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Kaboul

Beni

Well-Known Member
Mar 3, 2004
5,431
6,131
To be honest, your asking a young player (21, in terms of when players peak), come into a fast league, and adapt and cope from the start.
He hasn't had the chance to be gently introduced and adapt, and has come into a defence on the downside, and very inexperienced aswell.

I like Kaboul, he is very strong, good in the air, good on the ball and always plays with confidence.
All good attributes for a good defender.

His downfall this season so far has been, that confidence has got him into trouble on more than 1 occassion.
He does tend to dwell too much on the ball, and has paid the price.
The more experience he gets though, the more he will learn that the time he is used to get in France say, is not the time he is going to get in England.

I do believe he has been drafted into the 1st team too early, and not had the chance to gently adapt and get upto speed to a new league.
This has because he has had to play due to all the injuries we have got.

It is still too early to write him off just yet, but what I have seen of him has impressed me, and with his age, I can see that he can improve on a lot of aspects in his game.
 

Robbiepope

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2006
697
776
Big money=even bigger expectation. Jol himself said that we decided to go for Kaboul rather than Distin or Chivu (and it's wildly unlikely that Chivu would have come to us anyway) because he would develop into a better player than either. It's not his fault that he cost £8m, any more than it was Richards', and it's not his fault that he's been chucked in at the deep end because Gardner, Rocha and Ledders have all been crocked. It's not his fault that Dawson, for whom the 'inexperience' excuse is fast running out, has been giving regular and convincing impersonations of a stunned goldfish instead of taking the role of senior partner.

Really, he should have been getting acclimatised in the ressies and getting a few sub appearances, because the pace of the Premier League is a world away from Ligue 1, and the overall quality a good deal higher.

I agree, of course it's not Kaboul's fault we paid 8 million. My disappointment is more aimed at the club. At the start of the season everyone knew that we needed a good quality centre-back, not in 1 or 2 seasons, we needed one now. Therefore if Kaboul was a 8 milllion signing for the future why didn't we sign a quality centre back in the summer to take the pressure off Kaboul and blend him in slowly?! Are we saying that we were going to rely on Gardner and Rocha to play alongside Dawson to get us to 4th position, which was our aim?

I hope Kaboul turns out to be excellent player for us, but at the same time I hope to god we buy a good centre back in January.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
It is quite obvious Kaboul needs time to settle to the pace of English football and it would be premature to write him off.

He reminds me a bit of when Agga broke into the Liverpool side it took him a while to adjust to the pace being a cultured type defender. If memory serves me correctly, L King also took a bit of time to stamp his mark as a centre back being cultured and relaxed in his play.

I have no worries Kaboul will turn out to be a fine defender for Spurs and when full adjusted we will start to see his variation ie.. pace, power, aerial abilities, positional play and scoring threat. I also believe Assou-Ekotto will turn out to be excellent as well with Bale replacing Malbranque on the Left wing.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
I agree, of course it's not Kaboul's fault we paid 8 million. My disappointment is more aimed at the club. At the start of the season everyone knew that we needed a good quality centre-back, not in 1 or 2 seasons, we needed one now. Therefore if Kaboul was a 8 milllion signing for the future why didn't we sign a quality centre back in the summer to take the pressure off Kaboul and blend him in slowly?! Are we saying that we were going to rely on Gardner and Rocha to play alongside Dawson to get us to 4th position, which was our aim?

I hope Kaboul turns out to be excellent player for us, but at the same time I hope to god we buy a good centre back in January.

My suspicion—and it's only a suspicion—is that we were expecting King to be back far sooner, and that signing Distin, say, would have given us major selection headaches once King was fit, in addition to adding substantially to the payroll.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
5,857
2,877
So far he's spent £25 million+ on the players I've mentioned and none of them seem mentally good enough to play at the level we need. You can't doubt their physical attributes, but do you really need to employ a Director of Football to spot these. Even Spursking can spot a fast, strong, technically sound player, but the real skill is in identifying the less tangible assests a player has to offer and that is what a highly paid proffessional should be able to do. It wouldn't be so bad if they were youngsters we were paying a couple of million for, but we are often paying top whack.

