Levy, ENIC and DC

[shelfboy68]

I’m surprised Poch has become such a “yes” man. In the interview with bianca Westwood he said “be brave” meant keep your best players and build the stadium. We all know that’s not what he meant. Which makes the contract signing and his calmness now slightly odd. Maybe he’s happy to pocket the £8.5m and have no major pressure on him. If we did come 6th would be get sacked, of course not. The whole summer narrative is very very odd and doesn’t add up. Still convinced he’s been told a buy out will happen in next 2 years which is why he appears so calm.

Or he has been party to an impressive Jedi mind trick from the master himself is the other alternative.

 

[LeParisien]

No evidence would contradict Poch’s actual words from the start of the window. He said he was hoping we’d be proactive in the market - sell unwanted players quickly and then bring players in that would help the squad. None of that happened.

I believe him when he says he is happy with the squad - but blaming Brexit is obviously bollocks. Levy is his boss and pays him handsomely, he’s not going to come out and slag him off as a fan would.

“No words would contradict Pochs actual words” and yet his own words at different times contradict each other.

You also choose to disregard some of his words, notably those he has made recently. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45132468

You are being selective in which comments you accord importance because it fits your narrative. In effect, no evidence would make you change your mind.

 

[Blackrat1299]

I am more concerned about the fact the transfer window is still open for another 19 days for the rest of Europe. What happens now, when heads can be turned, players become tempted and eventually move. How do teams replace those players. One of our principle players is being 'touted' by the media to RM. Another 3 weeks of this! What does DL say about this now.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Well we won against Newcastle so everything is back to normal.

Let's get this season underway.

 

[Spurrific]

“No words would contradict Pochs actual words” and yet his own words at different times contradict each other.

You also choose to disregard some of his words, notably those he has made recently. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45132468

You are being selective in which comments you accord importance because it fits your narrative. In effect, no evidence would make you change your mind.

Yeah, because he’s obviously putting a positive spin on it - he’s a good man manager. He’s hardly going to come out and say “the squad is shit and Levy fucked me over by not signing anybody”. I’m not being selective, at all - you are. You’re ignoring what he was saying the day before and on the day of the deadline. He was talking about how Brexit and other factors got in the way of us entering the market. He has never said he didn’t want any players, at any point.

It’s naive to think that what he says to the media after the fact completely conveys his feelings about the window.

 

[thfc1973]

Do you honestly believe we can challenge Man City for the title?

There's no one in the league who can. Liverpool have spent massively to try but we're in a 4 way fight for positions 2,3 & 4.

Do we have enough for top 4? Probably. Could we do with another 2-3 players. Probably.
Is it a disaster that we haven't signed anyone? No

With zero investment in the team I don't expect us to challenge the top 4 this season. I was never suggesting that we would win the title. I was suggesting that to compete we needed to invest. We will be lucky to get 5th this season based on the lack of investment.

 

[spursfan77]

When’s the statement?

I’m assuming there won’t be one this year.

 

[philip]

With zero investment in the team I don't expect us to challenge the top 4 this season. I was never suggesting that we would win the title. I was suggesting that to compete we needed to invest. We will be lucky to get 5th this season based on the lack of investment.

On what basis do you believe that we will slip below not only Liverpool but also one or both of, presumably Chelsea or Arsenal?

Our squad is surely no worse than last years.even if it's no better!

 

[SpursDave88]

The positive spin is that we still have a month to sell Jansen and N'Koudou. If we do that I expect we will take another look at Grealish and Zaha at the beginning of Jan.

If Palace are doing ok or Villa are outside the playoffs or FFP starts to bite perhaps we can freshen up the squad in Jan.

The optimist in me would say this was DLs plan all along.

 

[LeParisien]

Yeah, because he’s obviously putting a positive spin on it - he’s a good man manager. He’s hardly going to come out and say “the squad is shit and Levy fucked me over by not signing anybody”. I’m not being selective, at all - you are. You’re ignoring what he was saying the day before and on the day of the deadline. He was talking about how Brexit and other factors got in the way of us entering the market. He has never said he didn’t want any players, at any point.

It’s naive to think that what he says to the media after the fact completely conveys his feelings about the window.

