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I've no idea why I've slipped out of team but I won't give up - Dembele

jolsnogross

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2005
3,730
5,431
Dembele strikes me as another player we've broken or are trying our best to break. He's a classy midfielder with a good engine and a lot of strength and is held in very high esteem by opposing fans. He was quite an effective player for us playing as a proper midfielder in season 12/13.

He may be mystified by his current predicament exactly because he's following tactical instructions. It's not like being a defensive midfield water-carrier is a good role for him. I would prefer to see him and Mason playing next to each other and taking turns to break past the ball and into attack and building the rapport with each other to know when to sit and when to go based on the situation. But maybe the instruction for DMs is to just sit all the time. So he sits, and doesn't look very dynamic. But as others have said, it's not like Capoue is doing all that much protecting, and if anything, Capoue has an even more relaxed demeanor and isn't aggressive enough in the tackle or the press or on the ball.

It sort of sums us up at the moment - decent player under-performing but also not being used in a way that optimizes his ability. A problem he and his manager should probably resolve quickly.
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2005
16,047
18,013
To be honest, I am a bit miffed, I would have thought his remit was "work with and improve the players we signed last summer"

Obviously he's not keen on that after a few months.

Meh, don't know why I bother buying into the BS. All managers will want players they know. Fuck me, Davies was meant to be his number 1 target for LB wasn't he yet he doesn't play him.


Agreed, I always thought that Levy's aim was to find a coach that could work the players into a team and wring every ounce of talent from them. Poch himself said that he was more than happy with his squad and this despite bringing in players over the Summer which some are yet to feature or in Srombo's case even start a PL game.

I think that he is hamstrung into playing certain players because of their price tag and refuses to budge from his rigid system. He possibly now realises that he is fucked either way and to top things off the players do not understand his tactics? Not their fault but those same players understood a coach with no badges who took that very same set of players to a creditable sixth place finish during a season of turmoil.

Not saying that Poch does not need one or two additions but i do not believe that one or two will make a major difference to the system he wants to play because the magnificent seven didn't to AVB who played under a very similar system.

Levy will not tolerate another fire sale after blowing one hundred million only two seasons ago, and neither should he be expected to.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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Agreed, I always thought that Levy's aim was to find a coach that could work the players into a team and wring every ounce of talent from them. Poch himself said that he was more than happy with his squad and this despite bringing in players over the Summer which some are yet to feature or in Srombo's case even start a PL game.

I think that he is hamstrung into playing certain players because of their price tag and refuses to budge from his rigid system. He possibly now realises that he is fucked either way and to top things off the players do not understand his tactics? Not their fault but those same players understood a coach with no badges who took that very same set of players to a creditable sixth place finish during a season of turmoil.

Not saying that Poch does not need one or two additions but i do not believe that one or two will make a major difference to the system he wants to play because the magnificent seven didn't to AVB who played under a very similar system.

Levy will not tolerate another fire sale after blowing one hundred million only two seasons ago, and neither should he be expected to.

I must admit that it's looking like AVB all over again. FUcking 4-2-3-1 and doesn't know anything else. Just once, JUST ONCE, i'd love to see a 3 man MF in a 4-3-3 but we keep getting rigid managers.

To be fair to Sherwood, at least he mixed it up. Can't believe I just typed that, but it's the truth
 

thinktank

Hmmm...
Sep 28, 2004
45,893
68,893
So basically, when we were all excited about Poch working with our existing group of players and improving them, like he did at Southamton, what we really meant was let's totally change the squad as he can't work with them.

No doubt he needs backing but personally speaking I had a slight preference for Poch over FDB for the above reason, now we know he's not the magician we thought we have to let go of half our squad.

What do we do if we sign 4 or 5 of his top targets and it doesn't work out? We're proper fucked then, surely?

After how long though? Building a team takes time. We won't know until he's had a proper chance to get inside this club and really change things.

LVG isn't having a picnic at Manure and look at their spend! They're only gonna get out of it because they'll spunk many more millions than us in January, sort their back line out and then push for 4th.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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30,495
After how long though? Building a team takes time. We won't know until he's had a proper chance to get inside this club and really change things.

