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Levy plans to stay long term but must consider takeover bids

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,059
6,513
I agree we don't need it to compete for 4th. I said that we would need those things to compete for the title, but that's just my opinion. I think we have all that we need to be able to compete for 4th already.

And I totally agree that we have a different philosophy to the other five clubs. It appears to be the ENIC philosophy that investment in the squad will only happen within what can be afforded and we won't take a big financial risk on players. Having the new stadium means that (in theory) what we can afford increases dramatically and we can start to close that spending gap. If ENIC don't invest that money once it becomes available I think that would show a lack of ambition.

We're completely wasting our time talking about winning the league though. Guardiola and Klopp, and their funders, have moved it well out of our reach now. Only a tiny minority of posters on here do that.

I think, as I may have mentioned before, that the signings we do need to replace key players- to stay competitive in the lower half of the top six- are "affordable". But will ENIC speculate, or think their investment will continue to grow even if they don't? Only when the novelty of the stadium wears off, but the prices don't, and we're 6th, will they see the error of their ways...
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Do you know what links he has then? Or just guessing?
I don’t know. I think it’s great that he shares so much with us. Really rate Herc.

I just don’t think his previous comments over time are consistent with someone who has info from or very close to Poch.

My best judgement therefore is that his comment was opinion.

Happy to be put straight.
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,356
3,330
We're completely wasting our time talking about winning the league though. Guardiola and Klopp, and their funders, have moved it well out of our reach now. Only a tiny minority of posters on here do that.

I think, as I may have mentioned before, that the signings we do need to replace key players- to stay competitive in the lower half of the top six- are "affordable". But will ENIC speculate, or think their investment will continue to grow even if they don't? Only when the novelty of the stadium wears off, but the prices don't, and we're 6th, will they see the error of their ways...

100% agree with that. I wouldn't personally write off winning the league but it would certainly take a big old spending session which seems totally out of the ENIC model, so for all intents and purposes it won't happen.

The rest of it is still just conjecture though. That isn't a bad thing because otherwise this forum would be pretty boring, but I do think that some fans quote their own predictions as if they are fate. I agree that if we are paying top dollar (down the road) to see matches but are regularly finishing 6th in the league and see no considerable investment in the squad then we all have a right to complain loudly.

What I do know is that people have made the doom and gloom predictions throughout ENIC's reign, yet what we've seen is a steady improvement in our squad and our league position. Sure, we haven't won much and sure, the spending hasn't been as fast as many would have liked, but I do think it's a stretch to believe that we are all of a sudden going to drop off a performance cliff.
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,356
3,330
I actually agree with a lot of your post, except the last part, they chose not to buy players as it saved them money and risk, capital they could put more safely elsewhere. Also whilst their profit making is somewhat aligned to our success the reality is it isn't completely, you just have to see they stand to make a very healthy profit without adding to our trophy cabinet. Also probably the main gripe with myself and possibly other anti-Enicer's is that there have been multiple times over those years were we were crying out for some additions to give us that extra to see us over the line, that would have required $ risk but may have made the difference on many occassions between 1st and 2nd. The reality is 2nd still makes them plenty of cash, they clearly don't have the same ambitions for on field success or they would have striked many times whilst the iron was hot.

I agree with lots of your post as well. I suppose where the likes of you and I (and fans representing these same views) is that I don't see the idea of adding an extra couple of players who will make the difference as being such a concrete thing as some might.

I would have really like to see more aggressive spending when we had the Berbatov/Keane team, but thinking back we were actually signing quite a few players. Unfortunately some of them were Bent, Pav and Bentley and I guess that just shows the problem with spending on players... you simply don't know how they are going to turn out so it doesn't guarantee you anything.

We were spending lots but also losing our best players, seemingly without any possibility to sign them up to big contracts so they wouldn't want to leave. It's good to see that our financial caution has at least meant that we can start to offer those sorts of contracts to the likes of Kane and Poch, and hopefully our other big names soon.

Winning trophies won't make ENIC much more money - I completely agree with that. But being in the CL will, and having a team capable of qualifying for the CL means that you have a team capable of winning trophies. It doesn't guarantee it, but spending an extra £200m on what we have now wouldn't guarantee it either.