He has said - in his book published last year and since - that if you can’t sign for the first XI then there is no point buying. It’s better to use youngsters on the bench. Many reasons for this including that it’s easier to manage their expectations.

For what it’s worth I think it is very hard to know what poch thinks because he says everything and it’s opposite. In the states he said he was very relaxed about not having signed anyone and then two days letter said he is a manager and can never be relaxed. He’s not easy to read at all.

Which is why you can’t have the confidence you claim to have in your opinion. There is a high degree of doubt - lots of plausible true feelings.

You are happy to sweep that aside as you cherry pick comments to suit your narrative. By your own admission you could not possibly be presented with evidence to dissuade you so I guess this conversation is futile.

 

[danielneeds]

The positive spin is that we still have a month to sell Jansen and N'Koudou. If we do that I expect we will take another look at Grealish and Zaha at the beginning of Jan.

If Palace are doing ok or Villa are outside the playoffs or FFP starts to bite perhaps we can freshen up the squad in Jan.

The optimist in me would say this was DLs plan all along.

I wouldn't do much in Jan, unless we have serious injuries. I'd want planning for next summer. Identify key targets, and wine and dine them and their agents. If we can shift Janssen, Nkoudou, and presumably Rose, we'll also have Vorm, Llorente and Dembele out of contract too. That's potentially 6 squad spots opened up, and 5 non-HG. That gives us a lot more room to bring players in next year.

 

[Shadydan]

The positive spin is that we still have a month to sell Jansen and N'Koudou. If we do that I expect we will take another look at Grealish and Zaha at the beginning of Jan.

If Palace are doing ok or Villa are outside the playoffs or FFP starts to bite perhaps we can freshen up the squad in Jan.

The optimist in me would say this was DLs plan all along.

No way Palace will let Zaha go in the middle of the season, Grealish maybe.

 

[[email protected]]

“No words would contradict Pochs actual words” and yet his own words at different times contradict each other.

You also choose to disregard some of his words, notably those he has made recently. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45132468

You are being selective in which comments you accord importance because it fits your narrative. In effect, no evidence would make you change your mind.

But of course you'd never do that?! You like to suggest that "narrative bias" is exclusively the domain of anti-Levy posters; not the pro-Levy brigade. How very pious of you. Well how about this comment from Pochetinno: "We cannot think we are the cleverest people in the world winning trophies spending small money". How does that accord with your narrative? You wouldn't "choose to disregard some of his words", surely?
And has it occurred to you that as an employee of the Club, Poch might be compelled to tow the Club's party line, to "read" from the Club's pre-prepared press release? To do anything but that would be a PR disaster. Is he really going to say, "Well my Chairman was the only "deal-broker" across 5 leagues and 98 clubs to fail to negotiate a SINGLE transfer, and now I've very little effective cover for key players that could be fucked after playing in a World Cup and having no pre-season"? Yeah you keep spinning the bullshit that Poch never really wanted money spent to improve the squad and it was always his intention to just promote the youth. That conveniently fits your narrative, doesn't it. Tu débarques, mon pote!

 

[shelfboy68]

The positive spin is that we still have a month to sell Jansen and N'Koudou. If we do that I expect we will take another look at Grealish and Zaha at the beginning of Jan.

If Palace are doing ok or Villa are outside the playoffs or FFP starts to bite perhaps we can freshen up the squad in Jan.

The optimist in me would say this was DLs plan all along.

Mate we do less business in January than we do in the summer traditionally so that is unlikely to change much like the rest of our business model.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

On what basis do you believe that we will slip below not only Liverpool but also one or both of, presumably Chelsea or Arsenal?

Our squad is surely no worse than last years.even if it's no better!

On the basis Chelsea were worse than the sum of their parts and have invested heavily, arsenal have got a new man in charge and new players making them likely better (hard to be worse)
Standing still is going backwards when everyone else is faster.

Imagine winning the 100m with a world record 9.9s and the exact same time the next year.
You haven't got slower so should you win?
Not if Usain Bolt runs a 9.58s next to you.

