Jenas vs Mackay

[shelfsideyid]

Didn't read whole thread, but JJ & Mackay??
No analagy in the world can possibly do justice to the chasm in class/ability/attitude/status etc between this hugely miss-matched pair.

JJ, is sooooooo frustrating, appears to have all the tools to be a hugely effective midfielder (ala Gerrard) able to dominate games & become the lynchpin of a side screaming out for just such a figure. On occasions this does shine through, and you can't fail to be impressed, but appears he lacks possibly the most important aspect (which cannot be trained or learned) the sheer bloody mindedness, and mental attitude, which sadly means he will never be the great we need.
Cheers

 

[joey55]

There are your obvious examplaes such as Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira and your not such obvious examples would be the likes of Tugay and Alonso, for us Michael Carrick was such a player.

They get on the ball, keep it moving, set the tempo and give their sides shape, they are all top draw passers and players you want in possesion when you have the ball.

The only such player for us now is the Hudd but his game lacks in too many other areas.

Bringing it back to JJ and this isn't a dig at JJ in anyway but he is a player who is at his best when he is not in possesion of the ball. By that I mean when he is on the ball in midfield areas he isn't much threat to the opposition and he is rarely going to hurt them and his technical ability in this area is ok but nowhere near great and he doesn't bring much to the team. Put a Carrick, Tugay, Alonso type player next to him and JJ all of a sudden becomes a real threat. Few midfield players have a natural ability to run beyond the front 2, JJ has it in spades, he times his runs well and has an energy which allows him to do it again and again.

.

Sorry, I didn't mean the player next to him, I meant what other players do you see as JJ type players? I understand what you are saying about JJ's runs, but I don't see that as being enough in a 442, and wanted to know another similar player we could compare him to. For me JJ has to do more than say Cahill, who plays either in a 451 or 411.

Incidently, what you've said about the player next to him is exactly what I think. However, those kind of players are very tough to come by. I still don't think our fans realise how vital to us Carrick was and what a huge season he had 2005/6. There are so few CMs who can play that deep sitting role but still dictate the tempo of the team. There are those that can do it in 451, but to play it successfully in a 442 you have to be a special player. Look at the praise Hamman, Makekele and Campo have got in recent seasons and they do it in a 3 man CM. In reality I think we'd have more success playing a flat middle 2, both good quality box to box players. Appiah is definitely available in Jan and I'd love us to sign him.

 

[phil]

You don't need to go in two footed to "boss" a midfield.

Tell me, which midfielder bossed JJ recently? How many times have you seen JJ hang his head because he messed up and it led to a goal in open play?

Fabregas and Arteta

 

[Legend10]

Fabregas and Arteta

I don't think that this is true.

Put simply Arsenal bossed Spurs not Fabregas bossed JJ.

We made the pitch so big against a superior passing side that we were always going to be outplayed in this area. We would be looking for JJ to get forward in the same way Fabregas did for them so if Fabregas bossed anybody it would have been the Hudd and JJ would have more been matched up with Flamini.

As for Arteta he played on the right side of midfield for Everton against us, so how did he boss JJ?

 

[Legend10]

Sorry, I didn't mean the player next to him, I meant what other players do you see as JJ type players? I understand what you are saying about JJ's runs, but I don't see that as being enough in a 442, and wanted to know another similar player we could compare him to. For me JJ has to do more than say Cahill, who plays either in a 451 or 411.

Incidently, what you've said about the player next to him is exactly what I think. However, those kind of players are very tough to come by. I still don't think our fans realise how vital to us Carrick was and what a huge season he had 2005/6. There are so few CMs who can play that deep sitting role but still dictate the tempo of the team. There are those that can do it in 451, but to play it successfully in a 442 you have to be a special player. Look at the praise Hamman, Makekele and Campo have got in recent seasons and they do it in a 3 man CM. In reality I think we'd have more success playing a flat middle 2, both good quality box to box players. Appiah is definitely available in Jan and I'd love us to sign him.

In my opinion you are right about what JJ does not being enough in a 442, but this isn't all to do with JJ, it's to do with his partners. As we have discussed he was in my opinion excelllent with Carrick as they complementedeach other perfectly and both are quite unique central midfield players. Carrick for the reasons you gave and JJ because very few CM's posses the ability to make endless runs he can when paired with the correct player and combine it with the athleticism to do his defensive work as well.

JJ's problems are definitely partner related as he is being forced to play a game that doesn't suit his ability.

Appiah I like but personally I want to see a player that takes us back to the balance we had with Carrick & JJ. In club football apart from Carrick & Gerrard or Carrick and Lampard type pairings it would be difficult to find a better balanced one than Carrick & JJ.

If I was Levy/Comolli/Ramos whoever it is who does the deals I would be offering Utd their 18 million back in January to get Carrick back and I would very seriously consider an offer of Berbs for Carrick + some cash.

I started a thread in the Summer asking if anybody would do a deal which saw Berbs going to Utd and us getting Carrick and buying Anelka in return. Most people pretty much said I was an idiot, I wonder how many people would do that deal now?