ENIC are going to make a tonne of money off Spurs because they have made it a better club than it was when they took over. I'm not just saying that Levy is a better chairman than Sugar, I'm saying that they have improved the playing staff, the facilities and our global exposure.

And if they don't start spending more on the first team now that the facilities are in place and I will be at the front of the line complaining about them!!
 

mill

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
10,385
37,100
I don’t know. I think it’s great that he shares so much with us. Really rate Herc.

I just don’t think his previous comments over time are consistent with someone who has info from or very close to Poch.

My best judgement therefore is that his comment was opinion.

Happy to be put straight.

Yet your last post seemed so sure
 

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2006
6,409
10,931
Just a few pages back in this thread you were slagging off another poster for being patronising and for not offering any counter arguments to your own post. Here you are doing both things yourself.

Debate is never pointless on these things, especially when your views are quite extreme. If you cannot find any common ground with others in a debate then it may mean that your own opinions are a bit wide of the mark. Even if you are admitting that you are stubborn enough to not be convinced any other way (regardless of arguments/evidence put forward) it's still worth debating because you might find some extra nuance that actually helps your own argument.

Anyway, if I'm to understand some of your previous posts I'm guessing that you believe the motivation of the new stadium to be boosting a property portfolio for ENIC. Would that be correct?

If so, would it not be easier for ENIC to boost their property portfolio by building luxury apartments, office buildings and exclusive casinos around London rather than building a new stadium? Especially considering that they already had a stadium in the first place.

Joe Lewis is one of the richest men in this country and runs a number of companies who specialise in commercial and residential property. He owns holiday resorts and golf clubs and office developments around the world. His ability to make money is enormous. So why would he need to squeeze money out of a football team to try and fund further property investment?
I would have thought by now my answer to your question would be self evident. In no other of Joe Lewis’ companies could he build a property portfolio without putting his hand in his pocket for a single penny. Absent the initial acquisition of shares and a dodgy rights issue where they screwed minority shareholders ENIC haven’t put in a penny to build a £2bn property portfolio. They have used operating cash flow to do this. Of course they could have just taken this cash flow out of the club and bought other property but I suspect even you might have been up in arms if they had been as blatant as this.

As to your first point I wasn’t being patronising I was avoiding being presumptive. Lightly has answered and I can respond to his reply if I so choose.
 

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2006
6,409
10,931
our waiting list started growing before a stadium was even put into thought, once Martin Jol turned us around. to grow as a business you have to cater for the extra. to have a 40-50k waiting list (ok a lot where bronze that just wanted to be able to get match tickets), is not much kop with a 36k stadium where 24-26k where season ticket holders. we are now heading into a 62k stadium 43k ST holders and if it was just about money he would of had it at less, because he could sell tickets over a season and make more money for 1 seat than he does about a ST holder.

if he and ENIC had the idea to do this stadium so they could sell up, they would of started it a lot earlier, why wait 5-6 years? you keep on and on that they will sell, as I said in 1 of the replies you won't answer because your too busy EVERY SINGLE CLUB IN THE COUNTRY HAS A PRICE, AND IS UP FOR SALE if they where offered the right money tomorrow. ENIC won't sell now because the development isn't finished. the trouble they do have is if in 2 years time the TV money does crash, they have no chance of ever getting 2b, and they won't get it while there is a debt over the club, especially with the increase in cost.

your right though, impossible to discus though. I know Levy has his faults and has f'd up big time on at least 3 transfer windows. yourself and a few others will never ever give the man any credit because your season ticket price, his failure to secure a sponsor and an even bigger failure to sign anyone this last window.
Your “logic” on the stadium is so staggering as to leave me speechless.

In the interests of balance I will repeat that I think Levy has done some genius things like dual shirt sponsorship, he was a massive upgrade on Sugar, is way better than most other PL chairmen e.g, the porn brothers or Kroenke. However he fails to live up to the club motto. At every point where we could push on and improve the squad he bottles it. Contrary to the views that have been ascribed to me I’m not calling for a galacticos approach I’d be very happy with an organic approach where we populate the academy with the best youth and then give them a pathway to the first team but we aren’t doing that. After Levy’s comments to the THST I’m still staggered that people can’t see just how big a fiasco the last TW was. By Levy’s own admission our manager expected player turnover this summer. Levy states that this didn’t happen as if it was caused by some freak natural event rather than it having anything to do with him wanting too high prices for our players for sale and offering too little for the players our manager wanted to acquire, all so he could hit the magical zero net spend.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Yet your last post seemed so sure
I am sure in my judgement that his posting history is inconsistent with someone who is close enough to Poch to be able to make the comment he made as itk.

