Hillsborough inquests

[WalkerboyUK]

No, no they weren't. They were climbing over walls to get out of the crush already developing in Leppings Lane and those the did climb over were challenged by police inside the ground and one (only one) supporter was removed for not having a ticket.

Okay, got it.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

the FA get off scot free, even though they selected Hillsborough for the semi-final venue.

Not yet they haven't.

 

[mightyspur]

Anyone who thinks the fans are still to blame should read the inquest jury statements https://hillsboroughinquests.indepe...neral-jury-questionnaire-FINAL-54004274_1.pdf in particular question 7

Question 7: Behaviour of the Supporters Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Answer “yes” or “no”. NO

If your answer to the question above is “no”, please answer the following question. Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Answer “yes” or “no”. NO

 

[tototoner]

I see The Sun gave the inquest verdict as much coverage as was expected

 

[Dougal]

To be fair, Rita Ora might have slept with Jay Z.

 

[worcestersauce]

Looking back now people will see the Liverpool fans as we see fans now but at that time the reputation Liverpool fans wasn't high, they were, after all, responsible for the slaughter of 39 Juventus fans four years earlier after which only 14 of their fans were successfully prosecuted and all of whom were walking the streets free as a bird by the time Hillsborough happened and none of whom, as I recall, were condemned by the city of Liverpool.
One reason Liverpool reached the semi-finals was very likely because there was no European football to disturb them, English teams were banned because of them.
I'm not arguing about this latest inquiry result, it's about time it came but it is easy to forget why those who are guilty were able to cast aspersions on decent Liverpool fans and not be questioned.
The government at the time didn't have utter contempt for Liverpool fans they had utter contempt for all football fans who the sports minister called the "effluence" which isn't pleasant but worse, when those of us argued that caging us in like animals was an insult let alone dangerous they were not interested in acting to have them removed, cages kill people but until Hillsborough authority didn't consider us football fans people and that's how they got away with it.
Thankfully it's coming to a proper end.

 

[UpTownSpur]

Looking back now people will see the Liverpool fans as we see fans now but at that time the reputation Liverpool fans wasn't high, they were, after all, responsible for the slaughter of 39 Juventus fans four years earlier after which only 14 of their fans were successfully prosecuted and all of whom were walking the streets free as a bird by the time Hillsborough happened and none of whom, as I recall, were condemned by the city of Liverpool.
One reason Liverpool reached the semi-finals was very likely because there was no European football to disturb them, English teams were banned because of them.
I'm not arguing about this latest inquiry result, it's about time it came but it is easy to forget why those who are guilty were able to cast aspersions on decent Liverpool fans and not be questioned.
The government at the time didn't have utter contempt for Liverpool fans they had utter contempt for all football fans who the sports minister called the "effluence" which isn't pleasant but worse, when those of us argued that caging us in like animals was an insult let alone dangerous they were not interested in acting to have them removed, cages kill people but until Hillsborough authority didn't consider us football fans people and that's how they got away with it.
Thankfully it's coming to a proper end.

I don't think that's a fair statement at all. A decrepit stadium, poor segregation and policing were the causes of Heysel. Do you think Tottenham fans would have done nothing is Juventus fans were throwing lumps of concrete at them?

 

[Wellspurs]

It could have been any of us and indeed a Spurs fan was killed there. If you go to any event the least you expect is to not be guided to your death. Fans turn up at kick off time and they have had a few beers... no one expected that???

 

[DiscoD1882]

I don't think that's a fair statement at all. A decrepit stadium, poor segregation and policing were the causes of Heysel. Do you think Tottenham fans would have done nothing is Juventus fans were throwing lumps of concrete at them?

You are in one sentence, advocating football violence. rugby fans and many other sporting fans can sit together without kicking the shit out of each other. And killing each other. I go to watch football. I have never punched anyone at a football match because they support another team. I would sit next to them if it was allowed. this tribal bullshit was the reason for caging in fans and for that all football hooligans are responsible.

