Juande Ramos - Tactical Genius?

[joey55]

And better coaches too. Otherwise anyone could coach a team. Just get the best players you can and sorted...
A better coach can organise the defense better, can teach a player to defend better, can pick up the best defenders to face a particular opponent, can spot quicker how the opposition are hurting his team and act accordingly. Even not touching the defense he can improve it by making the rest of the team work harder and better on defensive tasks.

On another note when Ramos went 3-5-2 I think he wanted his three best passers in midfield playing close to each other. Berbatov found more space to operate a few meters behind and Malbranques's perfomance improved tenfold. The proble was at the back where the CBs didn't know at times who was supposed to mark who allowing West Ham shots without having to work for them.

But let's give it a bit of time. After all Ramos has only been around for 1 month with no preseason to fully work the different systems he is trying to implement.

And that to me is the key. I don't think just anyone can be a coach, but I think the difference in ability of coaches is often exaggerated and can more reallistically be accounted for by their ability to buy the right players or have the right players bought for them. I think more than anything the England job proves that. Too many good coaches suddenly become seen as incompetent as a result of English fans and media refusal to the limitations of our players. There are very few examples of a coach coming in (certainly in Engalnd) and dramatically improving things without making some very astute purchases or the previous coach going on to prove he was fairly incompetent.

At the end of the day all coaches take the same FIFA coaching badges and the set up at set pieces etc will vary little, particuarly in England. Sam Allardyce is a coach known for his ability to organise teams at set pieces, but at Newcastle it seems no matter what he tries it won't work. I suspect this will change within the next 12 months as he gets in the right players. Spurs have always been a team that concedes goals, so we brought in a coach known for his defensive work called George Graham. The result was no better than the likes of Gerry Francis (despite a 6 match without conceding). Rafa Benitez's Valencia team was always the best deffesively in Spain, even when they finished 5th! Yet, with a new group of players he can't get them to be as tight aat the back. So yes, I agree coaching has a role to play, but ultimately it pails in significance to a coaches ability to pick, buy or be bought the right players.

I don't think it is Ramos that needs to be given time. He has proven himself to be a competent coach. I think that is all you can ask for. The people who should be under scrutiny are those that provide him with the players. If he fails to take us to the CL next season, I don't think he should be the guy in the firing line (nor did I Jol), unless we have a total disaster of a season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BBC said 58%-42% as did ESPN :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/live_text/5264206.stm

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/match?id=221337&cc=5739

The point about Everton is that they weren't a great defensive team before last season. Even in their CL qualifying season they still conceded 46 goals. The problems of the 2005/6 season lay in defence where they conceded 49 goals. He didn't improve this by coaching, he simply brought in Howard, Lescott and Stubbs. The other great recent example of deffensive improvement comes at Pompey. It was suggested on here that this may have come at the hands of Toney Adams coaching, but a look at the mess of the deffence he made at Wycombe, suggests in all likleyhood the solution was a much simpler and far more reasonable one - they bought Sol Campbell and David James. But even this season, in terms of team set up, deffensively neither have been as solid as us. We've given away less chances than either of those teams. So Moyes 451 hasn't helped prevent chances. It's just when those chances have been conceded Everton and Pompey have solid players to deal with them. You yourself have been an outspoken critic of Robbo and Dawson. You could hardly claim Kaboul and Chimbonda have helped matters. So with the same team shape we have employed all season, had we had better defenders, like those at Pompey, we'd be in a totally different postion. I know David James has his critics, but I'm sur he wouldn't have been close to as error prone as Robbo this season. i just can't see Distin making the same erros as Kaboul and likewise Campbell is a hell of a lot more reliable than Dawson or Gardner.

Don't trust BBC possession figure, it is invariably wrong. Sky definately gave us 57% and thre is no way on earth that West Ham out possessed us Sunday. Let alone by 58%.

There is no disagreeing whatsoever with the better defenders principal at all. Better defenders will make less individual errors and poor choices. All I was saying was that good quality coaches will be able to improve defending "as a team". Find ways to protect or improve deficiencies.

And I am pretty sure Moyes did improve Everton defensively compared to the season before he took charge with minimal squad investment.

I couldn't agree more about Pamarot. Said the same many times. Was disapointed he was released as I thought not only was he a decent tough RB, but would make an even better CB.

 

[sloth]

And that to me is the key. I don't think just anyone can be a coach, but I think the difference in ability of coaches is often exaggerated and can more reallistically be accounted for by their ability to buy the right players or have the right players bought for them. I think more than anything the England job proves that. Too many good coaches suddenly become seen as incompetent as a result of English fans and media refusal to the limitations of our players. There are very few examples of a coach coming in (certainly in Engalnd) and dramatically improving things without making some very astute purchases or the previous coach going on to prove he was fairly incompetent.

From one post with which I agreed to another which I don't. Go figure.

