Jenas vs Mackay

[Legend10]

I am old enough to have seen Mackay in his prime and he is my favourite player of all time. The comparison with Jenas, however, is not really fair.

The game has changed a lot since the 60s. Dave Mackay (or Chopper Harris or Norman Hunter) would not get through a match in the modern game without a card. Tackles from behind and shoulder-barging keepers were still legal in the 60s. Sendings off for foul play was almost unheard off. Today's game is also a lot faster and whatever you think of Jenas, he is a wonderful athlete.

I have never rated Jenas (I was against buying him in the first place) but the comparison with the great Dave is not fair.

Not even in his early days at the Toon?

 

[phil]

Not even in his early days at the Toon?

Not even when he was at Nottingham

 

[gibbs131]

But we averaged more points when they weren't playing than when they were. When Zokora didn't feature, we didn't lose a single game last season.

Very misleading since Zok played a LOT of games. tut tut

What wins did we generate in the league when he was not playing? What was the quality of op? Home or away etc?

 

[phil]

Very misleading since Zok played a LOT of games. tut tut

What wins did we generate in the league when he was not playing? What was the quality of op? Home or away etc?

Don't worry, Zokora will soon be off to the ANC

 

[doubledecker]

Who did he ( Jol ) say this to? ( Zokora can't pass or shoot )

Daniel Comolli but Comolli bought Zokora anyhow.

 

[gibbs131]

Jermain Jenas:

Spurs: Premiership: Played 64 Scored 13



A dip in form and people have VERY short memories.

 

[llamafarmer]

No, he's not, but by the same token he's not as good as he could, and should, be. He has all the attributes to be a top-drawer midfielder, but something's missing. Self-belief, maybe? You just don't get the sense that he is going to step up and really boss the midfield, and someone who will do that is what we need. Hopefully, Ramos will succeed in pulling that out of him.

Great post! :clap:

 

[Legend10]

Not even when he was at Nottingham

That I can understand as he was under the radar at Forest and made relatively few appearances.

But in his early days at Newcastle he was excellent culminating in him winning the YOUNG PLAYER OF THE YEAR award. I find it a bit odd that anybody wouldn't rate him through this period as he was being raved about in most footballing circles.

 

[doubledecker]

Don't worry, Zokora will soon be off to the ANC

Is he still in his national team ? Surely not

 

[Legend10]

Great post! :clap:

Not really because players of JJ's ilk rarely boss midfields.

JJ is a straight up and down player and his real strength is his ability to get beyond the front 2 to nick goals and move back 4's.

Players like this rarely boss midfields but they flourish when their partners do.

No coincidence that JJ was a far more effective player alongside Carrick for exactly this reason, no manager worth his salt would be looking for a JJ type player to boss a midfield

 

[gibbs131]

Okay how about this: What teams midfielder can you remember totally dominating Jenas? He and Zok practically takes the ops midfield OUT of the equation when playing. We always lose because of set pieces and clumsy green defending.

The pair is a good base for stars like Bebs, Lennon and Keane to shine.

 

[gibbs131]

Not really because players of JJ's ilk rarely boss midfields.

You don't need to go in two footed to "boss" a midfield.

Tell me, which midfielder bossed JJ recently? How many times have you seen JJ hang his head because he messed up and it led to a goal in open play?

 

[Legend10]

You don't need to go in two footed to "boss" a midfield.

Tell me, which midfielder bossed JJ recently? How many times have you seen JJ hang his head because he messed up and it led to a goal in open play?

You miss understand my point Gibbs.

JJ can dig in, there is no doubt about that in my mind and invariably does.

But I don't see bossing a midfield as digging in etc, to boss a midfield you really need to be an excellent passer of the ball and use it effectively and ensure that you keep good shape as a side.

This isn't JJ's game, JJ is an energy player and flourishes next to a player who does boss a midfield as it frees him up to make his runs beyond the front 2, arrive late in the box etc. JJ was excellent for us next to Carrick and would be again with the right partner, I don't see JJ's slip in contribution as his fault. In the main he has been paired with the wrong type of player.

People talking about JJ bossing the game don't know what they are talking about, if a manager wanted JJ to boss things for him he would want him getting on the ball all the time and would be wasting his his natural ability and would probably unbalance the team.

Having seen very limited time of KPB I expect Ramos to use that pairing a lot and JJ will be more effective with him.