 

[UpTownSpur]

You are in one sentence, advocating football violence. rugby fans and many other sporting fans can sit together without kicking the shit out of each other. And killing each other. I go to watch football. I have never punched anyone at a football match because they support another team. I would sit next to them if it was allowed. this tribal bullshit was the reason for caging in fans and for that all football hooligans are responsible.

Did you go to a football match in the 1980's? It was the way it was. Why it was that way is another argument. But given these problems were known about, playing in such a decrepit stadium with such poor segregation between fans was always likely to result in problems.

 

[worcestersauce]

I don't think that's a fair statement at all. A decrepit stadium, poor segregation and policing were the causes of Heysel. Do you think Tottenham fans would have done nothing is Juventus fans were throwing lumps of concrete at them?

Are you honestly saying what I think you are saying? That's the attitude the city of Liverpool showed at the time, it's never theirfault, they are never to blame and it's disgusting.
Liverpool fans attacked Juventus fans and killed them, everything else is incidental and nobody would have died if they hadn't attacked them end of discussion.
That "it wasn't me guv" attitude was why people found it easy to believe the cover up, because people expected Liverpool fans to lie and not accept responsibility.

 

[UpTownSpur]

Are you honestly saying what I think you are saying? That's the attitude the city of Liverpool showed at the time, it's never theirfault, they are never to blame and it's disgusting.
Liverpool fans attacked Juventus fans and killed them, everything else is incidental and nobody would have died if they hadn't attacked them end of discussion.
That "it wasn't me guv" attitude was why people found it easy to believe the cover up, because people expected Liverpool fans to lie and not accept responsibility.

They did not "kill" them, a collapsing wall killed them.

 

[talkshowhost86]

You are in one sentence, advocating football violence. rugby fans and many other sporting fans can sit together without kicking the shit out of each other. And killing each other. I go to watch football. I have never punched anyone at a football match because they support another team. I would sit next to them if it was allowed. this tribal bullshit was the reason for caging in fans and for that all football hooligans are responsible.

The tribalism of football fans could be a subject all in itself.

I was amazed on Monday night how so many fans around me seemed to have so much animosity for the West Brom fans. There seemed to be pure hatred in their eyes and they spent 90% of the game swearing and making gestures to their fans rather than actually watching the game, and when we scored all celebrations were more mockery of their fans rather than celebration of our goal. And that's not even talking about the pathetic songs about Arsenal and Wenger which I don't understand why our fans sing.

It all made me fairly glad that I don't have a season ticket any longer to be honest. I just don't understand how people can be like that.

Anyway...that's all a bit off topic. I can see what @worcestersauce is saying, but it's perhaps the wrong time to say it. The focus right now should be on the cover up and the cover up alone.

 

[WalkerboyUK]

The tribalism of football fans could be a subject all in itself.

I was amazed on Monday night how so many fans around me seemed to have so much animosity for the West Brom fans. There seemed to be pure hatred in their eyes and they spent 90% of the game swearing and making gestures to their fans rather than actually watching the game, and when we scored all celebrations were more mockery of their fans rather than celebration of our goal. And that's not even talking about the pathetic songs about Arsenal and Wenger which I don't understand why our fans sing.

It all made me fairly glad that I don't have a season ticket any longer to be honest. I just don't understand how people can be like that.

Anyway...that's all a bit off topic. I can see what @worcestersauce is saying, but it's perhaps the wrong time to say it. The focus right now should be on the cover up and the cover up alone.

Where I was it was a completely opposite atmosphere. We applauded and laughed at some of their more amusing songs.
Even when we scored there was very little aimed at the away fans. When they scored, their fans were certainly a little bit more aggressive, but not in a worrying/dangerous manner. I certainly didn't fear having a seat or cup of piss thrown at me from above.
I came home from the game thinking that it was the sort of atmosphere where I'd have been happy to take my son to the game.
Either I was so wrapped up in the game that I didn't notice, or the bad language was nowhere near as bad as I've previously experienced.

