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If its not perfect it can be improved.

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2005
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D.M. Why did you immediately try to misrepresent 'Jimmy's' opening statement re: what 'school' of thought he belongs to, when all he was doing was setting out an introduction to his essay? Your logical way of debating - although mostly appreciated on here - sometimes fails to see creativity.
Most interesting, and thought-provoking article by the way 'JimmyG2'
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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I don't actually reckon Palacios is a problem at all. Sometimes his passing is good and sometimes it isn't, but what is unerringly consistent is his ability to harry, delay and unsettle opposing midfielders.

Even when we are out of sorts, it takes a team like Man U to play through us. That was never true pre-Palacios. In seasons past, even West Brom could play through our midfield, with several Spurs appearing to stand about watching them do it.

Wilson makes us difficult to play against. He can pass straight into touch every 15 minutes (as opposed to twice per match, which is his average) and I'll forgive him, provided he keeps forcing opponents to do something really exceptional if they want to run through our midfield.

I think, even as he is currently playing, he is the most indispensable of our fit players.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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D.M. Why did you immediately try to misrepresent 'Jimmy's' opening statement re: what 'school' of thought he belongs to, when all he was doing was setting out an introduction to his essay? Your logical way of debating - although mostly appreciated on here - sometimes fails to see creativity.
Most interesting, and thought-provoking article by the way 'JimmyG2'

I didn't "misrepresent" anything. Read his words - they say what they say. If you start an article by setting up a false dichotomy, then you undermine every conclusion you draw from it. The article makes some very good points on its way to the end, but it is weakened as a result of setting up a straw man at its beginning.
 

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2005
3,813
935
I don't want to prolong this mini-debate, but D.M. in a way, you have proved my point....."they say what thay say". Words don't always "say what they say"....read some poetry. Also to referring to an opening generalized pattern as "setting up a false dichotomy"* is just not entering into the spirit of a thought-provoking essay.
*Dichotomy: "Division into two opposed or contradictory groups" (Webster's).
The only patterns that "say what they say" are mathematical numerals.
 

spurs_viola

Rui Costa,dreamspurs no10
Mar 10, 2005
2,454
0
It seems DM has taken the simple introductory statement about the author's position as a kind of dig at those who were stating they were happy as long as we win more games than lose and "if it's not broken why mend it". And David has been one of the most vocal supporters of that school of thought this season, proclaiming that he's happy for the team to carry Keane as long as we win more than lose, irrespective of his form.

I don't think JimmyG2 has meant any criticism there. He simply stated that he has a different point of view at the situation we have at the moment.
 

Wiener

SC Supporter
Jun 24, 2005
1,194
321
I didn't "misrepresent" anything. Read his words - they say what they say. If you start an article by setting up a false dichotomy, then you undermine every conclusion you draw from it. The article makes some very good points on its way to the end, but it is weakened as a result of setting up a straw man at its beginning.

Rather than "misrepresent" JimmyG2 it sounds like you failed to understand what he is trying to say. Suggesting that thinking 'If its not broken why fix it?' is the same as thinking

things are perfect as they are

is just plain wrong. The word "ridiculous" and the phrase "fan equivalent of bad journalism" spring to mind.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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I think a few people are coming afresh to a discussion that's been going on, partly between JimmyG2 and me, for a few weeks. The "if it ain't broke, dont fix it" phrase is one I've used repeatedly, but in a specific context: about Redknapp's decision to play a visibly-not-at-his best-personally-speaking Robbie Keane in a team that has nevertheless been getting pretty good results with him in it.

Seeing it applied, as an introductory theme-setter, in an article that covers a much more general context of the team's playing style, seems inaccurate and slanted to me, as well as slightly misrepresenting, by association, some things I've been writing.

I like JimmyG2's posts and always feel we can have an intelligent discussion. I just don't agree with the way he sets up his main argument in this piece.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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Rather than "misrepresent" JimmyG2 I sounds like you failed to understand what he is trying to say. Suggesting that thinking 'If its not broken why fix it?' is the same as thinking

...

is just plain wrong. The word "ridiculous" and the phrase "fan equivalent of bad journalism" spring to mind.

JimmyG2 writes clearly and this is what he wrote:

However I belong to the, 'If its not perfect it can be improved' tendency rather than the, 'If its not broken why fix it?' school of thought.

There is no other way to interpret that, other than that it implies that people who think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", also think "things are perfect as they are". That's what it says, in crystal-clear language. I don't agree with the premise and I don't agree with the distinction between the two points of view.

And, as one of the people who has repeatedly used the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" in a particular context, I especially don't like being linked by implication with the thought that things are perfect and cannot be improved, because that is what is a ridiculous suggestion.
 

Wiener

SC Supporter
Jun 24, 2005
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There is no other way to interpret that, other than that it implies that people who think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", also think "things are perfect as they are". That's what it says, in crystal-clear language. I don't agree with the premise and I don't agree with the distinction between the two points of view.

Speak for yourself. That is certainly not how I understand it. In answer to your hazy logic and rather patronising comments he goes on to say:

Of course there aren't just two attitudes to life or football. Its just a way of describing two general ways of looking at things, broad groupings if you like. A (Lazy) journalistic device if you must.
Not being broke doesn't neccesarily mean its perfect either.It could mean its doing the job as far as it goes but parts are wearing out and need looking at before they break.

Not too difficult to understand really.
 

Greenspur

Very old member
Sep 1, 2004
2,681
3,090
Try as I may, I cannot see that the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" means anything other than "it's working fine, so don't try to improve it - lest you make it worse". The implication is that, whilst not perfect, it appears to be working - so there's no room for meddling. Don't try to improve it.
 

Wiener

SC Supporter
Jun 24, 2005
1,194
321
Try as I may, I cannot see that the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" means anything other than "it's working fine, so don't try to improve it - lest you make it worse". The implication is that, whilst not perfect, it appears to be working - so there's no room for meddling. Don't try to improve it.

I concur.

I understand "if it ain't broke don't fix it" to mean something is not broken, in other it is working, it is functioning, therefore there is no need to fix it. Saying something is not broken is far from saying something is perfect. It is saying it is better not to change something that is working, because by changing it there is a risk of breaking it, of making it not work. The risk of making it not work outweighs the benefits of making it better.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
Oh Gawd! I didn't mean to set up one of these semantic exercises, interesting and fun as they may be. Shows that there's no real football to comment on, except for England friendlies in Qatar.( Get to Dover and keep going South.)
Filled my heart with pride to note that four Spurs players fiinished the game.

Anyway there is nothing personal here. I know Davidmatzdorf's position on this and he has a point but I don't agree. He is always a formidable person to disagree with but usually, broadly speaking we agree. Don't feel you have to take up my cause. There was no offence intended hence his 'smiley' at the end of his first piece.

He is not the only one who believes that Keane's lack of form is irrelevant while we are winning and/or doing well. If he were in a minority of one there would be no point in writing the piece based on the dichotomy with which I start. He would merely have an eccentric view in that case. Eccentrics I usuall avoid.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
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Anyway there is nothing personal here. I know Davidmatzdorf's position on this and he has a point but I don't agree ... There was no offence intended hence his 'smiley' at the end of his first piece.

Exactly.

The thread is full of comments from people whose opinions I respect and usually agree with.

I'm outvoted. I give up :wink:.
 
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