I agree that the missing factor in our recent, almost certainly Comolli-inspired, signings has been their mental attributes. However, in terms of their physical and technical attributes, which are very good, they're actually quite close to many of the Goon's French signings. And nearly all of the Arse's French signings have taken considerable time to adapt to the EPL: eg Anelka, Henry, Pires, Wiltord (arguably never completely adapted because he wasn't good enough), Clichy, Flamini, Adebayor. The likes of Diaby, Diarra, Traore are still very much works-in-progress. Off the top of my head, only Viera and Petit were largely instant hits.

And players like Pires were huge gambles: I remember Pires saying he sat on the bench watching his first Goon EPL game, with players flying into tackles, no time on the ball, and thinking he wanted to go home (poor little diddums). What's unarguable is that the likes of Zokora, Kaboul, BAE, Taarabt are still near the bottom of the EPL learning curve. They all have the physical and technical attributes to adapt, but it will probably take at least another season before we learn if they can. And Ramos needs players who can deliver now.
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,091
I agree that the missing factor in our recent, almost certainly Comolli-inspired, signings has been their mental attributes. However, in terms of their physical and technical attributes, which are very good, they're actually quite close to many of the Goon's French signings. And nearly all of the Arse's French signings have taken considerable time to adapt to the EPL: eg Anelka, Henry, Pires, Wiltord (arguably never completely adapted because he wasn't good enough), Clichy, Flamini, Adebayor. The likes of Diaby, Diarra, Traore are still very much works-in-progress. Off the top of my head, only Viera and Petit were largely instant hits.

And players like Pires were huge gambles: I remember Pires saying he sat on the bench watching his first Goon EPL game, with players flying into tackles, no time on the ball, and thinking he wanted to go home (poor little diddums). What's unarguable is that the likes of Zokora, Kaboul, BAE, Taarabt are still near the bottom of the EPL learning curve. They all have the physical and technical attributes to adapt, but it will probably take at least another season before we learn if they can. And Ramos needs players who can deliver now.

We've needed that since the summer of 2006. We were on the edge of joining the elite and made the wrong transfer decsions. I've always has a bit of a soft spot for Comolli, but in recent weeks (since Ramos came) i've been really finding out as much about Monchi as I possibly can and have decided the guy is a genius and that people like him are the reason the Director of Football role works. This has made me have less sympathy towards Comolli, who i think has been hampered by Levy. Del Nido and Monchi really are a superb double act, whilst Levy/Comolli aren't. I think the key differences are Levy runs a Plc and Del Nido works for a co operative. This naturally effects theri aims and how their Directors of Football can work.

Also with the Arseanl players, they are very much brought in as kids for low fees. It is far more acceptable for them to not be Prem ready. Paying £1 million for a 17 year old Anelka, is fine. Henry did score 18 goals in his first 31 games and Pires took less the a season to adapt and was always good. I wouldn't say the likes of Flamini didn't so much take a while to adapt as have two of the best CMs in the league in front of him. I think Diabby, Diarra and Flamini together cost less than Kaboul.
 

nidge

Sand gets everywhere!!!!!
Staff
Jul 27, 2004
24,858
11,358
It is quite obvious Kaboul needs time to settle to the pace of English football and it would be premature to write him off.

He reminds me a bit of when Agga broke into the Liverpool side it took him a while to adjust to the pace being a cultured type defender. If memory serves me correctly, L King also took a bit of time to stamp his mark as a centre back being cultured and relaxed in his play.

I have no worries Kaboul will turn out to be a fine defender for Spurs and when full adjusted we will start to see his variation ie.. pace, power, aerial abilities, positional play and scoring threat. I also believe Assou-Ekotto will turn out to be excellent as well with Bale replacing Malbranque on the Left wing.