Herc is someone who is often regarded as itk. I think it’s important for these posters to distinguish between the opinion they give as a fan and the information they pass on in good faith.

I think comments made with great certainty about matters where little relevant info is public are more likely to be construed as being itk. In this case it was probably opinion and greater care should have been taken.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
Your “logic” on the stadium is so staggering as to leave me speechless.

In the interests of balance I will repeat that I think Levy has done some genius things like dual shirt sponsorship, he was a massive upgrade on Sugar, is way better than most other PL chairmen e.g, the porn brothers or Kroenke. However he fails to live up to the club motto. At every point where we could push on and improve the squad he bottles it. Contrary to the views that have been ascribed to me I’m not calling for a galacticos approach I’d be very happy with an organic approach where we populate the academy with the best youth and then give them a pathway to the first team but we aren’t doing that. After Levy’s comments to the THST I’m still staggered that people can’t see just how big a fiasco the last TW was. By Levy’s own admission our manager expected player turnover this summer. Levy states that this didn’t happen as if it was caused by some freak natural event rather than it having anything to do with him wanting too high prices for our players for sale and offering too little for the players our manager wanted to acquire, all so he could hit the magical zero net spend.

I agree with what you say about our youth policy, and hope that we are now going to start paying our players more, it will mean when we find a special talent they will get more than we would pay before, to make the training facilities worth creating, though I'm sure the 1st team prefer them compared to Chigwell.

on the THST i've not seen the full notes, but as I have mentioned with my backing, I have also mentioned about F'ing up the transfer window. I'm not saying it is the case, but I think Levy took his eye off the ball and spent to much time worrying about the build. also the fact we failed to sell anyone didn't help, I wish I knew where to find it from near on when Poch 1st joined us, but I'm 99% sure he always said he doesn't like working with a too big a squad, and at the moment I think we have 28 players 2 out on loan and 1 on the injury table that I doubt will ever play for us again.

oh and even though it wasn't as much as he could of, and is somewhere in the last 1000 pages of the stadium thread, Joe Lewis did actually chuck 50m into the pot
 

mill

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
10,385
37,100
I am sure in my judgement that his posting history is inconsistent with someone who is close enough to Poch to be able to make the comment he made as itk.

Herc is someone who is often regarded as itk. I think it’s important for these posters to distinguish between the opinion they give as a fan and the information they pass on in good faith.

I think comments made with great certainty about matters where little relevant info is public are more likely to be construed as being itk. In this case it was probably opinion and greater care should have been taken.


He said similar about poch not being happy with the outcome of this window if it panned as it did numerous times towards the end of the window how’s that inconsistent with him not having such links?
 

dtxspurs

Welcome to the Good Life
Dec 28, 2017
11,234
46,574
He said similar about poch not being happy with the outcome of this window if it panned as it did numerous times towards the end of the window how’s that inconsistent with him not having such links?
Insane that people doubt that Poch would be upset over how the window transpired..
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
I've nicked this from the stadium thread, but if true, then don't expect ENIC to be selling in the near future

Don’t ask me why but I remember this itk from 2015 on COYS so let’s not completely write it off:

On 5/20/2015 at 4:42 AM, Atlanta Yid said:
What I do know is that Joe Lewis is a HUGE NFL fan he has tried to buy NFL teams in the past and has been turned down.
The main reason that he was turned down had something to do with how much he likes to gamble on the game.
The NFL does not take to kindly to gambling on sports when you are part of the game.
That being said Joe wants and has tried to get the NFL franchise in London he has been working on this deal for a long time.
He not only feels like it would be a great opportunity for him to own another sports team but it would grow the brand of Tottenham Hotspur.