As for JJ type players, I class Lampard as one, gets beyond the front 2 and threatens the goal and although Chelsea still play a lot with a 3 he can also do it in a 2, but I would never say that Lampard bosses games and when you take his natural game away from him he looks distinctly average, ala England.

I see Barton as another 1, he can do it in a 2. And funnily enough I see another player at Chelsea like this in Sidwell, he played alot like this at Reading with Harper, but it was Harper who would boss the games, setting the tempo, keeping the ball moving and giving shape etc.

I see why and understand why so many people are disappointed with JJ but I really believe to get the best out of players you have to use them properly and pair them up properly. Football is played in pairs all over the pitch and in recent times JJ has played with an unbalanced partner and it has really affected his game.

I for 1 stand by him and am certain that JR will get the best out of him by finding him the right partner.

 

[joey55]

In my opinion you are right about what JJ does not being enough in a 442, but this isn't all to do with JJ, it's to do with his partners. As we have discussed he was in my opinion excelllent with Carrick as they complementedeach other perfectly and both are quite unique central midfield players. Carrick for the reasons you gave and JJ because very few CM's posses the ability to make endless runs he can when paired with the correct player and combine it with the athleticism to do his defensive work as well.

JJ's problems are definitely partner related as he is being forced to play a game that doesn't suit his ability.

Appiah I like but personally I want to see a player that takes us back to the balance we had with Carrick & JJ. In club football apart from Carrick & Gerrard or Carrick and Lampard type pairings it would be difficult to find a better balanced one than Carrick & JJ.

If I was Levy/Comolli/Ramos whoever it is who does the deals I would be offering Utd their 18 million back in January to get Carrick back and I would very seriously consider an offer of Berbs for Carrick + some cash.

I started a thread in the Summer asking if anybody would do a deal which saw Berbs going to Utd and us getting Carrick and buying Anelka in return. Most people pretty much said I was an idiot, I wonder how many people would do that deal now?

As for JJ type players, I class Lampard as one, gets beyond the front 2 and threatens the goal and although Chelsea still play a lot with a 3 he can also do it in a 2, but I would never say that Lampard bosses games and when you take his natural game away from him he looks distinctly average, ala England.

I see Barton as another 1, he can do it in a 2. And funnily enough I see another player at Chelsea like this in Sidwell, he played alot like this at Reading with Harper, but it was Harper who would boss the games, setting the tempo, keeping the ball moving and giving shape etc.

I see why and understand why so many people are disappointed with JJ but I really believe to get the best out of players you have to use them properly and pair them up properly. Football is played in pairs all over the pitch and in recent times JJ has played with an unbalanced partner and it has really affected his game.

I for 1 stand by him and am certain that JR will get the best out of him by finding him the right partner.

I remember that thread, because I said I'd do the deal even without Anelka.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=19321

 

[thejames]

I don't rate Carrick that highly. I think he too can be frustrating and ineffective, and his performances very much depend on who he has beside him. I thought the biggest loss when he went was the MC/JJ partnership. He made Jenas look good. JJ's never been the same since.

 

[Legend10]

I remember that thread, because I said I'd do the deal even without Anelka.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=19321

That thread makes some pretty interesting reading now with the benefit of hindsight.

I wonder how many people who posted on that thread have changed their mind.

 

[Dannyspur]

The main problem with Jenas and Zokora at the moment is their inability to keep the ball within six feet of them! Zokora goes off on long dribbles and nine times out of ten he loses it because he lets it get away from him. Jenas's control is sadly lacking in the first place - if the ball comes at him with any pace, it seems to bounce off him and he is then struggling to keep hold of it. If we could keep hold of the ball instead of handing it to the opposition we would stand half a chance in games.
Back on the main theme to this thread, comparing Jenas to Mackay is like comparing Mr Bean to Mr T.

 

[sloth]

I started a thread in the Summer asking if anybody would do a deal which saw Berbs going to Utd and us getting Carrick and buying Anelka in return. Most people pretty much said I was an idiot, I wonder how many people would do that deal now?

I would.

 

[SpurSince57]

And if Berba goes berserk between now and Christmas?

I certainly wouldn't say no to Carrick returning, but it seems highly unlikely, and would he take the pay cut? Another possibility could be Gilberto, who's reportedly gone right off his carrots and has very droopy ears.

 

[Legend10]

I would.

I would to Sloth,

As much as I think Berbs is an incredible player (when he puts his mind to it). It has to be about the overall functionality and balance of the team and its hard to see how the balance wouldn't be significantly improved.

 

[Legend10]

And if Berba goes berserk between now and Christmas?

I certainly wouldn't say no to Carrick returning, but it seems highly unlikely, and would he take the pay cut? Another possibility could be Gilberto, who's reportedly gone right off his carrots and has very droopy ears.

Even better if Berba went on a run now, it would just increase our position in negotiations with Utd.

As for whether it could happen, I think not because of the number of injuries Utd have had to deal with in this area. Hargreaves and Scholes have been a problem this season however I don't believe ferguson sees carrick as 1st choice there and who would he prefer to have in his squad Carrick or Berba? Personally I think Berba and this just may see us in with a shout, especially after Fergusons comments about saha this week, they really do need a centre forward figure.