I think your example proves the diametric opposite. Coaches who've done well at club level seem to fail at international level. There's probably many reasons for this including players who're over-rated and the number of games in which an international coach is judged being too few and so not a good enough sample. But also i think it's no surprise that an international coach has few chances to coach, he may have a successful way of playing at club level, but with the time he gets at international level he has no opportunity to drill his style. evidence for this can also been seen in the success of sides like Argentina and Portugal where players grow up together in good youth academies and learn how to play with each other making the necessity to coach a system less.

 

[tony0379]

time will tell time will tell

 

[DC_Boy]

I've certainly been impressed with Ramos's adventurous approach. I'm so glad he didn't bring on Lee at RB as I don't rate Lee in that position. by being brave Ramos stirred things up and it worked - maybe luckily maybe not, but it worked.

Another thing I continue to be impressed with as I remarked in another thread before the West Ham game, he seems to understand it's best to play Lennon on the right and Steed on the left. something that Jol did the 'wrong way round' time and again (IMHO - I freely confess I know little about tactics and of course both Jol and Ramos know infinitely more than me - but that 'Steed on the right, Lennon on the left' thing didn't work and drove me nuts, yet for some reason MJ kept doing it.

Once again on Sun JR started them in their correct positions though of course switched Steed central with the change of formation, but that was no problem as we had a natural wide leftie there in Bale.

anyway so far so good with JR for me - now if we can get through to the last 32 of the UEFA and/or last four of the Carling i'll really be singing his praises.

The home defeat v Getafe left us in a terrible position in the UEFA, i'm still not convinced we can rescue it, but we'll know more by Friday - though I still think we'll need 7 points to be sure.

 

[sloth]

The home defeat v Getafe left us in a terrible position in the UEFA, i'm still not convinced we can rescue it, but we'll know more by Friday - though I still think we'll need 7 points to be sure.

It's the top three who go through. We have to finish above Aalborg and Hapoel. I think we can manage that.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

Yeah. I think people made a mountain out of a mole hill after the Getafe defeat. We really would have been in the shit if we didn't get a result vs Hapoel, but we won away :? We'll be fine. I'll put my reputation on it* :up:







* not much, eh?

 

[DC_Boy]

Well Christophe I have to disagree, the Getafe defeat did massive, perhaps irreparable, damage to this season's campaign. It left us probably needing to win two and draw one of the other three games to ensure qualification. Two of those were away, and one of those away games is against the top seeds.

As I've said before I think it's likely we're going to need seven points to qualify and that's a tough ask.

If Hapoel can pick up a point or two it will make our task much easier, but I can see them losing all four games.

 

[hybridsoldier]

ifwe had won, its genius

if not, he's a cretin

we drew so s'alrighttt

 

[rem01]

Well Christophe I have to disagree, the Getafe defeat did massive, perhaps irreparable, damage to this season's campaign. It left us probably needing to win two and draw one of the other three games to ensure qualification. Two of those were away, and one of those away games is against the top seeds.

As I've said before I think it's likely we're going to need seven points to qualify and that's a tough ask.

If Hapoel can pick up a point or two it will make our task much easier, but I can see them losing all four games.

I don't know about all that. If we win against Aalborg, we're almost certainly through. That will give them one point from two games, and us six from three. If we assume that they'll beat Hapoel (which I don't necessarily think is a forgone conclusion), then we'd be through 1) if they dropped points to Getafe, 2) if we won at Anderlecht, or 3) if we drew at Anderlecht and they beat Getafe, and our GD was better. Anyway, point is we're likely to go through if we beat them. But we need to beat them.

 

[walworthyid]

DC if we win on thursday we will have 6 points and Aalborg will have 1, they will have 2 games left to play and we will have 1. They will need to win those 2 games and we will need to lose to Anderlecht for us not to qualify!

I am not sure who there 2 games are against but I am fairly sure that even if they win them both the chances are that the that they beat will then fall out of the top 3.

If we don't beat Aalborg, we don't deserve to qualify.

 

[eViL]

he seems to understand it's best to play Lennon on the right and Steed on the left. something that Jol did the 'wrong way round' time and again (IMHO - I freely confess I know little about tactics and of course both Jol and Ramos know infinitely more than me - but that 'Steed on the left, Lennon on the right' thing didn't work and drove me nuts, yet for some reason MJ kept doing it.

So Ramos doing it makes you happy but BMJ doing the same thing drove you nuts?

Eh? :duh:

 

[Gilzeanking]

Hmmm one of my favourite posters saying something which is complete garbage .

Joey's statement that all coaches are pretty much the same ,it all depends on the players , is frighteningly stupid . It flies in the face of football history so blatantly that I'm going to assume Joey is unwell at the mo .

1 word should be enough to sink this absurd statement for ever...