 

[sherbornespurs]

The more things change, the more things stay the same. OK, football stadia are much safer than back in the day and the risk of death inside our stadiums is lower than at any time in the history of football - but us football fans are still treated with contempt, particularly if you compare us with supporters of other sports.

Follow your team half-way up the country and you're likely to be stuffed away in some remote corner of the ground and charged the privilege of around £50 when home fans can pay as little as £20 for a similar view.

Check the fixtures, book your train ticket early to take advantage of cheaper tickets - only to find 10 days later the fixture gets shifted at the behest of Sky Sports, as happened to me recently for the upcoming Southampton game. "You should have known a game may be switched 3 weeks before the fixture" is what I got back - totally unacceptable when the original date and time was clearly shown on the club's ticket page.

Three games on the trot switched to a Monday night. How does that work when you live over 100mls away and your last train home is 22:00hrs? One game change is perfectly reasonable, but 3 consecutive - outrageous.

And how many other sports are there where you can't even enjoy a drink watching the game?

Make no mistake football fans are still treated like scum in this country: excessive prices, poor facilities, lack of respect from clubs, lack of communication from clubs, travelling fans over-charged, herded and treated like criminals even though they are actually pumping cash into the host club. You really couldn't make this stuff up.

I like the fact that my life expectancy when visiting a football ground is higher now than it was in 1989, but that doesn't excuse the fact that our reward for pouring huge amounts of time, money and emotion into the game is exploitation. The clubs know they have us by the balls, they know we are umbilically linked to our club, but I do think it's about time that supporters of all clubs came together to stop clubs from treating us fans like dirt.

 

[worcestersauce]

They did not "kill" them, a collapsing wall killed them.

The wall that wouldn't have collapsed if terrified people weren't squashed against it and trying to climb over it to escape, mistakes may have been made but the blood was on their hands.
I didn't bring this up initially to belittle the fight for the 96, on the contrary I did it to raise the context of the time, it was quite toxic which allowed the guilty to get away with the cover up and which we must not allow to happen again.

 

[class of 62]

Looking back now people will see the Liverpool fans as we see fans now but at that time the reputation Liverpool fans wasn't high, they were, after all, responsible for the slaughter of 39 Juventus fans four years earlier after which only 14 of their fans were successfully prosecuted and all of whom were walking the streets free as a bird by the time Hillsborough happened and none of whom, as I recall, were condemned by the city of Liverpool.
One reason Liverpool reached the semi-finals was very likely because there was no European football to disturb them, English teams were banned because of them.
I'm not arguing about this latest inquiry result, it's about time it came but it is easy to forget why those who are guilty were able to cast aspersions on decent Liverpool fans and not be questioned.
The government at the time didn't have utter contempt for Liverpool fans they had utter contempt for all football fans who the sports minister called the "effluence" which isn't pleasant but worse, when those of us argued that caging us in like animals was an insult let alone dangerous they were not interested in acting to have them removed, cages kill people but until Hillsborough authority didn't consider us football fans people and that's how they got away with it.
Thankfully it's coming to a proper end.

I think I might find this difficult to explain and in no way I'm a trying to cast asspertions upon anyone, but as someone who was a regular home and away at the time of Hillsboro and was actually at our semi final with wolves at Hillsboro 2 years earlier and saw what happenend that day from the seats above in the leppings lane end. we where very lucky not to have had injuries and even deaths that day and warnings from that day where obviously not heeded.
but going to football then was not like it is now, all football fans where treated as animals!.. lets face it many where including me and Liverpool had more than there fair share.. there reputation for being thieves , bindippers all round scum etc didn't come by accident!. and coming out of lime st station in them days when you played them you took your life in your hands unless you where mob handed.
the vast majority of Liverpool fans that day where nothing less than well behaved fans just going to support there team but like all teams support in them days had an element that made a reputation for all of football and the authourities dealt with everyone as if they where thugs/ hooligans etc. ..." the English desease " as it was known abroad then.

