground, and are guilty of misjudgement both in this instance and in not opening the gates of the cages quickly enough. But the crush was caused by reckless, selfish Liverpool supporters pushing down against sensible and unselfish Liverpool supporters who had made sure they had arrived in time to get a good view. The latter were the poor souls who were injured, and in far, far too many cases died.

A major problem here is that a certain type of vocal "professional Liverpudlians" are never able to accept responsibility for anything they or any other Liverpudlian might have done wrong and are always volubly looking for someone else to blame. This is in my view why even 30 years after the event, some still want to point the finger of blame anywhere but in their own direction. And of course there are a great number of gullible people who are willing to unquestioningly support a cause celebre like this without thinking or analysing what went wrong, which was basically very simple. Being able to read all the correspondence that went on at the time will not add a jot to what we already know and need to know: People pushed other people against a wall so they could get a better view themselves.

I won't be signing the petition.

 

[sherbornespurs]

Well, I'm afraid that's at complete variants with the findings of the Hillsborough report. To quote from Lord Justice Tayler "The main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control"

Where in the Tayler report did you come across the conclusion highlighted in your post?

 

[Spur-of-the-moment]

Arthur, Several inaccuracies, misapprehensions and regrettable prejudices in your post. I'll just point out the main ones.

It soon became apparent that the cause of the problem in 1981 was too many people wanting to stand directly behind the goal, when there was space to the side. Luckily this was before fans were caged in because of persistent misbehaviour, so it was relatively easy for fans to be moved.

The main problem was the design of the Leppings Lane end which caused serious safety concerns. For this reason the FA (no friend of the fans, so no axe to grind) took the FA Cup semi-final away from Hillsborough for the next six years. Sheffield Wednesday FC did make some changes but failed to observe basic safety rules and many of the original faults remained. There were problems in the 1987 and 1988 semi-finals in the very areas that would result in the 1989 disaster.

Taylor found fault with safety standards, with SWFC, their engineers and safety officers, as well as Sheffield City Council who neglected their safety oversight duty and had not awarded a certificate for a decade.

Blaming the fans just won't do, Arthur.

It is an inescapable fact that the crush involved in the Hillsborough disaster was caused by Liverpool fans trying to get the best view directly behind the goal, arriving late and pushing down on already packed in Liverpool supporters in front of and below them. There was space to both sides but the fans concerned were only interested in going directly behind the goal.

No. If a crowd follows the line of least resistance and leads to a crush, then it is a fault in policing, stewarding and architectural design. It is the responsibility of the authorities in charge to count the crowd in -- a basic safety requirement -- and to stop the crowd from entering the space when it's full. They did neither of these things. Taylor criticised them not the crowd.

You don't 'blame' a crowd of excited football fans trying to get the best view. The crowd will not know when the pen is full unless they are told by people in charge of safety. There was no one in charge of their safety that day.

To blame the crowd is ridiculous.

It should also be borne in mind that this was the second year in succession that Liverpool had reached the semi-final of the FA Cup, played the tie at Hillsborough and been allocated the Leppings Lane end, so any excuse that the fans concerned didn't know where they were going doesn't hold water, unless of course there was a completely different set of Liverpool fans allocated tickets in 1988 and 1989, which isn't very likely to say the least.

There was a crush in both 1987 and 1988. On those occasions it was relieved by kicking off late (thus avoiding the problems outside the turnstiles) and/or opening the perimeter gates. Of course, the authorities in charge did not attempt to solve the causes of the crush, which was poor design and stewarding.

In 1989 an inexperienced command officer gave the order not to open the perimeter gates. Furthermore the decision was made not to delay the kick-off.

It's absurd to somehow give to Liverpool fans the 'responsibility' for these decisions or to know (by what kind of perception for goodness' sake?) when the pens were full, no matter how many times they'd been to the ground before.

This is a responsibility of stewarding and police. Arthur, why on earth do you think we have them in crowd control? For decoration?

Again, the police didn't help matters by not opening the gates to the caged in fans early enough, but it needs to be borne in mind that this all occurred at a time when football hooliganism was a national curse, and the police could be forgiven for initially misreading the situation as a fight.

There was no violence at all. The police made a big mistake. They 'misread' the situation and it cost 96 lives.

Does no one take responsibility for that?

To add to this we have the police's natural predilection for initially stating that they did everything right and couldn't be faulted, whenever they are involved in any controversy. Time and again they have to back off later and admit they got various things wrong (Charles Menendez immediately comes to mind but there is example after example). But this dishonesty does not mean they were to blame for this disaster, any more than the Sun's scurrilous reporting of apparently mythical events as a sideshow to the disaster means that they were to blame.

The police BOTH made catastrophic errors on the day of the disaster AND then tried to blame the fans, including the victims. The command officer told a lie to Kelly - he said that the fans broke down the exit gate. The South Yorkshire Police briefed Ingham that the fans were drunk and responsible for the disaster.

It wasn't just that they tried to deny responsibility - they blamed the dead.

The police have to take their share of responsibility BOTH for the errors that lead to the disaster AND for the lies which hurt the families of the bereaved so much.

Crushes are caused by people deliberately or recklessly pushing people in front of them against an immovable object.

No. See above and see the Taylor Report.

But the crush was caused by reckless, selfish Liverpool supporters pushing down against sensible and unselfish Liverpool supporters who had made sure they had arrived in time to get a good view. The latter were the poor souls who were injured, and in far, far too many cases died.

No. See above and the Taylor Report.

A major problem here is that a certain type of vocal "professional Liverpudlians" are never able to accept responsibility for anything they or any other Liverpudlian might have done wrong and are always volubly looking for someone else to blame.

Oh dear.

This is in my view why even 30 years after the event, some still want to point the finger of blame anywhere but in their own direction. And of course there are a great number of gullible people who are willing to unquestioningly support a cause celebre like this without thinking or analysing what went wrong, which was basically very simple. Being able to read all the correspondence that went on at the time will not add a jot to what we already know and need to know: People pushed other people against a wall so they could get a better view themselves.

Sadly. Arthur, you've demonstrated your own prejudiced ignorance. You know nothing of what you speak. Gullible? Unquestioning? Best point the finger at yourself.

Remember you are dealing with the memory of 96 dead football supporters and the grief of their bereaved families.

 

[Spur-of-the-moment]

84,594 signatures.

Only 15,406 to go.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/2199

Click and sign.

 

[Houdini]

85,660.

 

[Houdini]

85,684.

It's moving....

 

[JerryGarcia]

A major problem here is that a certain type of vocal "professional Liverpudlians" are never able to accept responsibility for anything they or any other Liverpudlian might have done wrong

Were you a copper on duty that day by any chance? Eek