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Ledley is back!!

tRiKS

Ledley's No.1 fan
Jun 6, 2005
6,854
142
YES THEY DO! Van Persie has just come though a reserve game in the last few days as well, and i would rather King gets another 45/75 mins in the reservs than a 20 min cameo at the weekend.

King has already said he needs to work on his fitness and playing 75mins in the reservs will be better for him than only playing 20.

and i disagree the 20mins in a PL games is less on fitness than even a 90min stroll in the reserves. It's not about anerobic fitness it's match sharpness. Hids lung capacity and muscle desnity etc would have been optimum before the ridiculous 45mins last week.

on a worse pitches, controlled by a weaker standard of ref agasint hot headed youngsters is a stupid risk. With the odd possible exception, TOP bastards don't do this.. they really don't with world class players!! Henry, Ronaldhino, Rooney, Gerard etc etc don't play reserve games. they get incremented minutes off the bench in first team games when they are coming back from injury.
 

DC_Boy

New Member
May 20, 2005
17,608
5
1 week and 1 day not 2 weeks

well Glenn we'll see - I hope he's playing first team football in 8 days time - but I ain't counting on it - in fact even a fortnight is probably optimistic

nowhere have i seen poyet Ramos etc saying he'll be back for the Arsenal - it's just more journo speculation
 

justfookinhitit

Jedi Master
Aug 4, 2006
1,206
0
This shows that those who suggested he would be back for the Man Shitty game last week really had their heads in cloud cuckoo land.

There's no point bringing him back until he is 100% ready in terms of match fitness. If he comes back any sooner there is a huge risk he will break down again which would be nuts for the sake of a week or two.
 

PantherX

Active Member
Feb 2, 2004
557
39
This shows that those who suggested he would be back for the Man Shitty game last week really had their heads in cloud cuckoo land.

There's no point bringing him back until he is 100% ready in terms of match fitness. If he comes back any sooner there is a huge risk he will break down again which would be nuts for the sake of a week or two.

He would have played if he wasn't injured.
 

Flatters

Racist Troll
May 4, 2005
27,001
50
:lol:

zoltanhalsparks.gif

*Zoltan!*
 

spurs4europe

misses the snow!
Oct 11, 2004
1,105
201
and i disagree the 20mins in a PL games is less on fitness than even a 90min stroll in the reserves. It's not about anerobic fitness it's match sharpness. Hids lung capacity and muscle desnity etc would have been optimum before the ridiculous 45mins last week.

on a worse pitches, controlled by a weaker standard of ref agasint hot headed youngsters is a stupid risk. With the odd possible exception, TOP bastards don't do this.. they really don't with world class players!! Henry, Ronaldhino, Rooney, Gerard etc etc don't play reserve games. they get incremented minutes off the bench in first team games when they are coming back from injury.


okay, so when was the last time henry, ronaldinho, rooney, gerrard were out for, what, say almost a year?
 

tRiKS

Ledley's No.1 fan
Jun 6, 2005
6,854
142
okay, so when was the last time henry, ronaldinho, rooney, gerrard were out for, what, say almost a year?

Rooney was out for 4 months before he played his first game for utd... first game was in the XI in the CL he scored a hatrick.

Although i was using the names as examples to illustrate the level of player that wouldn't and imo shouldn't be used in a reserve team. Ronaldo (tubby brazilian) didn't play a single reserve game during his time out at inter or Madrid. Gazza didn't after his broken leg for Lazio either... more recently Eto, Henry etc etc

Italy or Spain don't even have Reverve teams.. so what do you imagine happens there? What must they do and how come thier world class players come back world class without such fixtures?? ... perhaps you think it's vodoo?

I'm not sure about France or Germany... would be supirsed to find out neither had a reserve league either. Perhaps someone can set me straight on that.

I predict you'll come back on the first point and say 4 months out isn't the same as a year!

a) kings been out for just about 6 months to date
and
b)please explain how a year out is worst than 4 months...
I assume you were implying a year is somehow more detrimental?
 

southlondonyiddo

My eyes have seen some of the glory..
Nov 8, 2004
12,599
15,012
If Ledley is basically fit but just needs games to get match fit thI cant see the point of playing him in the reserves. Get him on the bench and give him 20-30 mins in the first team.
He's had 45 in the reserves and come through it, why play him again in the reserves!
 

spurs4europe

misses the snow!
Oct 11, 2004
1,105
201
Rooney was out for 4 months before he played his first game for utd... first game was in the XI in the CL he scored a hatrick.