....Cloughie

 

[stevenqoz]

Joey, game coaching is about what you do when things are not going well. It is very early to judge Ramos but he must get a tick for doing something. Jol and the scribbler rarely had an idea of what to do in such a situation. Against West Ham he faced a series of 'problems'. A centre back who would rarely have played in such a full on derby type match. The same centre back who visably fell apart when erring. An opposition intent on revenge who suddenly found themselves in front. As I said Jol and the scribbler would have had no answer. He decided (quickly, a skill) to fortify the middle with Chimbonda and Zokora, a neat 10 metre passer) and both of these had the ability and speed to recover. Of course he would have played Bale and Chimbonda as the wing backs if given a choice but that was not possible. Lennon did as he was told (all positions are still up for grabs under Ramos).
Forget the possession statistics whatever way they were listed. This was a real English game and you would get a better idea of the game from tackles and contested balls. We were in this game right to the end and both coaches, if honest would not have been unhappy to come out of it with a point.
I don't believe Ramos will start teams with 3 5 2 but it is encouraging that he didn't rule it out when we were behind. Personally I have coached 4 sides in 82 games this season playing only 3 5 2. It is only possible if you have the right wide personell but it does give the definate advantage of an extra central player in midfield.

 

[DC_Boy]

So Ramos doing it makes you happy but BMJ doing the same thing drove you nuts?

Eh? :duh:

Whoops Evil - I got that wrong way round - apologies - mind you did I really deserve that emoticon ? Was it meant in a humourous way? Have now amended original post

 

[Juande_Ramos]

And that to me is the key. I don't think just anyone can be a coach, but I think the difference in ability of coaches is often exaggerated and can more reallistically be accounted for by their ability to buy the right players or have the right players bought for them. I think more than anything the England job proves that. Too many good coaches suddenly become seen as incompetent as a result of English fans and media refusal to the limitations of our players. There are very few examples of a coach coming in (certainly in Engalnd) and dramatically improving things without making some very astute purchases or the previous coach going on to prove he was fairly incompetent.

At the end of the day all coaches take the same FIFA coaching badges and the set up at set pieces etc will vary little, particuarly in England. Sam Allardyce is a coach known for his ability to organise teams at set pieces, but at Newcastle it seems no matter what he tries it won't work. I suspect this will change within the next 12 months as he gets in the right players. Spurs have always been a team that concedes goals, so we brought in a coach known for his defensive work called George Graham. The result was no better than the likes of Gerry Francis (despite a 6 match without conceding). Rafa Benitez's Valencia team was always the best deffesively in Spain, even when they finished 5th! Yet, with a new group of players he can't get them to be as tight aat the back. So yes, I agree coaching has a role to play, but ultimately it pails in significance to a coaches ability to pick, buy or be bought the right players.

I don't think it is Ramos that needs to be given time. He has proven himself to be a competent coach. I think that is all you can ask for. The people who should be under scrutiny are those that provide him with the players. If he fails to take us to the CL next season, I don't think he should be the guy in the firing line (nor did I Jol), unless we have a total disaster of a season.

Sammy Lee and the new Bolton coach whose name scapes me?. I watched Bolton vs Bayern and Man United and it is very unlikely that Sammy would have obtained those results when they were leaking goals left and right against much worse opposition.
I am pretty sure that Juande Ramos, even with the same players Jol had would do a better job, cause he is a better coach IMO. Could Houllier win the CH L with the squad Benitez inherited? Could Rainieri beat the Premiership total number of points with Mourinho squad?.

I agree with you that the most significant factor is the players, no doubt about it, but coaches play an important part too. That's why some are considered better and train the best teams, although there are a few that could be doing a great job at bigger clubs and don't get the chance.

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi to all those who replied to my posts re our UEFA qualification - I honestly can add up All I'm doing is flagging up that beating Aalborg may not guarantee qualification and if we need a point from Anderlecht that can be a very difficult task. Therefore, at the moment, i'm not anywhere as confident as some people about our qualification.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

Well Christophe I have to disagree, the Getafe defeat did massive, perhaps irreparable, damage to this season's campaign. It left us probably needing to win two and draw one of the other three games to ensure qualification.

As I've said before I think it's likely we're going to need seven points to qualify and that's a tough ask.

Out of last season's UEFA Cup group stages, 3 teams qualified in 3rd place with 4 points, 3 teams qualified in 3rd place with 5 points, and 2 teams qualified in 3rd place with 6 points. More often than not, you'll qualify with 4 or 5 points. The most anyone needed was 6 points. I think if you start talking about 7 points, you're looking at either 2nd or even sneaking top spot (as Panathinaikos did last year).

As I've said before, we'll get through no worries :up:

 

[BigRed]

I'd rather finish 3rd in the UEFA group than 2nd.

 

[DC_Boy]

Out of last season's UEFA Cup group stages, 3 teams qualified in 3rd place with 4 points, 3 teams qualified in 3rd place with 5 points, and 2 teams qualified in 3rd place with 6 points. More often than not, you'll qualify with 4 or 5 points. The most anyone needed was 6 points. I think if you start talking about 7 points, you're looking at either 2nd or even sneaking top spot (as Panathinaikos did last year).

As I've said before, we'll get through no worries :up:

Fair enough Christophe - I'll come out of Scrooge mode and go completely Pollyanna optimistic Ooops no, can't break the habit of a lifetime ;-)

Anyway I'm glad there's mass optimism about our qualification - cos I so want us to be in that last 32 again