I pray for those families of the 96 that have lost there loved ones. 27 years is long long time for the truth to finally be proved.
I don't know how they will ever find comfort and I do really hope accountability to those who's failiures that day cost these innocent people there lives is much swifter ..

 

[Freddy Adu]

Looking back now people will see the Liverpool fans as we see fans now but at that time the reputation Liverpool fans wasn't high, they were, after all, responsible for the slaughter of 39 Juventus fans four years earlier after which only 14 of their fans were successfully prosecuted and all of whom were walking the streets free as a bird by the time Hillsborough happened and none of whom, as I recall, were condemned by the city of Liverpool.
One reason Liverpool reached the semi-finals was very likely because there was no European football to disturb them, English teams were banned because of them.
I'm not arguing about this latest inquiry result, it's about time it came but it is easy to forget why those who are guilty were able to cast aspersions on decent Liverpool fans and not be questioned.
The government at the time didn't have utter contempt for Liverpool fans they had utter contempt for all football fans who the sports minister called the "effluence" which isn't pleasant but worse, when those of us argued that caging us in like animals was an insult let alone dangerous they were not interested in acting to have them removed, cages kill people but until Hillsborough authority didn't consider us football fans people and that's how they got away with it.
Thankfully it's coming to a proper end.

You are completely right in what you say, but Heysel and Hillsborough were two separate tragedies. And just because you can understand why people bought the false narrative in 89, doesn't make it right. After all, people knew what really happened at the time. The police tried to cover it up and many of them persisted with it to this day, but people always knew the truth.

I also think it's wrong to take some sort of moral high ground (not saying you are, just fans in general), this club had more than it's fair share of hooligans, as did every other club in the country, and quite frankly it's a surprise that something like Heysel didn't happen sooner when you take into account the appalling state of the stadiums in those days.

 

[sherbornespurs]

The wall that wouldn't have collapsed if terrified people weren't squashed against it and trying to climb over it to escape, mistakes may have been made but the blood was on their hands.
I didn't bring this up initially to belittle the fight for the 96, on the contrary I did it to raise the context of the time, it was quite toxic which allowed the guilty to get away with the cover up and which we must not allow to happen again.

By the same token the wall wouldn't have collapsed if it and the rest of the stadium had been fit for purpose, and if there had been proper segregation of fans.

I had the uncomfortable experience of visiting the Heysal in 1979, six years before the disaster. A coach load of us (working in Germany at the time) went to see Belgium v Scotland. I'm not joking when I say we thought the driver had turned up at the wrong place as the stadium was in such poor condition - I'd seen local rec's in better condition.

At the turnstile I recall you had to duck & walk in sideways to get into the ground as the entrance was too low and narrow to walk in normally. The height of the brick built outer retaining wall of the stadium separating it from the car park was no higher than 8ft, so anyone could have got a leg up and scrambled over. I remember crumbling brickwork topped with coils of barbed wire.

Inside was even worse. Similar to the mortar of the exterior brickwork, the actual low-rake terracing was a mix of concrete and pebbles/shingle (aggregate) which chipped off easily when struck with your heel of your shoe. All this came into sharp focus years later when the disaster happened (I'm from Toxteth & had family at the game).

Regarding segregation, Juventus had 3 full bays of terracing behind one goal while Liverpool had only two bays at the other. The 3rd bay of terracing at Liverpool's end was reserved for 'neutrals' (Belgian's), but hundreds of tickets got into the hands of both Liverpool and Juventus fans. The rest is terrible history. Crumbling masonry was used as projectiles, heavily outnumbered Juventus fans, who never should have been at that end of the ground in the first place, made a run for it or were trapped against the wall that eventually collapsed.