And what is the first team meant to do while waiting for all this potential to turn into results on the pitch because at this rate our better players that are in the first team won't want to hang around and wait another couple of years for the youngsters to mature.
 

Robbiepope

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2006
697
776
And what is the first team meant to do while waiting for all this potential to turn into results on the pitch because at this rate our better players that are in the first team won't want to hang around and wait another couple of years for the youngsters to mature.

Great point. I wonder if there will be any quality centre-backs available in January? I would sell either Gardner or Rocha if the right player was out there.
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,091
And what is the first team meant to do while waiting for all this potential to turn into results on the pitch because at this rate our better players that are in the first team won't want to hang around and wait another couple of years for the youngsters to mature.

This is what i've been saying for a while. If you look at all the other sides that have been succesful bringing though young players, they've done it on the foundations of an already successful side. They have succes then develop youth, whilst we seem to think we can develop youth and then have success. That only works in computer games. I'd rather miss out on the best young players now and get Prem ready players. Once we have success we can start ivesting in the best young players. Fergusons success was built around the likes of Pallister, Hughes, Bruce, Cantona, Schmeical etc. It was later he brought through the youngsters. It's the same at Arsenal. Only Viera was young in their initial successful side. In the later years he brought through all the young talent.
 

PYiddy

Active Member
Jun 10, 2005
1,037
3
:clap:

He hasn't exactly been in the fold for very long.

He's scored 3 goals, he's averaging the same sort of rating as Dawson, I think people are being a little harsh on him.

Sure he's young, maybe a bit cocky on the ball too but he'll learn.




If not Ramos will beat it out of him :grin:


goals paper over cracks.

Vega used to score a few.

nuff said.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,894
45,042
Just a point about the French league as I brought the subject up, I stand by my statement that it is lower Championship standard at best.
Drogba cost £23m (I believe) and for his first season he struggled, Essien likewise, ok I admit to a lesser degree but then he is a bit special isn't he (I know he playes for chelsea but it's true).
I fail to think of one player coming from the French league who has done the business straight away, let alone a youngster, other than Chimbonda of course.
 

nidge

Sand gets everywhere!!!!!
Staff
Jul 27, 2004
24,858
11,358
Yeah, Shearer scored a shitload of goals but that's all he did, so he was rubbish.

But shearer is a striker, his primary objective is to score goals which he was bloodly good at. Kaboul primary objective is to stop the other team from scoring, something that he needs to learn because at the moment he can't do it, his goals would be icing on the cake if only he could do his primary job to a high enough standard. In the future I am hopeful he will come good but, that doesn't help us for the rest of this season.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,894
45,042
We've needed that since the summer of 2006. We were on the edge of joining the elite and made the wrong transfer decsions. I've always has a bit of a soft spot for Comolli, but in recent weeks (since Ramos came) i've been really finding out as much about Monchi as I possibly can and have decided the guy is a genius and that people like him are the reason the Director of Football role works. This has made me have less sympathy towards Comolli, who i think has been hampered by Levy. Del Nido and Monchi really are a superb double act, whilst Levy/Comolli aren't. I think the key differences are Levy runs a Plc and Del Nido works for a co operative. This naturally effects theri aims and how their Directors of Football can work.

Also with the Arseanl players, they are very much brought in as kids for low fees. It is far more acceptable for them to not be Prem ready. Paying £1 million for a 17 year old Anelka, is fine. Henry did score 18 goals in his first 31 games and Pires took less the a season to adapt and was always good. I wouldn't say the likes of Flamini didn't so much take a while to adapt as have two of the best CMs in the league in front of him. I think Diabby, Diarra and Flamini together cost less than Kaboul.

Joey, I take your point and I'm honestly not being picky but in all honesty do you believe that a 17 year old Anelka would go for £1m now? I thought they paid a fair amount for Henry as he was already "discovered" and came from the Italian league to the prem and to be honest I don't particularly rate Diarra or Diaby even in their second season and Flamini will never impress.
 

