Let's All Laugh At... Let's all wonder what's going on at United?

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
35,997
#41
I'm not attempted to play down Charlton achievements but to suggest they are substantially harder than Rooneys is romanticising. I'm not talking about the World Cup. That's a separate achievement and something Rooney will never do.

Not sure how playing more international is relevant considering they played the same amount of games.
Because charlton did it over a longer time.
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
26,595
#44
Apparently the three add on fee clauses for Martial are:
€10m for making 25 appearances for Man Utd
€10m for getting his 10th cap for France(currently on 0)
€10m for getting to the top 20 players in the world list

He should get the first two clauses making him about £51m which is a hell a lot of money for a guy who could easily turn to be dog shit
 

Col_M

Pointing out the Obvious
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
10,545
#45
Can't understand the arguement around Rooney. If we'd signed him on deadline day we'd wet ourselves with excitement.
 

Col_M

Pointing out the Obvious
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
10,545
#46
Apparently the three add on fee clauses for Martial are:
€10m for making 25 appearances for Man Utd
€10m for getting his 10th cap for France(currently on 0)
€10m for getting to the top 20 players in the world list

He should get the first two clauses making him about £51m which is a hell a lot of money for a guy who could easily turn to be dog shit

Thanks for explaining. I couldn't understand were these different numbers were coming from.

I agree with your assessment although if he were to make the final clause then surely that justifies the huge investment. United could sell at a profit but they would also I'll the merchandise potential significantly.
 

Geyzer Soze

Fearlessly the idiot faced the crowd
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
20,886
#47
Apparently the three add on fee clauses for Martial are:
€10m for making 25 appearances for Man Utd
€10m for getting his 10th cap for France(currently on 0)
€10m for getting to the top 20 players in the world list

He should get the first two clauses making him about £51m which is a hell a lot of money for a guy who could easily turn to be dog shit
He won't turn out to be dog shit, I'll hang my hat on that

He'll get the 3rd one too & I don't think he'll be too long about it
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
24,452
#48
I honestly think that Rooney is the most over rated player ever in English Football. People hang on to his goal scoring record, yet I feel that we are comparing Apples (Rooney) with Oranges (Others). The golf between Man U & England and the opposition they have faced has been far greater than when Charlton (Utd & England), Lineker, Greaves etc played.

Secondly, and for me the greatest evidence for the Emporors New Clothes charade surrounding Rooney is that apart from United no one else has come in for him. Even when he was throwing his toys out, there was no interest from Real Madrid, Barcelona, PSG, Bayern, Chelsea, no one. The only person that has any confidence in his ability seems to be him, and his sponsors (riding on the advertising coat tales that they have created themselves).

I honestly believe that anyone of reasonable ability that had been given the runs in Teams that Rooney has had would have surpassed his records.

Rooney may become England's biggest Goal Scorer, but he will never become England's Greatest Goal Scorer.
He was very close to a Chelsea move a couple of seasons ago.
 

Shadydan

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Jul 7, 2012
Messages
24,452
#49
At the end of the season utd will be in the top 3. They have a good chance of winning it. A season is not 4 games long and they have added quite a few players.
This Utd side will not win the title, not under LVG anyway.
 

Oshi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
2,747
#50
Apparently the three add on fee clauses for Martial are:
€10m for making 25 appearances for Man Utd
€10m for getting his 10th cap for France(currently on 0)
€10m for getting to the top 20 players in the world list

He should get the first two clauses making him about £51m which is a hell a lot of money for a guy who could easily turn to be dog shit
I saw reports it's..

£7.2m for 25 goals within 4 years
£7.2m for 25 France caps within 4 years
£7.2m for winning the ballon d'or within 4 years

Seems there are a lot of versions of these addons :D
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
26,595
#52
I saw reports it's..

£7.2m for 25 goals within 4 years
£7.2m for 25 France caps within 4 years
£7.2m for winning the ballon d'or within 4 years

Seems there are a lot of versions of these addons :D
These came from Auclair who says he has a trusty source
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
26,595
#53
Can't understand the arguement around Rooney. If we'd signed him on deadline day we'd wet ourselves with excitement.
I think if we signed berbatov on the final day we all been over the moon, shit I would have been for pato at least he plays as a striker now

As for Rooney that isn't a great argument imo, as the question is, Is he one of the true greats?

IMO no, we don't class Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Zidane and etc in the same bracket as the UBER-LEGENDS however they are a still imo a level or two above Rooney

Ten years ago I think we all thought he would go on to become of the best strikers in the world(2009/10) and I think bar one season he hasn't been able to get in that bracket of calling himself one of the best striker(not the best)
 

Gbspurs

Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
21,787
#56
Not sure I read that right, ZZ and Ronaldo not UberLegends? Serous?
This is what I meant earlier about romanticising the past. People tend to hold the achievements of people from previous generations in higher regard than that of current players.

Plenty of people argue that Messi isn't as good as Maradona. It wasn't until the real Ronaldo has retired that people started to think he might be one of the greats.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
35,997
#57
This is what I meant earlier about romanticising the past. People tend to hold the achievements of people from previous generations in higher regard than that of current players.

Plenty of people argue that Messi isn't as good as Maradona. It wasn't until the real Ronaldo has retired that people started to think he might be one of the greats.
It was only when he retired that people thought he might be one of the greats? That is a joke. Him and baggio were class and everyone knew it. Not as good as messi or ronaldo but still great.

People think maradona is better than messi for a simple reason. He was a winner and did it for many different teams. Messi has only really done it with barcelona which is an uber giant in football.
 

Gbspurs

Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
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Jan 27, 2011
Messages
21,787
#58
It was only when he retired that people thought he might be one of the greats? That is a joke. Him and baggio were class and everyone knew it. Not as good as messi or ronaldo but still great.