 

[danielneeds]

On the basis Chelsea were worse than the sum of their parts and have invested heavily, arsenal have got a new man in charge and new players making them likely better (hard to be worse)
Standing still is going backwards when everyone else is faster.

Imagine winning the 100m with a world record 9.9s and the exact same time the next year.
You haven't got slower so should you win?
Not if Usain Bolt runs a 9.58s next to you.

That argument assumes that new signings automatically make every team better every year. If that were the case, football would be in some sort of nirvana/utopia as all teams reach perfection. It's just not true. New signings can lose form and confidence in new surroundings, other players lose form. It's all a crap-shoot.

If we can avoid injuries in midfield, and a couple of younger players can contribute, we can still do very well.

 

[LeParisien]

But of course you'd never do that?! You like to suggest that "narrative bias" is exclusively the domain of anti-Levy posters; not the pro-Levy brigade. How very pious of you. Well how about this comment from Pochetinno: "We cannot think we are the cleverest people in the world winning trophies spending small money". How does that accord with your narrative? You wouldn't "choose to disregard some of his words", surely?
And has it occurred to you that as an employee of the Club, Poch might be compelled to tow the Club's party line, to "read" from the Club's pre-prepared press release? To do anything but that would be a PR disaster. Is he really going to say, "Well my Chairman was the only "deal-broker" across 5 leagues and 98 clubs to fail to negotiate a SINGLE transfer, and now I've very little effective cover for key players that could be fucked after playing in a World Cup and having no pre-season"? Yeah you keep spinning the bullshit that Poch never really wanted money spent to improve the squad and it was always his intention to just promote the youth. That conveniently fits your narrative, doesn't it. Tu débarques, mon pote!

Thanks for the reply. I was beginning to think you were only capable of downvoting my posts but it turns out you have an excellent command of not just one, but two languages. Je m’attendais pas à ça!

As I say in post 290, I think Poch is hard to read. He does not communicate a coherent set of expectations therefore nobody can expect him to fit a coherent narrative of theirs.

I cannot claim with any real certainty that poch is happy with signing no one.

Is it plausible, and is there evidence over a sustained period of time, to suggest this window is ok? Yes there is. But is there also strong evidence to suggest the opposite? Yes there is. And the quote you highlighted is the perfect example of that.

Conversely, you cannot claim with any real certainty that Poch is unhappy.

Is it plausible, and is there evidence over a sustained period of time, to suggest that Poch is unhappy despite his professionalism in press conferences? Yes there is. But is there also strong evidence to suggest the opposite? Yes there is.

HOWEVER the majority of people on the forum are unhappy with no signings being made and are saying things like it is “obvious” that Poch is unhappy and putting a brave face on things. These things are said with great confidence when the evidence does not allow for that.

Comments of that sort are particularly dangerous because these unfounded arguments are used to drive a wedge between levy and poch. Criticise the club as a whole or not - but the politics of division are not healthy.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the reply. I was beginning to think you were only capable of downvoting my posts but it turns out you have an excellent command of not just one, but two languages. Je m’attendais pas à ça!

As I say in post 290, I think Poch is hard to read. He does not communicate a coherent set of expectations therefore nobody can expect him to fit a coherent narrative of theirs.

I cannot claim with any real certainty that poch is happy with signing no one.

Is it plausible, and is there evidence over a sustained period of time, to suggest this window is ok? Yes there is. But is there also strong evidence to suggest the opposite? Yes there is. And the quote you highlighted is the perfect example of that.

Conversely, you cannot claim with any real certainty that Poch is unhappy.

Is it plausible, and is there evidence over a sustained period of time, to suggest that Poch is unhappy despite his professionalism in press conferences? Yes there is. But is there also strong evidence to suggest the opposite? Yes there is.

HOWEVER the majority of people on the forum are unhappy with no signings being made and are saying things like it is “obvious” that Poch is unhappy and putting a brave face on things. These things are said with great confidence when the evidence does not allow for that.

Comments of that sort are particularly dangerous because these unfounded arguments are used to drive a wedge between levy and poch. Criticise the club as a whole or not - but the politics of division are not healthy.