As you quite rightly allude to the atmosphere at many games in the 80's (and the late 60's and all of the 70's) was absolutely toxic and there is no excuse for the behaviour of many fans in the Heysal that fateful night. But I still believe it to be no coincidence that the improvement in stadia design, policing, stewarding, ticketing and segregation has coincided with the huge improvement of fan behaviour.

 

[Navin R Johnson]

Phew, lots of points to answer and a few of my own to make, I'll try and work through in a logical order.

Re Spurger King's post: I usually like Spurger King's posts but in my opinion he is so way off the mark in this thread it's untrue.

Re Wellspurs: I absolutely agree, South Yorks Police were so institutionally corrupt that every piece of evidence and every verdict in every court case for a number of years should and probably will be re-examined, this goes right down to civil cases such as unfair dismisal, harassment claims etc, can anything they've said to a jury or tribunal be relied on?

Re Walkerboy: "I can't help but think that both of the above were judged against current day standards rather than what was around at the time."
One of the first things I was told when on a Health & Safety course was that the modern concensus was that health and safety have gone mad, the briefer's point was that it hasn't, nowadays we're applying the standards that were supposed to be applied when the Health & Safety Act 1974 was introduced rather than turning blind eyes to anything that got in the way of "getting the job done" as was the culture then.

I'll go back to my own thoughts on H&S a bit later on.

Freddy Adu: I agree, that's why governments of all hues have nothing but contempt for the electorate, you can peddle any old pony and people will believe it if you and the media wish them to.

Worcestersauce: I watched Heysel on TV rather than being there but again I see it as a failure of policing, profiteering by all those concerned in staging matches and deciding on venues, also I think that the could have been any club's fans reacting to provocation rather than Liverpool fans. Look at the recent history of football ground disasters and they all come down to profiteering, corner cutting and contempt for the fans.

DiscoD1882: I didn't read UpTownSpur's post as advocating violence rather than asking a reasonable question. I agree with your point that anyone who ever took part in the the events that lead to fans being caged in has a part to play.

sherbournespurs: Agree 100%

And now some of my own thoughts:

I see many parallells to the events of that day and the company I work for now.

David Duckenfield was in my opinion over promoted, people can be flattered, coerced or even harassed into taking jobs with the threat of losing their livelihood constantly held over them. I'm not making excuses for the man but in short he wasn't up to the job by his own admission, the unimaginable happened, he panicked and lied, from there there was no going back. Those above him who put him into that job must take some of the blame.

Whistleblowing is actively encouraged by my company. The reality is that anyone who does is filling in their P45. I believe the top table at boardroom level mean it when they say it but those in between the top table and my level make sure you will suffer because of it. I've gone out on a limb and while they haven't been able to get rid of me for it they've made sure I've paid for it in other ways. If that's the scenario in 2016 imagine trying to raise safety concerns 27 years ago, you'd have been laughed out of the place and fecked off down to the Jobcentre. Even to this day anybody who raises concerns that may prevent us "getting the job done" is either bone idle, a trouble maker or "one of those miltant f&ckers". So can you imagine going to your boss at the council, the FA, Sheffield Wednesday FC and saying "Let's postpone the match, the safety certificate isn't up to date" in 1989?

People aren't given the backing or don't believe they have the backing of their bosses when they want to raise matters that will have a financial impact or may affect "the job" so they hang back from making the big calls for fear of enormous consequences but it strikes me that many of the opportunities were missed over a period of time leading up to that day for both cultural and financial (and a combination of both) reasons. In short the whole affair was a massive failure of H&S combined with greed. Every time that fuckwit Clarkson sneers at H&S think of the 96 who may still be here to enjoy his buffoonery if there'd been some in evidence at the time.

Then there's Thatcher's input, South Yorkshire Police were her boot boys and above the law, football fans were beneath her contempt and so that's a lethal combination. This cover up goes right to the very top.

I hope that meandering post makes some sense.