 

[gibbs131]

Good points. I think having the Prince and JJ in the middle would be entertaining. But I would only play that if Ledders was behind them to clean up! Or Malbs was played on the right instead of Lennon (Lennon, Prince and JJ may be a little too soft for away games)

 

[joey55]

Not really because players of JJ's ilk rarely boss midfields.

JJ is a straight up and down player and his real strength is his ability to get beyond the front 2 to nick goals and move back 4's.

Players like this rarely boss midfields but they flourish when their partners do.

No coincidence that JJ was a far more effective player alongside Carrick for exactly this reason, no manager worth his salt would be looking for a JJ type player to boss a midfield

Give us some examples of the kind of player you mean. It's just far easier to understand when you give names of others so people can see how they effect the game and compare that to (in this case) JJ. I go very hot and cold on JJ and at the moment I'm cold. Though, to be fair, I do feel that he isn't helped by the midifeld options we have to play next to him.

 

[degoose]

i really think we were stupid to get rid of davids, i agree about JJ needing a crrick type player. Zokora doesnt seem to stay deep in midfield and link the defence to midfield. For the big teams you have, gilberto silva,makele, carrick or hargreaves, diarra .

Theres so many big teams that have great defensive midfielders. I believe if we had one then JJ would improve massively. JJ isnt any lampard or gerrard but they always play with a heavily defensive player and this lets them go about their job like they are meant to do.

 

[ollie_spurs]

Or Malbs was played on the right instead of Lennon (Lennon, Prince and JJ may be a little too soft for away games)

All of those are harder than Chimbonda and Zokora. It's been a long time since i've seen such soft players in a Spurs shirt (and that's saying something). It's a shame in the case of Chimbonda because if he toughened up a bit, he would be an excellent defender. JJ gets stuck in more than Zokora...and can pass better...and header better...and score goals.

 

[Legend10]

Give us some examples of the kind of player you mean. It's just far easier to understand when you give names of others so people can see how they effect the game and compare that to (in this case) JJ. I go very hot and cold on JJ and at the moment I'm cold. Though, to be fair, I do feel that he isn't helped by the midifeld options we have to play next to him.

There are your obvious examplaes such as Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira and your not such obvious examples would be the likes of Tugay and Alonso, for us Michael Carrick was such a player.

They get on the ball, keep it moving, set the tempo and give their sides shape, they are all top draw passers and players you want in possesion when you have the ball.

The only such player for us now is the Hudd but his game lacks in too many other areas.

Bringing it back to JJ and this isn't a dig at JJ in anyway but he is a player who is at his best when he is not in possesion of the ball. By that I mean when he is on the ball in midfield areas he isn't much threat to the opposition and he is rarely going to hurt them and his technical ability in this area is ok but nowhere near great and he doesn't bring much to the team. Put a Carrick, Tugay, Alonso type player next to him and JJ all of a sudden becomes a real threat. Few midfield players have a natural ability to run beyond the front 2, JJ has it in spades, he times his runs well and has an energy which allows him to do it again and again.

He isn't and never should be viewed as a bosser of games or midfields, to say that he is or should be is ignorance about what JJ's abilities reall are and how he should be most effectively used. His game has suffered because he has been paired with the wrong partners since Carrick left.

In very brief glimpses I look at KPB and see a style of player who whilst not in the class of the players above could well be a partner that will allow JJ to go and do what he is good at. Jenas is what I would call a straight line player and should be encouraged to play in these lines.

In summary I would say the less time JJ spends on the ball whilst we are in possesion probably the more effective he will be and the more dangerous we will probably be.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Another Jenas-bashing thread...yawn yawn.

Get off the guys back please would you he aint half as bad as some of you make out.

Watching him on the Tv you wouldnt appreciate his work rate to be fair to some of you though.

:clap:

Ok so i'm a JJ fan.
Yes he has many faults and his biggest 1 is that he doesn't grab a game by the throat like a Roy Keane and lacks self confidence and authority but he's by far and away our best central midfield player who covers a huge amount of ground and is just about the only player in our team that breaks up the oppositions moves.
Not a crowd pleaser but goes about his job quietly and efficiently unlike Zoko who always plays to the crowd and for this reason gets away with alot more.
Twice the player and movement of Zokora and is desperate for a partner like he had in Carrick.

 

[Wellspurs]

For all our younger readers who still can't believe, like my missus that Gabby got knocked off the dancing programme..... her dad Terry was a hard B. in our midfield.