LVG isn't having a picnic at Manure and look at their spend! They're only gonna get out of it because they'll spunk many more millions than us in January, sort their back line out and then push for 4th.

But we got him in to improve our existing players, did we not? I thought this was the main thing in his favour, that and 18 months EPL experience.

Not having a go but we're just back to square 1 again, Poch probably told Levy whatever he wanted to hear to get our job and now he's not getting the results (because let's face it the players are playing shit and he can't pick a team or impose his philosophy) we're going to have to go back to market.

We shouldhave hired a guy who said "I'll need X Y and Z to move this club forward"

Poch didn't know any of our players intimately but he knew them, he played us enough times (and lost) and is meant to be a big video man so he must of known what players would have fitted the system.

It's just a mess mate, I don't blame Poch totally but it looks like he's just another passer by until we get someone with some decent experience that will command respect from the players, which let's face it, is looking like it's seriously lacking at the moment.
 

thinktank

Hmmm...
Sep 28, 2004
45,893
68,893
But we got him in to improve our existing players, did we not? I thought this was the main thing in his favour, that and 18 months EPL experience.

Not having a go but we're just back to square 1 again, Poch probably told Levy whatever he wanted to hear to get our job and now he's not getting the results (because let's face it the players are playing shit and he can't pick a team or impose his philosophy) we're going to have to go back to market.

We shouldhave hired a guy who said "I'll need X Y and Z to move this club forward"

Poch didn't know any of our players intimately but he knew them, he played us enough times (and lost) and is meant to be a big video man so he must of known what players would have fitted the system.

It's just a mess mate, I don't blame Poch totally but it looks like he's just another passer by until we get someone with some decent experience that will command respect from the players, which let's face it, is looking like it's seriously lacking at the moment.
We brought poch in to see what he could do with players we have, but, primarily, considering Levy gave him a 5 year contract, he was brought in to set up and develop a central culture of integration from our youth pool.

That's the money-saving/money-spinning idea behind bringing poch in under that length of contract to begin with imo.

I don't think Levy thought he'd have to entertain some of these players being jettisoned so soon but he'll just have to munch on it.

Will his instinct be to push everyone in front of the bus as it careers towards him, yes. But this time things are different imo, I think he will be forced to go along with poch, as the fans are have reached critical mass and it WILL get proper ugly if he gets the sacking stick out too soon.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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We brought poch in to see what he could do with players we have, but, primarily, considering Levy gave him a 5 year contract, he was brought in to set up and develop a central culture of integration from our youth pool.

That's the money-saving/money-spinning idea behind bringing poch in under that length of contract to begin with imo.

I don't think Levy thought he'd have to entertain some of these players being jettisoned so soon but he'll just have to munch on it.

Will his instinct be to push everyone in front of the bus as it careers towards him, yes. But this time things are different imo, I think he will be forced to go along with poch, as the fans are have reached critical mass and it WILL get proper ugly if he gets the sacking stick out too soon.

You could be right, personally I think people are just as despondent with Poch as they are Levy. Mainly because the "idea" of Poch was far better than the reality.

We'll see, at the end of the day, Poch knows that results like this are unacceptable, whatever the long term vision is. He's said as much himself.

What I think has happended is that he thought he'd come in and walk a top 6 finish, now he's in the chicken badge nightmare and is going backl to Levy saying "I had no idea these guys mentality is so poor" which maybe true, we all suspected it last season (though has become more apparent this year) but the whole reason we got him was to change that.

Yes, the youth set up thing was a big thing as well, a fair point. But the shirt to mid term success of the club should not take the dive it is, there are sufficient payers at the club for him to be doing far better than he is.

I think the thing that annoys me most about him is his rigidness, there's no felxibility there, so naturally, when results don't go our way, players will be looking at each other going WTF, why doesn't he try this or that.

You've got to admit, his team selections, subs and communication has been pretty dire, there is no excuse for that IMO.

