Hillsborough inquests

[sherbornespurs]

sorry fella but going to football then was different .. loads turned up ticketless at Hillsboro that day and blagged the turnstiles as we all did in them days.. just an honest opinion.. not saying it was an overriding cause but it undoubtedly happened.

For my own peace of mind, would you mind quoting the source for this statement please. I've checked and all I can find is this from the original 1990 Taylor report:

(Lord Justice Taylor) accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".

Which after 2 years was exactly the same conclusion reached at the end of the Warrington inquest.

 

[Wellspurs]

I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong

It is human nature to try to get in free... but it is up to well paid officials to make sure we are safe in these situations.

 

[class of 62]

For my own peace of mind, would you mind quoting the source for this statement please. I've checked and all I can find is this from the original 1990 Taylor report:

(Lord Justice Taylor) accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".

Which after 2 years was exactly the same conclusion reached at the end of the Warrington inquest.

Alli can say is you aint going to have peace of mind!.
I cant quote a statment anywhere just the fact i travelled the length and breadth of the country through those years week in week out and know what football followers got up to then... i was one of those !!
Honestly mate if you think everyone is pure as driven fucking snow your a fool !. In those days there where less the double figure all ticket games through the leagues all season!.. supply for tickets for games like the semi's seriuosly outweighed demand.. far more than today !..if you believe nobody plotted up without tickets then fine but the fairies at the end of your garden are pissing themselves laughing at you.
It was a standard thing to blagg the turnstiles not just for big games but normal run of the mill games and turnstile operators where quite happy with small cash bonuses to let two or sometimes threes go through on one turnstile count !.
Sorry to upset your perfect scenario of the outcome but these things happened at hillsboro that day no matter what lord chief justice said !.

 

[sherbornespurs]

Alli can say is you aint going to have peace of mind!.
I cant quote a statment anywhere just the fact i travelled the length and breadth of the country through those years week in week out and know what football followers got up to then... i was one of those !!
Honestly mate if you think everyone is pure as driven fucking snow your a fool !. In those days there where less the double figure all ticket games through the leagues all season!.. supply for tickets for games like the semi's seriuosly outweighed demand.. far more than today !..if you believe nobody plotted up without tickets then fine but the fairies at the end of your garden are pissing themselves laughing at you.
It was a standard thing to blagg the turnstiles not just for big games but normal run of the mill games and turnstile operators where quite happy with small cash bonuses to let two or sometimes threes go through on one turnstile count !.
Sorry to upset your perfect scenario of the outcome but these things happened at hillsboro that day no matter what lord chief justice said !.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

After 27 long years of pain, loss and suffering, and knowing that the families of the 96 innocent victims have finally been vindicated I can assure you I really do have peace of mind - but there is still much work to do of course as the individuals and agencies who perpetrated those heinous acts are called to account for their actions.

Like you I too travelled up and down the country (and abroad) throughout the 'hooligan' dog years. From season '67 through to '74 I barely missed a game and witnessed all sorts of things: ambushings, chasings, theft, violence, punched, kicked the lot - it was bloody horrible and I sometimes wonder how so many of us managed to escape without a scratch.

I'll have to take your word about 'blagging' into grounds though as I honestly can't recall ever witnessing it in all the games I attended, apart from at Man City when a dad pushed his young child through the same turnstile as me to avoid him having to join the 'kids only' turnstile further along. However, in accepting your assertion that 'blagging' was widespread I don't accept that it was on the industrial scale (your comment was 'loads' in relation to Hillsborough) you seem to suggest and certainly not on a scale that would have been a contributory factor to what happened at Hillsborough - the same evidence based conclusion drawn by the Taylor report (1990), the Governments own Independent review (2012) and the Warrington inquest (2016).

 

[ohtottenham!]

Were the fans traveling in to different stations? The reason they gave for the ends they chose was that they wanted to keep the fans apart outside the stadium, like their paths would cross if they allocated the fans to different ends.

Yep, I think that was it. The fans of each team went to different stations depending on where they were coming from; one station was closer to the Spion Kop end, which was huge, and the other closer to the Leppings Lane end.

 

[UpTownSpur]

Just goes to show, if those in authority throw enough mud, some will always stick. There are people who still think Colin Stagg is guilty even though they found the real murderer. And some people seem unable to get past the negative stories that started coming out while some of the victims were standing dead in the Leppings Lane end.