People think maradona is better than messi for a simple reason. He was a winner and did it for many different teams. Messi has only really done it with barcelona which is an uber giant in football.
I remember watching the 2002 would cup and people talking about Ronaldo like he was a washed up old drunk. Hardly acted as if he was a living legend.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
35,997
#59
I remember watching the 2002 would cup and people talking about Ronaldo like he was a washed up old drunk. Hardly acted as if he was a living legend.
The one where he was top goalscorer with 8 goals? :confused: Watch the highlights of his goals and listen to the commentators wank themselves stupid over him.
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
5,591
#60
I think things are finely poised down at old Trafford? Do people think they will return to their spot as the most dominant club in the country? Or are they the next Liverpool?

On the pitch problems:

1. They have their worst squad in my memory
2. They could be left weak at GK, and looking a bit stupid if De Gea leaves.
3. 10-15 years worth of sub-par signings has left them with few players who look like improving much.
4. Rooney is fat, overrated and hasn't performed in a while.
5. Teams haven't feared them for some time now.

Off the pitch problems:
1. Rooney (worth a more detailed assessment later)
2. No Fergie
3. Almost inexplicable refusal of the top players to join them. (also worth a more detailed assessment)
4. City and Chelsea muscling United out of the market for the top players in the Premiership.
5. Chelsea and City probably doing everything they can behind the scenes to undermine them (eg. Kenyon to Chelsea)

So what's going on?

I think the biggest factor is Wayne Rooney. Don't forget that he has handed in two transfer requests, one in 2010 and then again at the end of the 12/13 season. The 2010 request played out as a much greater scandal, with Fergie ruthlessly hanging Rooney out to dry. Rooney's response pissed everyone off, most notably Evra and Vidic who spoke out against him in the media. Less than a week after the request Rooney signs a bumper new deal, and personally I think the after effects of this are still hurting United. The following few seasons Fergie and Rooney were obviously not on great terms. Fergie demonstrated a reluctance to play Rooney in the "star man" role, signing Van Persie, and relegating Rooney to the bench for important CL games. At the end of the '13 season Fergie confirms that rooney has requested to leave. New manager Moyes continues with Fergie's anti-Rooney narrative ("Rooney will be back up for RVP") until September when Fergie does a grovelling interview for MUTV in praise of Rooney. On the surface the issue has been resolved.

The first thing I wonder is how have Rooney's insults and subsequent pay rises affected the culture at United? Evra and Vidic in particular were very vocal about basically saying "Fuck off, Rooney." I don't think it is a co-incidence that those two players both left United at a time when they were desperately needed.

The second thing I suspect, is the possibility of a growing understanding among players that going to United will mean you are used as an accessory to make Rooney look better than he is.

The third thing, and rank outsider in the probability stakes, is that the relationship between Fergie and Rooney was actually non-existant to the extent that Rooney was refusing to play for him. Nobody mentions that keeping Rooney at United could have been a factor in Fergie's retirement, but the way it all played out makes me see it as a possibility. Without Rooney, United lose that "sweethearts of the FA" position, which imo has helped them a lot over the last 15 years.


The second massive question mark is over their transfer dealings.

United are the biggest institution in the country, can pay huge fees and huge wages, and on top of this have got back into the Champions League. I simply cannot understand why they are having so much trouble signing top players. Depay, Schneiderlin, and Martial, if he joins, may be players that are too good for us, but they are in no way the level of signing I would expect from United. I think something is going on.

Has the treatment of influential players like Evra and Vidic caused a belief that United is a bad place to go? Have Chelsea and City paid off agents to try and get players to prefer moves elsewhere? Have they pissed off super-agent Jorge Mendes?

Something is the reason and I don't think it is the usual type of reason.

Jorge Mendes is the agent who seems to own almost all of the players. Despite being involved in deals all over Europe, United is the only team who has it's own section on Mendes' wikipedia page. If you have a little look, you will see that he has been taking the piss out of them for quite some time now. Bringing Ronaldo to United 12 years ago was the last nice thing he did for them. Since them he has burdened them with Anderson and Nani in 2007, helped Real Madrid sign Ronaldo in 2009, and laughed his head off when flogging them Bebe for £7 million in 2010. He brought them De Gea in 2011 but now seems to have no interest in helping United keep him. Last season in my opinion showed a tremendous failure of United to "woo" Mendes after providing two of his players a lifeline in Di Maria and Falcao. United took a massive financial loss on Di Maria after just one year, and Mendes openly criticised their handling of Falcao, saying he should be starting more (clearly instead of Rooney.)


Personally I think United are at this stage now instead of 5 years ago due to mostly to good fortune. Abramovic and Mourinho's relationship became frosty, and bargain basement signings like Ben Haim and Sidwell helped United stay on top of Chelsea just when it looked like they were about to become the dominant force.

What United no longer have that they did have in the 90s is:
- the best team
- the most money
- the choice of any Premiership player that they wanted
- the status of being "the" premiership destination for top foreign players
- A legendary manager
- the fear that opposition teams always had when playing them
- the favour of the FA due to their core of important English players

That is a long, and imo very significant list of factors. I honestly see no signs that United will do anything more than make up the numbers for the foreseeable future.

Thoughts? It looks a mess over there to me.
Couldn't agree more.


Fucking hilarious.

They, more than any other team IMO, are reliant on CL qualification in order to keep pace with their debt management, and let's be honest, LVG ain't pulling up any trees atm.

I saw a pundit, last weekend, saying they NEED to win the PL...

I make him right, but anyone with eyes can see that is a pipe dream, they're not even a shoe in for top 4, based on the way they've been playing. Early days I know, but they'll have to improve exponentially to have a prayer.
 
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