(On another note, reading back through that thread on COYS which broke the NFL was how much of it was 100% spot on. It’s amazing).

and if it is true, then it will take around 9-10 years to happen due to the agreement already in place with the NFL.

so if ENIC are to continue, lets hope the stadium is a view to finally 1 day compete in the transfer market
 

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2006
6,409
10,931
I've nicked this from the stadium thread, but if true, then don't expect ENIC to be selling in the near future



and if it is true, then it will take around 9-10 years to happen due to the agreement already in place with the NFL.

so if ENIC are to continue, lets hope the stadium is a view to finally 1 day compete in the transfer market
I can categorically tell you that ENIC are trying to sell the club now, they aren’t waiting 10 years. This isn’t speculation, I personally know some of the people working on the sale, hence why I’m so confident about the £2bn price tag.
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
25,351
38,294
Your “logic” on the stadium is so staggering as to leave me speechless.

In the interests of balance I will repeat that I think Levy has done some genius things like dual shirt sponsorship, he was a massive upgrade on Sugar, is way better than most other PL chairmen e.g, the porn brothers or Kroenke. However he fails to live up to the club motto. At every point where we could push on and improve the squad he bottles it. Contrary to the views that have been ascribed to me I’m not calling for a galacticos approach I’d be very happy with an organic approach where we populate the academy with the best youth and then give them a pathway to the first team but we aren’t doing that. After Levy’s comments to the THST I’m still staggered that people can’t see just how big a fiasco the last TW was. By Levy’s own admission our manager expected player turnover this summer. Levy states that this didn’t happen as if it was caused by some freak natural event rather than it having anything to do with him wanting too high prices for our players for sale and offering too little for the players our manager wanted to acquire, all so he could hit the magical zero net spend.
How on earth could anyone disagree with this? Couldn't agree more.
 

cliff jones

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
4,059
6,513
I can categorically tell you that ENIC are trying to sell the club now, they aren’t waiting 10 years. This isn’t speculation, I personally know some of the people working on the sale, hence why I’m so confident about the £2bn price tag.

Khan's gotta be interested, in fact the two or their advisers have surely spoken
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,356
3,330
I would have thought by now my answer to your question would be self evident. In no other of Joe Lewis’ companies could he build a property portfolio without putting his hand in his pocket for a single penny. Absent the initial acquisition of shares and a dodgy rights issue where they screwed minority shareholders ENIC haven’t put in a penny to build a £2bn property portfolio. They have used operating cash flow to do this. Of course they could have just taken this cash flow out of the club and bought other property but I suspect even you might have been up in arms if they had been as blatant as this.

As to your first point I wasn’t being patronising I was avoiding being presumptive. Lightly has answered and I can respond to his reply if I so choose.

So I guess we agree that they aren't using Spurs expressly to build a property portfolio then. They bought a business and have used the profitability of that business to grow it - I completely agree with that idea.

It is the same idea as if Lewis were to buy a golf club and use the profits from that golf club to improve it and make it more profitable. Or to do the same with a holiday resort. Or take the profits from a host of office blocks and use them to fund the purchase of a new office block. Spurs are not the only profitable company that man owns, not by a long stretch.

They are choosing to use the money generated by Spurs to build things that will benefit Spurs... and by that same token things that will benefit themselves. They took the view that rather than spend 600m on players it would be better to spend 600m (and the rest probably!!) on the training ground and stadium. A big motivating factor (but not the only one) behind that is that it's a more secure investment that they will see a better ROI on when selling - I completely agree with that as well.

Had you (or a non-Levy-style person) been running the club for the past 18 years we would have spent all that money on player purchases and kept the old stadium and training facilities. We might have won the league a couple of times and a handful of domestic cups as well. We would have been more successful in footballing terms than Levy has been by miles. I concede that.

However, with the emergence of the oil money model of football ownership and then FFP, do you think that we could have sustained that challenge against the likes of Chelsea and City as well as the established clubs? In a 36k stadium could we ever compete on wages long-term? I would say that sustainability is another motivating factor that drives the bricks and mortar investments.

We are fast approaching the point at which there will be nothing left to spend money on but the squad, and there will be no excuses for why we cannot afford 100k+ wages. If Levy fails to invest heavily in the squad during the next 2 seasons I will be side by side with you calling against him.

But does it not seem right to show the owners a bit of trust until that happens? They have transformed the club whilst they have been here, not without hiccups and not as fast as some would have liked, but our development has been trending upwards for years. We are about to move into a stadium that they could have chosen not to build but which Spurs fans will be enjoying long after ENIC are gone. Let's see if they can put that final piece in the jigsaw.
 
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