 

[Mustard]

Just goes to show, if those in authority throw enough mud, some will always stick. There are people who still think Colin Stagg is guilty even though they found the real murderer. And some people seem unable to get past the negative stories that started coming out while some of the victims were standing dead in the Leppings Lane end.

I'm sure some people think the Rotherham girls were all 'up for it' too. And the battle of Orgreave was the fault of armed miners.

I mean the South Yorkshire police never lie do they?

 

[class of 62]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

After 27 long years of pain, loss and suffering, and knowing that the families of the 96 innocent victims have finally been vindicated I can assure you I really do have peace of mind - but there is still much work to do of course as the individuals and agencies who perpetrated those heinous acts are called to account for their actions.

Like you I too travelled up and down the country (and abroad) throughout the 'hooligan' dog years. From season '67 through to '74 I barely missed a game and witnessed all sorts of things: ambushings, chasings, theft, violence, punched, kicked the lot - it was bloody horrible and I sometimes wonder how so many of us managed to escape without a scratch.

I'll have to take your word about 'blagging' into grounds though as I honestly can't recall ever witnessing it in all the games I attended, apart from at Man City when a dad pushed his young child through the same turnstile as me to avoid him having to join the 'kids only' turnstile further along. However, in accepting your assertion that 'blagging' was widespread I don't accept that it was on the industrial scale (your comment was 'loads' in relation to Hillsborough) you seem to suggest and certainly not on a scale that would have been a contributory factor to what happened at Hillsborough - the same evidence based conclusion drawn by the Taylor report (1990), the Governments own Independent review (2012) and the Warrington inquest (2016).

In no way am i saying that blagging the turnstile was a comtributing factor to those inmocent fans losing there lives and at last someone may be brought to book.. my apologies mate!.. you understood the times and what went on but you will also know that liverpools lets say scally section was about the worst in the country at the time!.. and sadly that!, with the general animal like tratment of all football fans from kids to old men was also a contributing factor inho..
I do sincerly hope the guilty are found and punished but you as well as i know there will always be grey areas regarding the rep of a minority of fans that day too!..
Good luck .
.

 

[Navin R Johnson]

In no way am i saying that blagging the turnstile was a comtributing factor to those inmocent fans losing there lives and at last someone may be brought to book.. my apologies mate!.. you understood the times and what went on but you will also know that liverpools lets say scally section was about the worst in the country at the time!.. and sadly that!, with the general animal like tratment of all football fans from kids to old men was also a contributing factor inho..
I do sincerly hope the guilty are found and punished but you as well as i know there will always be grey areas regarding the rep of a minority of fans that day too!..
Good luck .
.

The point is, and several senior policemen have already pointed this out, the police are supposed to police in the real world, not some fictional perfect world where the working class football fan doffs his cap to the gentry and says "lawks a mercy, it's a fair cop guvnor" to an arresting officer. So, a proportion will turn up with a drink on them, a proportion will try to gain free entry, if that was the prevailing attitude at the time that's what the police should have been prepared for, you having a beer or blagging a ticket does not release the police from their duty of care to control the crowd or excuse their failure to plan for that scenario.

EDIT: I've just reread my post, it would have been quicker to say that it's the police's job to make sure those grey areas do not exist.

 

[nailsy]

David Conn was on this weeks Guardian Football weekly podcast episode discussing the inquiry and what comes next. He's only on for five minutes at the start of the episode, but it's worth a listen if you're interested in the case.

 

[dontcallme]

My earlier post was way too bombastic, and thoughtlessly offensive. Apologies to those offended by my wording.

That said, I agree with you. I watched it live on TV, and for years I fully agreed with the Liverpool fans. Ironically it wasn't until I read the non-redacted police reports that my opinion changed. For the most part the stuff omitted was about the way the police handled the unfolding situation, and clearly they were incompetent and liable. However, there are several reports about fans turning up without tickets, getting pissed in local bars, and ignoring megaphone warnings that rushing the ground would endanger fellow supporters. It's literally there in print from multiple witnesses.

Frankly the notion that 'Liverpool fans weren't pissed at Hillsborough' is ridiculous. It's a revised media whitewash. Do people really think that 100% of 1980s Liverpool fans would all have been sober as a judge on the day of an FA Cup semi?