As for Carricks short fall in salary that would be part of any proposed deal and Utd would probably have to make up the difference.

I don't think it will happen and I believe JR will make a real push for Poulsen and may well be prepared to wait for the summer to get him.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think some of you are over simplifying a little. As a few of us have pointed out many times the problem isn't just a personnel one, it is a formation and style of football one. If we want to play expansive football in a 442 your CM pairing must be fucking dynamos. You also must have balance with good wide players who also get up and down. The problem is, nearly all of our current CM's lack the allroundness to play that way. They are all a little deficient in one area or another. They all lend themselves to a 5 man system more than a 4. I would love to see us attempt this, at least away from home as it would also help defensively and remove the responsibilty of defending from the front (which none of our strikers do). With players like Jenas, KPB, Malbranque, Bale, Lennon, lee, Chimbonda we would be able to attack from all angles.

Carrick plays much better in a 4 I think therefore I would only really want Carrick back if we were going to pair him with an uber CM (like a young Davids) who would take more of the ball winning work load, allowing Carrick a little more forward movement.

As some of you may remember I started a thread stating that we should sign Anelka in the summer. he is the player that Bent will never be but aspires to.

I would sign Anelka tomorrow and swap him for Bent, Defoe and keane if necessary. He's as quick as Defoe, as clever as Keane and as strong as Bent. he is also intelligent and hard working. Him and Berbatov would be fantastic.

 

[Legend10]

I think some of you are over simplifying a little. As a few of us have pointed out many times the problem isn't just a personnel one, it is a formation and style of football one. If we want to play expansive football in a 442 your CM pairing must be fucking dynamos. You also must have balance with good wide players who also get up and down. The problem is, nearly all of our current CM's lack the allroundness to play that way. They are all a little deficient in one area or another. They all lend themselves to a 5 man system more than a 4. I would love to see us attempt this, at least away from home as it would also help defensively and remove the responsibilty of defending from the front (which none of our strikers do). With players like Jenas, KPB, Malbranque, Bale, Lennon, lee, Chimbonda we would be able to attack from all angles.

Carrick plays much better in a 4 I think therefore I would only really want Carrick back if we were going to pair him with an uber CM (like a young Davids) who would take more of the ball winning work load, allowing Carrick a little more forward movement.

As some of you may remember I started a thread stating that we should sign Anelka in the summer. he is the player that Bent will never be but aspires to.

I would sign Anelka tomorrow and swap him for Bent, Defoe and keane if necessary. He's as quick as Defoe, as clever as Keane and as strong as Bent. he is also intelligent and hard working. Him and Berbatov would be fantastic.

Interesting post BC

I think that you can play expansively enough ina 442 with the right players as you say. Where I think that we disagree is that I believe Carrick & JJ have proved that they are a pair that can do this.

When they played together they may well have been bolstered by Davids but Steed doesn't actually play that differently to Davids. He might be slightly more offensively minded but he still does the dog work throughout the game and along with JJ is probably our hardest working player.

I would personally be very happy with a midfield of

Lennon........Carrick.........JJ..........Steed

I think that quartet gives you a bit of everything, it can attack, defend, pass the ball, run at people, dig in when it has to and has pace and with Carrick and JJ size. But the most important thing is that it has balance and as Bale progresses as a LB it's no bad thing to have a LM player who comes inside opening the space for Bale to drive into.

I totally agree with what you say, football is far from putting your best ot most technical X1 players out.

Balance and functionality combined with assets like pace, skill, energy, discipline, desire etc with patterns of play is how you build a team.

Not to mention of course what you do at set pieces.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Speaking of set pieces. I know we are shit at defending them but we are just as bad at taking them. JJ's efforts have never really improved. We waste our set pieces terribly without ever looking threatening. We never seem to whip them into that dangerous area or try anything that looks vaguely rehearsed. Just the big floater.(no pun intended)

 

[gibbs131]

Fabregas and Arteta

Lol. No. Do you watch the games?

 

[Legend10]

Lol. No. Do you watch the games?

I think this is actually quite a sarcastic but fair question.

I think that people do write things even though they haven't watched the game otherwise how could they say such things.

I mean how on earth could anybody say that Arteta bossed Jenas?

It's just crazy.

 

[gibbs131]

I think this is actually quite a sarcastic but fair question.

I think that people do write things even though they haven't watched the game otherwise how could they say such things.

I mean how on earth could anybody say that Arteta bossed Jenas?

It's just crazy.

I think he just picked 2 players who are in good form/current press darlings.

I like the way our players under Ramos seem to be playing to their strengths at last. Like JJ scoring, Lennon dribbling, Zok busting a gut, Daws heading every ball etc etc.

Promising start for sure.

 

[gibbs131]

Speaking of set pieces. I know we are shit at defending them but we are just as bad at taking them. JJ's efforts have never really improved. We waste our set pieces terribly without ever looking threatening. We never seem to whip them into that dangerous area or try anything that looks vaguely rehearsed. Just the big floater.(no pun intended)

When Bale is back I think that will be covered.