Although i was using the names as examples to illustrate the level of player that wouldn't and imo shouldn't be used in a reserve team. Ronaldo (tubby brazilian) didn't play a single reserve game during his time out at inter or Madrid. Gazza didn't after his broken leg for Lazio either... more recently Eto, Henry etc etc

Italy or Spain don't even have Reverve teams.. so what do you imagine happens there? What must they do and how come thier world class players come back world class without such fixtures?? ... perhaps you think it's vodoo?

I'm not sure about France or Germany... would be supirsed to find out neither had a reserve league either. Perhaps someone can set me straight on that.

I predict you'll come back on the first point and say 4 months out isn't the same as a year!

a) kings been out for just about 6 months to date
and
b)please explain how a year out is worst than 4 months...
I assume you were implying a year is somehow more detrimental?

well i said a year because as far as i can remember, his last game for us was more or less against sevilla, and even if it was after that he's been so stop start with 2 months here, and another 2-3 there that it's almost a year.
of course i'm implying that being out for a year is more detrimental than 4 months, it's an extra 8 months of getting out of shape, whilst one's muscles also suffer from not being used, not to mention your ability to read a game.

i don't know about what goes on in italy or spain in great depth so i can't really comment on that, are you?

what i do know is though is that LK has not undergone a pre-season, and we don't know exactly how long he has been in full training., or how close he is to full fitness so all of this is conjecture.

i also know that he could (potentially) be injury-prone, and so we want to be 100% before we know he's ready.
in the EPL, you can only have 4 outfield subs, why risk him in a game when you could compromise your tactics and ability to respond to a game by having to withdraw him prematurely and using up most probably your only defensive cover?
this is especially true now when every game is critical for us as we try and salvage this season.

tell me i'm wrong.
 

DC_Boy

New Member
May 20, 2005
17,608
5
bump!!

as I said earlier

'so in fact King is not back - he might be back in a fortnight or so - depending

Like every Spurs fan I want King back - but let's not get ahead of ourselves'

:Originally Posted by Glenn_Purvey
1 week and 1 day not 2 weeks
well Glenn we'll see - I hope he's playing first team football in 8 days time - but I ain't counting on it - in fact even a fortnight is probably optimistic

nowhere have i seen poyet Ramos etc saying he'll be back for the Arsenal - it's just more journo speculation
 

InOffMeLeftShin

Night watchman
Admin
Jan 14, 2004
15,104
9,113
Rooney was out for 4 months before he played his first game for utd... first game was in the XI in the CL he scored a hatrick.

Although i was using the names as examples to illustrate the level of player that wouldn't and imo shouldn't be used in a reserve team. Ronaldo (tubby brazilian) didn't play a single reserve game during his time out at inter or Madrid. Gazza didn't after his broken leg for Lazio either... more recently Eto, Henry etc etc

Italy or Spain don't even have Reverve teams.. so what do you imagine happens there? What must they do and how come thier world class players come back world class without such fixtures?? ... perhaps you think it's vodoo?

I'm not sure about France or Germany... would be supirsed to find out neither had a reserve league either. Perhaps someone can set me straight on that.

I predict you'll come back on the first point and say 4 months out isn't the same as a year!

a) kings been out for just about 6 months to date
and
b)please explain how a year out is worst than 4 months...
I assume you were implying a year is somehow more detrimental?

I think it's probably a case of different players and different injuries needing different approaches. It's far easier for a striker to come in without having played any matches as its far more an impact role. They only really need one moment to make an impact on the game.

For a defender is slightly different as it is as much about mental sharpness and focus as well as they can't really relax on the physical side for an entire game. I think it is far more common for defenders who have had serious injuries to play a few reserve team fixtures.

Also it would depend on the type of injury. If it is an injury that has effected the player from keeping up any kind of physical training for a long period of time then it is usually a pretty good idea to get some lower paced games in first as going straight into a high paced game would tend to leave players more at risk of picking up another injury due to not being in top physical shape. No matter how much gym work or running you do, it is very difficult to simulate the twisting and turning, the changes in pace etc. of a game.