The lion's share of the blame has to go to the stadium designers and the police. What I was attempting to say (very badly as it turns out) in the post you quoted is that there were some (certainly not all) Liverpool fans to blame too, and that it does irritate me that this has been glossed over by the majority of their supporters. I'm certainly not blaming those who died. I'm partly blaming some of those who lived.

The official, unedited versions of what happened report drunk fans piling into the stadium despite megaphone warnings from police on horseback stating exactly what was taking place inside. In what world are they in part not to blame? Grown adults being told they are putting the lives of fellow Liverpool fans in danger if they ignore the warnings. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.

I was at the first UK Foo Fighters gig at Reading when fans rushed the tent to see them. People ended up being crushed and rushed to hospital. My own sister had to fight her way out of what she described as "a living nightmare". I arrived late, saw the rush of people, and had the foresight to say to myself "you know what...this looks like a situation I don't want to be a part of". If there had been police on horseback shouting "stay back" through a megaphone, that decision would have been even easier.

I'd feel the same way if this had happened to Spurs (as it nearly did). The police were telling them to stop piling in, but a lot of their fans continued to do so anyway. When someone is shouting "danger" through a megaphone, those that ignore it should share some of the blame surely?

Thanks for the reply. Life is often too black and white and people simply take a side and don't acknowledge there are grey areas and the people whose side you are generally on can do things you disagree with at times.

This is clearly a very emotive subject so a level of walking on egg shells is probably needed.

ESPN did a really good documentary on the Hillsborough disaster. It was one-sided but presented facts in a way that I could believe and showed CCTV to back it up.

The doc showed the flow of Liverpool fans entering the stadium was not at a noticeable level higher than the ticket sales, I'd be interested in seeing or reading evidence that shows otherwise.

Fans were always drunk at games in the 80s. Do you have any examples of drunken behaviour by Liverpool fans creating a problem at Hillsborough? I haven't read anything suggesting a single drunken act that day created the situation or caused a death.

Also the problem did not seem to be the amount of fans but that they were all going through one area of the turnstiles which the police royally messed up on.

Happy to read your evidence showing the contrary though.

 

[Japhet]

In no way am i saying that blagging the turnstile was a comtributing factor to those inmocent fans losing there lives and at last someone may be brought to book.. my apologies mate!.. you understood the times and what went on but you will also know that liverpools lets say scally section was about the worst in the country at the time!.. and sadly that!, with the general animal like tratment of all football fans from kids to old men was also a contributing factor inho..
I do sincerly hope the guilty are found and punished but you as well as i know there will always be grey areas regarding the rep of a minority of fans that day too!..
Good luck .
.

It was easy for the public to accept the Police version of what happened at Hillsboro in the light of the earlier events at Heysel. We also look at events from the 80s with 2016 vision and football was a very different animal back then. Hooliganism was a very big problem and after the events in Belgium the Liverpool contingent after their disgraceful behaviour at Heysel were an easy target for the corrupt cover up. I've always thought that more recognition of what Liverpool fans did in Belgium would have garnered more public support for the Hillsboro victims campaign, but Liverpool FC and a lot of their community have largely ignored those events in favour of trumpeting their own grief at Hillsboro. There is one small plaque at Anfield commemorating Heysel but 2 large statues commemorating Hillsboro.

 

[Mustard]

 

[coypu]

Not seen this before but was a bulletin at the time. Jimmy Hill was a man who should have had more involvement in the organisation of football in this country. Interesting comments and footage of the event before time for any cover up.

 

[Drink!Drink!]

The point is, and several senior policemen have already pointed this out, the police are supposed to police in the real world, not some fictional perfect world where the working class football fan doffs his cap to the gentry and says "lawks a mercy, it's a fair cop guvnor" to an arresting officer. So, a proportion will turn up with a drink on them, a proportion will try to gain free entry, if that was the prevailing attitude at the time that's what the police should have been prepared for, you having a beer or blagging a ticket does not release the police from their duty of care to control the crowd or excuse their failure to plan for that scenario.

EDIT: I've just reread my post, it would have been quicker to say that it's the police's job to make sure those grey areas do not exist.

Agree, and how many times does it needed to be repeated, the police commander ordered an exit gate to be opened, a gate that filtered everyone who entered toward the already full pens

 

[sherbornespurs]

It was easy for the public to accept the Police version of what happened at Hillsboro in the light of the earlier events at Heysel. We also look at events from the 80s with 2016 vision and football was a very different animal back then. Hooliganism was a very big problem and after the events in Belgium the Liverpool contingent after their disgraceful behaviour at Heysel were an easy target for the corrupt cover up. I've always thought that more recognition of what Liverpool fans did in Belgium would have garnered more public support for the Hillsboro victims campaign, but Liverpool FC and a lot of their community have largely ignored those events in favour of trumpeting their own grief at Hillsboro. There is one small plaque at Anfield commemorating Heysel but 2 large statues commemorating Hillsboro.