Mate, for sure I agree with your general point that only Poch know definitively, how he feels about the lack of signings. We can all make an educated guess, but it would be just that; a guess. But I don't agree that the opinions of a group of strangers on an Internet forum could have any influence on the relationship between Poch and Levy; they certainly wouldn't serve "to drive a wedge between" them! The beautiful irony is that all our fiercely contested views count for shit in the eyes of the Club. I think they'd only listen to concerns if it hit them in the pocket. Didn't JJ say that the Club were in denial about the shitstorm this window has generated? I think if anything is likely to drive a wedge between Poch and Levy, it's our Chairman's failure the back our Manager in the transfer market, despite assurances to the contrary. Information from respected ITKs like ValenciaYid and Hercules asserts this is already a source of tension: nothing definitive, of course; just informed opinion. But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as just some angry anti-Levy propaganda. As for the "politics of division", they've existed ever since ENIC bought the Club, and are endemic in this site. Levy has always polarised opinion: some people think Levy is a genuine fan who wants only to build a Premiership challenging or even winning football team; others think he's more interested in developing an expensive piece of real estate that allows him to sell the Club at an enormous profit. I know what I think. And nothing Levy has done in this transfer window has challenged that view.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Thanks for the reply. I was beginning to think you were only capable of downvoting my posts but it turns out you have an excellent command of not just one, but two languages. Je m’attendais pas à ça!

As I say in post 290, I think Poch is hard to read. He does not communicate a coherent set of expectations therefore nobody can expect him to fit a coherent narrative of theirs.

I cannot claim with any real certainty that poch is happy with signing no one.

Is it plausible, and is there evidence over a sustained period of time, to suggest this window is ok? Yes there is. But is there also strong evidence to suggest the opposite? Yes there is. And the quote you highlighted is the perfect example of that.

Conversely, you cannot claim with any real certainty that Poch is unhappy.

Is it plausible, and is there evidence over a sustained period of time, to suggest that Poch is unhappy despite his professionalism in press conferences? Yes there is. But is there also strong evidence to suggest the opposite? Yes there is.

HOWEVER the majority of people on the forum are unhappy with no signings being made and are saying things like it is “obvious” that Poch is unhappy and putting a brave face on things. These things are said with great confidence when the evidence does not allow for that.

Comments of that sort are particularly dangerous because these unfounded arguments are used to drive a wedge between levy and poch. Criticise the club as a whole or not - but the politics of division are not healthy.

You need to use common sense

 

[LeParisien]

Mate, for sure I agree with your general point that only Poch know definitively, how he feels about the lack of signings. We can all make an educated guess, but it would be just that; a guess. But I don't agree that the opinions of a group of strangers on an Internet forum could have any influence on the relationship between Poch and Levy; they certainly wouldn't serve "to drive a wedge between" them! The beautiful irony is that all our fiercely contested views count for shit in the eyes of the Club. I think they'd only listen to concerns if it hit them in the pocket. Didn't JJ say that the Club were in denial about the shitstorm this window has generated? I think if anything is likely to drive a wedge between Poch and Levy, it's our Chairman's failure the back our Manager in the transfer market, despite assurances to the contrary. Information from respected ITKs like ValenciaYid and Hercules asserts this is already a source of tension: nothing definitive, of course; just informed opinion. But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as just some angry anti-Levy propaganda. As for the "politics of division", they've existed ever since ENIC bought the Club, and are endemic in this site. Levy has always polarised opinion: some people think Levy is a genuine fan who wants only to build a Premiership challenging or even winning football team; others think he's more interested in developing an expensive piece of real estate that allows him to sell the Club at an enormous profit. I know what I think. And nothing Levy has done in this transfer window has challenged that view.

I am clearly a fan of levy. You are seemingly not. That’s fine - I respect your well-expressed views and wouldn’t it be boring if we all agreed ...

As it happens I agree with pretty much everything you say in this post.

I am suspicious of the ability of itk to get us closer to the “truth” - whatever that means in the crazy word of football politics ?

I would also clarify that the wedge that many on this forum seek to drive between poch and levy exists only on this forum. As you say, I doubt they care much at all about what we say on here !! I did not want to imply that we are causing them to drift apart !!

Thanks for engaging in an intelligent manner !