On the last point (communication) I just wish he'd kept his translator, I would have had no problem with him speaking spanish in interviews, at least we could hear his thoughts in more detail rather than him fumbling around words like Ramos or Capello.
 

thinktank

Hmmm...
Sep 28, 2004
45,893
68,893
You could be right, personally I think people are just as despondent with Poch as they are Levy. Mainly because the "idea" of Poch was far better than the reality.

.

We don't know the reality yet as he's got to get rid of some of the dysfunctional mass and rebuild a team and instill ethos that flows right through this club.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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30,495
We don't know the reality yet as he's got to get rid of some of the dysfunctional mass and rebuild a team and instill ethos that flows right through this club.

What the dysfunctional mass that beat his side twice last season by a guy who hadn't even does his badges, that mass?

Look, come on, even you must have thought you'd see some pressing at least. The guy can't even get us to press, the most basic principle in his philosophy. That's not all the players fault IMO.

I'm not saying Poch out but it looks like he is going to do significantly worse than Tim, which when you think about it, is fucking MENTAL. No one would have thought that, let's be honest.

I hope it all comes good but I'm seeing nothing that has made me think it will. I'm not hard to please either, all I want to see are some glimpses, and Southampton match aside we've seen nothing.

I just don't think any of the players, bar the kids, have brought into him, they don't respect him. If we knew that before appointing him then none of us wouldhave wanted him, even you, mate.
 

thinktank

Hmmm...
Sep 28, 2004
45,893
68,893
What the dysfunctional mass that beat his side twice last season by a guy who hadn't even does his badges, that mass?

Look, come on, even you must have thought you'd see some pressing at least. The guy can't even get us to press, the most basic principle in his philosophy. That's not all the players fault IMO.

I'm not saying Poch out but it looks like he is going to do significantly worse than Tim, which when you think about it, is fucking MENTAL. No one would have thought that, let's be honest.

I hope it all comes good but I'm seeing nothing that has made me think it will. I'm not hard to please either, all I want to see are some glimpses, and Southampton match aside we've seen nothing.

I just don't think any of the players, bar the kids, have brought into him, they don't respect him. If we knew that before appointing him then none of us wouldhave wanted him, even you, mate.

I got off that merry-go-round. Not going over that shit on here again. I've responded to that line again and again and just bored of it now.

Tim's gone and will probably be at RM next season if they can beat off the competition, so it's unlikely he'll be coming back here.

Poch needs two windows, pundits have said, journalists have said, ex-players have said it. Fans don't get it.

I'm with the former.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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30,495
I got off that merry-go-round. Not going over that shit on here again. I've responded to that line again and again and just bored of it now.

Tim's gone and will probably be at RM next season if they can beat off the competition, so it's unlikely he'll be coming back here.

Poch needs two windows, pundits have said, journalists have said, ex-players have said it. Fans don't get it.

I'm with the former.

So he has one more window left then?

I want him to get until the end of the season so I'll be keen to see how we do from Jan onwards if what you say is true.

If he gets who he wants (or more or less who he wants - just like he did with Davies, Fazio and Bouli - I know they wern't first choices but they must have been approved to some extent) then what, in your opinion is an acceptable league finish?

For me, we simply have to get 7th or 8th but if we're so far behind by that point then it will already be lost.

I guess if he turns it around in Jan from a performance point of view, not results, then I can deal with that. Like I said all I want to see is some organised pressing and I'll be happy
 

thinktank

Hmmm...
Sep 28, 2004
45,893
68,893
So he has one more window left then?

I want him to get until the end of the season so I'll be keen to see how we do from Jan onwards if what you say is true.

If he gets who he wants (or more or less who he wants - just like he did with Davies, Fazio and Bouli - I know they wern't first choices but they must have been approved to some extent) then what, in your opinion is an acceptable league finish?

For me, we simply have to get 7th or 8th but if we're so far behind by that point then it will already be lost.

I guess if he turns it around in Jan from a performance point of view, not results, then I can deal with that. Like I said all I want to see is some organised pressing and I'll be happy

Nah, January and next summer. People who understand what's happening know it will take that to properly begin change what needs to be changed here.
 