Absolutely correct. The events at Heysal were pretty rapidly swept under the carpet by both the Belgian and the football authorities. Even in Turin there was but one Memorial Service, at which neither Liverpool nor the British Embassy offered up so much as a wreath. Juventus themselves appear to have not shown much interest in supporting or seeking 'justice' for the 32 Italians out of the 39 fans killed that fateful evening.
Unlike the stadia disasters at Ibrox (1971), Bradford (1985) and Hillsborough (1989) the cause of the 39 deaths at Heysal was a direct result of hooligan rioting fans, and quite rightly Liverpool fans took the majority of the blame for the events of that night.
There was an enquiry of sorts, but from what I can tell it all seemed a bit half-hearted - the 20 or so Liverpool fans charged and convicted for their part in the deaths had already been released from prison by the time the report was published. All I can think is that by (rightly) gaoling the Liverpool fans there was no reason to apportion blame elsewhere, despite the fact that it was UEFA officials who nominated a stadium that was totally unfit to host the game, it was Heysel Stadium management who knowingly and willingly sold tickets to Juventus fans in the Liverpool end and Belgian police who failed to properly control the crowd. There doesn't even seem to have been a 'lessons learned' or 'recommendations' report, similar to the one Lord Justice Taylor published in 1990 - 76 recommendations regarding stadia design, ticketing and policing - that was to be the blueprint behind the stadiums we have today. Below is an excellent, poignant summary of what happened.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/27/heysel-stadium-disaster-30th-anniversary

 

[Japhet]

Absolutely correct. The events at Heysal were pretty rapidly swept under the carpet by both the Belgian and the football authorities. Even in Turin there was but one Memorial Service, at which neither Liverpool nor the British Embassy offered up so much as a wreath. Juventus themselves appear to have not shown much interest in supporting or seeking 'justice' for the 32 Italians out of the 39 fans killed that fateful evening.
Unlike the stadia disasters at Ibrox (1971), Bradford (1985) and Hillsborough (1989) the cause of the 39 deaths at Heysal was a direct result of hooligan rioting fans, and quite rightly Liverpool fans took the majority of the blame for the events of that night.
There was an enquiry of sorts, but from what I can tell it all seemed a bit half-hearted - the 20 or so Liverpool fans charged and convicted for their part in the deaths had already been released from prison by the time the report was published. All I can think is that by (rightly) gaoling the Liverpool fans there was no reason to apportion blame elsewhere, despite the fact that it was UEFA officials who nominated a stadium that was totally unfit to host the game, it was Heysel Stadium management who knowingly and willingly sold tickets to Juventus fans in the Liverpool end and Belgian police who failed to properly control the crowd. There doesn't even seem to have been a 'lessons learned' or 'recommendations' report, similar to the one Lord Justice Taylor published in 1990 - 76 recommendations regarding stadia design, ticketing and policing - that was to be the blueprint behind the stadiums we have today. Below is an excellent, poignant summary of what happened.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/27/heysel-stadium-disaster-30th-anniversary

Excellent Guardian article. I fully support the grief and search for justice by the Hillsboro victims families but the wider grief and indignity of the general public of Liverpool leaves me cold when Heysel has been so low, or not even on their priorities list.

 

[nipponyid]

Interesting development...

Freemason link to Hillsborough cover-up investigated by police watchdog.
Independent Police Complaints Commission probes relationship between secret society and former senior police officers

Both Former Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, who had overall responsibility for policing at the match, and his predecessor Brian Mole were members of the Freemasons. Mr Duckenfield became Worshipful Master – the head of his local lodge – the year after the disaster.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...overup-ipcc-liverpool-sheffield-a7211906.html

 

[Dougal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-37368119

Seems crazy to me. Surely a bigger protest is not buying the paper rather than not stocking it?

 

[WalkerboyUK]

So they're just removing the option of people having a choice whether or not to buy the paper.
There will be plenty of people in Liverpool who have no affiliation whatsoever with the club or the events of 1988, who buy the paper. But stupidity wins...