Oh and of course Italy and Spain have reserve games. I saw Treviso reserves not so long ago and in Spain not only do they have B teams, many of the bigger clubs also have C teams. In fact Spanish B teams compete in the lower leagues of the league structure so I am not quite sure how you managed to come up with that statement.
 

tRiKS

Ledley's No.1 fan
Jun 6, 2005
6,854
142
I think it's probably a case of different players and different injuries needing different approaches. It's far easier for a striker to come in without having played any matches as its far more an impact role. They only really need one moment to make an impact on the game.

For a defender is slightly different as it is as much about mental sharpness and focus as well as they can't really relax on the physical side for an entire game. I think it is far more common for defenders who have had serious injuries to play a few reserve team fixtures.

Also it would depend on the type of injury. If it is an injury that has effected the player from keeping up any kind of physical training for a long period of time then it is usually a pretty good idea to get some lower paced games in first as going straight into a high paced game would tend to leave players more at risk of picking up another injury due to not being in top physical shape. No matter how much gym work or running you do, it is very difficult to simulate the twisting and turning, the changes in pace etc. of a game.

Oh and of course Italy and Spain have reserve games. I saw Treviso reserves not so long ago and in Spain not only do they have B teams, many of the bigger clubs also have C teams. In fact Spanish B teams compete in the lower leagues of the league structure so I am not quite sure how you managed to come up with that statement.

Disagree. CB's of all postions on the pitch cover the least ground over 90mins and sprint least often too. There is no ideal position to come into lacking match sharpness but CB is less strenous on the body.

100 reserve team games wouldn't get you PL match fit that you'll have to accept i'm afraid but argue agaisnt me if you are not brave enough to back down on a public forum it make no odds to me, it's your reputation your damaging not mine. And if there is a chance of a player breaking down they shouldn't even be in full training let alone in a reserve game. I'm very glad you are not in charge of THFC.

the B and C teams adhere to the transfer window. you can't play for Barca B for example willy nilly. you have to be transeferd. They use it as a breading ground for younger players but in neither country will you find first team players playing for them at any stage after an injury. How on earth then did Ronaldo regain fitness at Madrid to win the balon dor for a 3rd time?... the mind boggles.

I don't blame you for not knowing but i do question why you felt you could comment on it knowing you didn't know?
 

Stoof

THERE IS A PIGEON IN MY BANK ACCOUNT
Staff
Jun 5, 2004
32,219
64,273
100 reserve team games wouldn't get you PL match fit that you'll have to accept i'm afraid but argue agaisnt me if you are not brave enough to back down on a public forum it make no odds to me, it's your reputation your damaging not mine. And if there is a chance of a player breaking down they shouldn't even be in full training let alone in a reserve game. I'm very glad you are not in charge of THFC.

Are you not quite clearly missing the point of the Reserve games? Of course they're not as frenetic as PL matches, that's the point. They bridge the much needed gap between training and first team football. Something that a player who has been so nursed, recently, needs more than anything.

It's basic biology isn't it? You don't go to the gym for 2 months. Then you go back and do the same session you did before (when you were going). The next day (and even during) you're destroyed.

He needs to be gently brought back - and I don't see him complaining about it, nor Rocha. In fact, I think they are probably quite glad to at least play some competitive football that isn't as strenuous.

Think about how they feel and react. Not just the impression it gives out of the club.
 

tRiKS

Ledley's No.1 fan
Jun 6, 2005
6,854
142
well i said a year because as far as i can remember, his last game for us was more or less against sevilla, and even if it was after that he's been so stop start with 2 months here, and another 2-3 there that it's almost a year.
of course i'm implying that being out for a year is more detrimental than 4 months, it's an extra 8 months of getting out of shape, whilst one's muscles also suffer from not being used, not to mention your ability to read a game.

i don't know about what goes on in italy or spain in great depth so i can't really comment on that, are you?

what i do know is though is that LK has not undergone a pre-season, and we don't know exactly how long he has been in full training., or how close he is to full fitness so all of this is conjecture.

i also know that he could (potentially) be injury-prone, and so we want to be 100% before we know he's ready.
in the EPL, you can only have 4 outfield subs, why risk him in a game when you could compromise your tactics and ability to respond to a game by having to withdraw him prematurely and using up most probably your only defensive cover?
this is especially true now when every game is critical for us as we try and salvage this season.

tell me i'm wrong.