E17yid

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2013
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Nah, January and next summer. People who understand what's happening know it will take that to properly begin change what needs to be changed here.

Ahh right, he needs 3 windows then.

I hope he's used to not getting who he wants and working with what he's given.
 

alamo

Don't worry be happy
Jun 10, 2004
5,047
7,226
Just get back to your best Moose.

Be hard in the tackle, glide past opponents and move play forwards.

Do that and you'll be one of the first on the team sheet. (y)
 

lis spur

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2006
2,571
5,946
a set of goalposts on each touchline might orientate him towards the proper goals ,instead of running/dribbling laterally .
 

LexingtonSpurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2013
13,456
39,042
According to quotes attributed to him when he took over he thought the squad was (translated) "super, smashing, great"?

All of a sudden the players ain't good enough and the pitch is way too small for crab football to be played.

Real question - because this could be a cultural issue - do people generally believe quotes from coaches and/or owners? Because from where I am sitting, I take everything reported in the press with a huge grain of salt - and if a manager/owner says something in the press, I assume it is because that is what they think the fans want to hear, or what they think is the "correct" answer, rather than their true feelings. I never assume the positive comments are truly indicative of their thoughts about the team or any specific player.

I see a lot of comments on the board taking quotes to heart, and it always amazes me to see such faith placed in comments made by a coach/owner.

In this particular instance, I would expect a coach to speak positively about his squad - what is he going to gain by being negative in the press? Lets say there is a player that he does not fancy - if he says that, he lowers the value of the player in any transfer negotiations, and he has now created a very awkward situation if the player does not transfer. It also ignores the basic management principle that you praise in public and criticize in private. There are exceptions, but you don't generally start your tenure with a club by talking about their shortcomings in public.
 

thinktank

Hmmm...
Sep 28, 2004
45,893
68,893
Real question - because this could be a cultural issue - do people generally believe quotes from coaches and/or owners? Because from where I am sitting, I take everything reported in the press with a huge grain of salt - and if a manager/owner says something in the press, I assume it is because that is what they think the fans want to hear, or what they think is the "correct" answer, rather than their true feelings. I never assume the positive comments are truly indicative of their thoughts about the team or any specific player.

I see a lot of comments on the board taking quotes to heart, and it always amazes me to see such faith placed in comments made by a coach/owner.

In this particular instance, I would expect a coach to speak positively about his squad - what is he going to gain by being negative in the press? Lets say there is a player that he does not fancy - if he says that, he lowers the value of the player in any transfer negotiations, and he has now created a very awkward situation if the player does not transfer. It also ignores the basic management principle that you praise in public and criticize in private. There are exceptions, but you don't generally start your tenure with a club by talking about their shortcomings in public.
Save that post, you'll need to use it again...and again.

Explaining the obvious to people on here can use up a lot of time, saving this post will help.
 

Kendall

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2007
38,502
11,933
Real question - because this could be a cultural issue - do people generally believe quotes from coaches and/or owners? Because from where I am sitting, I take everything reported in the press with a huge grain of salt - and if a manager/owner says something in the press, I assume it is because that is what they think the fans want to hear, or what they think is the "correct" answer, rather than their true feelings. I never assume the positive comments are truly indicative of their thoughts about the team or any specific player.

I see a lot of comments on the board taking quotes to heart, and it always amazes me to see such faith placed in comments made by a coach/owner.

In this particular instance, I would expect a coach to speak positively about his squad - what is he going to gain by being negative in the press? Lets say there is a player that he does not fancy - if he says that, he lowers the value of the player in any transfer negotiations, and he has now created a very awkward situation if the player does not transfer. It also ignores the basic management principle that you praise in public and criticize in private. There are exceptions, but you don't generally start your tenure with a club by talking about their shortcomings in public.

If he didn't believe it, he shouldn't have take the job, because with the outlay, there were never going to be wholesale changes.
 

Black

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
4,807
4,872
Sounds like people are making same excuses they made for AVB.

Two stubborn managers out of their depth, well I guess we will see how this pans out as long as we don't get relegated it will be a good season.
 
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