PYiddy

Active Member
Jun 10, 2005
1,037
3
Yeah, Shearer scored a shitload of goals but that's all he did, so he was rubbish.


he was a striker. he is expected to score goals

a defender is not expected to score goals.

i thought that was obvious.
 

PYiddy

Active Member
Jun 10, 2005
1,037
3
But shearer is a striker, his primary objective is to score goals which he was bloodly good at. Kaboul primary objective is to stop the other team from scoring, something that he needs to learn because at the moment he can't do it, his goals would be icing on the cake if only he could do his primary job to a high enough standard. In the future I am hopeful he will come good but, that doesn't help us for the rest of this season.



what he said:hump:
 

LadieK

Yiddess
Staff
Sep 25, 2004
24,185
45
goals paper over cracks.

Vega used to score a few.

nuff said.


So his goals don't matter?

I didn't say that he was a good defender because he scored goals, I was just highlighting one positive - yet it's the only thing you picked up on!

Kaboul has many positive attributes. He clearly has negatives as well, as I already said he has a cockyness about him (that has to go quickly) and he makes to many mistakes - that much is obvious.

However, he has a lot of potential and people are beinga bit to harsh on him if they're going to just dismiss the good and highlight the bad!
 

joey55

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2005
9,675
3,091
Joey, I take your point and I'm honestly not being picky but in all honesty do you believe that a 17 year old Anelka would go for £1m now? I thought they paid a fair amount for Henry as he was already "discovered" and came from the Italian league to the prem and to be honest I don't particularly rate Diarra or Diaby even in their second season and Flamini will never impress.

To be honest i don't know much about Anelka's time at youth level and waht he was like at PSG, other than he made a handful of sub appearances, so i don't know who to compare him with now. But the point I was making is that it doesn't really matter if the players you don't like (Diarra, Diaby or Famini) don't make the grade, as they cost less than the price of Zokora or Kaboul between them and they already have a WC winning player in their postion. They can afford to buy player and wait for them to develop (if they do), whilst we can't. Whilst we are waiting for players to develop the like of Berbs end up getting poached by CL clubs and we are back to where we started.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
5,857
2,877
Also with the Arseanl players, they are very much brought in as kids for low fees. It is far more acceptable for them to not be Prem ready. Paying £1 million for a 17 year old Anelka, is fine. Henry did score 18 goals in his first 31 games and Pires took less the a season to adapt and was always good. I wouldn't say the likes of Flamini didn't so much take a while to adapt as have two of the best CMs in the league in front of him. I think Diabby, Diarra and Flamini together cost less than Kaboul.

Fair points. Didn't Wenger say something about other clubs fishing in his primary markets now and inflating prices?

With the likes of Anelka, Clichy, Fabregas, the Goons were able to exploit other national federation's rules about young players, and offer them a much bigger salary than they could get in their domestic leagues whilst paying minimal compensation. Houllier tried the same trick at Liverpool with Sinama-Pongolle and Le Tallec (child theft from European club academies) but couldn't coach them into Premiership players. Comolli poached Yuri Berchiche from Bilbao's academy for next to nothing, but we've had to pay top dollar in fees & clauses for other young talent: notably Taarabt, Parrett, and (pre-Comolli) Leigh Mills. Just as we paid top dollar for Kaboul & Zokora, so you're correct that does up the ante in terms of wanting them to be nearer the finished article.

That said, there were two outstanding kids at Southampton being watched by scouts from around Europe. The Arse got Walcott, and Wenger told Sven he was ready for World Cup football, and a season and a half later, he's still not ready for the EPL. (Seeing young Theo have that hissy fit for the U21s when Pearce told him he couldn't take the penalty reminded me that he really should still be at school.) We got Gareth Bale, and he's already shown that he can play in the EPL on a regular basis.

What does that prove? That the Arse don't have an infallible method for fast-tracking young players into EPL greats...
 
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