you are wrong. I will expand on why.

he played till the final game of the season and both Englan d international games after the season a total i think of 16 games in a row?! He was back and got injured in the final International game. 6 months.. 5 longer than those who had pre-season. marginally more time than rooney was out after his foot injury after the 2004 euros to which his first game back (of any type) was a CL game with the first XI ...hattrick.

there is a point of not playing where you level off. 4, 6 or even 12 months would reletively be of the same detriment from a muscle wastage perspective, especially consisdering the nature of the injury would allow him to do weight work quickly. (it's not like he's lost his legs)

The worl on the upper body etc + diet other controlled low impact excercise and swimming would allow him to retain as much areobic and anerobic fitness as someone who was out for 2 months. Propriorception can be worked up without even ball work and depth pereception would remain a constant. His match fittness and by that i mean his ability to pay at PL/FIRST team XI ,will need work to be prefect of course but he would never ever reach top level by playing reserve team games so why risk playing your best players in them ever? What a total shambles it would be if he got injured playing a reserve game.

To help you appreaciate my piont a bit more. Take o'hara for example if he came into the first team you would not expect him to be at the the same level as the rest of the first team... in fact no doubt if he had a few bad games he would be "given time" becasue he was new and recent to first XI football. Why? becasue reserve team football even if you play 20 games in a row doesn't make you PL/1st XI match sharp. O'Hara is actually a good example in another way too, he's one of the better youth team players and it was seen as a STEP UP for him to go out on loan to league one. A step up from Reserves becase it was competive, faster and better.

Reseve team football makes no differnce on fitness and is of little value preparing players for first team action. Any benefits are minmal and worth risking on your prospect or on fringe players, sometimes even forst team players BUT NEVER on your world class players. FUCK me not even Mido got reserve team football... or defoe.

20mins in a full blooded PL/cup game would do more for match fitness than 90mins against Liverpool youth.

On Ledley specifically... i'd rather him get injured in a TOP flight game than a reserve one. On the WHL pitch in front of 34k yids sing "We've got ledley" not @ Leighton orient on a Tuesday. What a waste that would be and what a small time club we'd look. The world would over look the incident and the twats down the road would laugh.
World class players desreve better. Ledely King deserves better.
 

tRiKS

Ledley's No.1 fan
Jun 6, 2005
6,854
142
Are you not quite clearly missing the point of the Reserve games? Of course they're not as frenetic as PL matches, that's the point. They bridge the much needed gap between training and first team football. Something that a player who has been so nursed, recently, needs more than anything.

It's basic biology isn't it? You don't go to the gym for 2 months. Then you go back and do the same session you did before (when you were going). The next day (and even during) you're destroyed.

He needs to be gently brought back - and I don't see him complaining about it, nor Rocha. In fact, I think they are probably quite glad to at least play some competitive football that isn't as strenuous.

Think about how they feel and react. Not just the impression it gives out of the club.

I'm not though stoof. I'm thinking about it from all angles. If they were not over the injury they wouldn't be playing any form of football so it's not test an injury, that arguemnt goes out the window.

match fitness? You weigh up the slight bridge (but you admit not total preperation for first team) with a player getting injured in a non-competive game. With some players that gamble is worth it but i've been very careful to mention World class players. SAF would never risk his WC players in reserve games and with Rooney he did not... then if you look into it and pick out the rest of Euorpe WC players who've had medium to long lay off you realise thay there is a pattern massively swaying towards my point.

I don't want Ledley king playing in a reserve team game. I want him if need be to be phased into the first team. I'm not sorry for having that view and i do think based on what the other big clubs do with their big players that it's small time to run such a risk. Rocha is of less value and i would consider it less of a risk to get him fit in that way.

As it happens Ledley didn't play :)

How they feel? hummm I expect actually the cpt of the club feels that even with one leg he'd be needed in the first team immediately... and that if asked the question reserve team game or first team he'd choose first team. But we're only guessing stoof so perhaps we should pass over any retorts on that particular perspective of the argument.

thank you for your time
 

chrissivad

Staff
May 20, 2005
51,646
58,072
From Dragon on coys


leds was due to play tonight against liverpool but as poster correctly said got a slight knock end of last week, nothing major , as ive always maintained he will be back and isnt far off now

someone else (cant rember the name)HH? said he wasn't meant to be back untill Jan anyway.
 
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